Is Adam Gase the biggest scam in football???

Again, I'm going to say I dont think it's fair to call him a fraud or cheat and agree generally with what you're saying. To add some of my own thoughts:

No-one goes to the high pressure job of anyone here and ****s all over you. No-one dissects your moves down to the smallest details and throws you under the bus.

Hes NOT a great head coach. I think we call all agree on that. However, while I may find faults with his attitude and blame shifting it's pretty unfair to add these adjectives to his resume that some people are.

He is FAR from the worst coach in the NFL and far from the best too. Hell, hes probably closer to the worst than best but that doesnt invalidate the point.

 

Yes Fraud. And no that is not the same as him sabotaging the team. That means that he INTENTIONALY did things to cause the team to fail. I don't think that there is anyone on this board or anywhere else for that matter that believes that. Yes we did manage to win 7 games last year with more injuries than I have ever seen a team endure and he does deserve credit for that. But for someone that espouses his aggressive attacking offense I sure didn't see much of it in his game day coaching. Who in their right mind continually calls for 3rd and long play calls to be thrown 4 yards or more short of the sticks? Thats not aggressive, that's laying down. If we ever had any real propensity to attack downfield there may have been enough of a threat to make something like that work but teams knew we wouldn't so they continually snuffed that stuff out. And why did we seem to stop throwing those 15 yard out patterns to the sideline? That was actually something Tannehille did extremely well and it was rarely called. In fact most of his intermediate throws were decent enough and we just stopped. You draft a seam threat TE and you never throw a seam route?

So yes a fraud. He came as an offensive genius and QB whisperer based on two seasons of work with an all time great QB and it was shown, at least in Miami, to be a total fallacy. We shall see how it works out in NY with the Jets but it's looking like a disaster already. I don't wish him any ill will but lets not be revisionist here or accuse people of saying he sabotaged the team when no one has even implied it.

 

If a QB tends to make his living against poorer competition, and there are other QBs who play much better against better competition, you don’t think that comparison between those QBs is noteworthy? You don’t think that has direct implications for how those QBs would be expected to perform in the playoffs, when the competition is by definition better?

 

I actually stated I didn't think he was the "biggest scam" in football in post #36 but that you could justify labeling him a "scam":
https://www.thephins.com/threads/is-adam-gase-the-biggest-scam-in-football.94231/#post-3165075

So for me.. IF you have to use the word "scam" it means he can get an owner to believe in him despite evidence he's not HC material. And that has absolutely nothing to do with whether he wants to win or not, so "sabotage" is a quantum leap so to say..

On another note, it's really funny how "quantum leap" became part of our lexicon because it literally is one of the smallest leaps one can make, namely that of an electron going from one orbit in an atom to another lol, yet somehow means the opposite in colloquial speech.

Ross himself said that he fired Gase because:

In other words.. the results were not there. Say what you will about Ross but RESULTS are what matter to him, which is good, and Gase couldn't deliver. So yeah we do know why Gase was fired. And there's no sign from Gase that he thinks he did anything wrong here.

As far as what was likely to happen in NY? Dude.. I predicted dysfunction would happen in post #60:
https://www.thephins.com/threads/is-adam-gase-the-biggest-scam-in-football.94231/page-2#post-3165346

So to the degree that my assumptions are useful in making predictions about how the hiring of Gase would lead to dysfunction in the Jets organization I'd say recent events are providing evidence for them.

 

You are CERTIFIABLE!

 

LOL!

 

One season we won 10. I'm not taking about one season.

We were awful on third down. Absolutely awful. We threw shory of the sticks, and even Landry wasn't converting those.

 

Two things. #1, Gase was hired as the "QB Whisperer" because Ross believed Tannehill was the guy. Every other candidate said they would want to draft a new quarterback....every single one of them. Gase was the only one who said he could work with him and get RT to where he needs to be to win. Then RT busted out the 9 game win streak across two seasons...I think he was 10 of 11 before it all fell apart for him in the pocket?

In that regard, Gase did everything he possibly could have to make Tannehill a solid starter. Or are you saying that RT was mismanaged and he'll somehow light it up with his next team? Because that was one of Gase's two promises coming in.....fix the QB, put together an explosive offense that gains chunk yards. He did EXACTLY what he said he'd do.

Ross wanted Lamar Jackson in the 1st last season because Gase (and others) convinced him that RT wasn't going to 100% get there w/ injuries and regression in the pocket (after said injuries). Gase was also looking at QB's but he was overruled....we took Minkah instead. Good pick, I'm not complaining here at all....but if the coach and the owner wants a QB and we draft a safety, that points to the front office not being on the same page. I think the whole thing was tumbling down regardless if Gase stayed or left.

At the end of the day, it was Ross who was the scam since he insisted on Tannehill. He's making football decisions based on advice from people not actually in football, which is a common thread around the league but seemingly worse in Miami. 10, 6 and 7 wins is not bad considering the injuries we had on offense and Tannehill's limitations (before and after injury). No team is going to impress when they have to pick up a QB 2 weeks before preseason starts...it really was a no-win situation.

And no, I really don't think Gase did anything wrong. We were competitive despite high levels of dysfunction- I don't see how you could ask for much more.

 

I don't believe that at all. You have a link for that? Mike Shanahan was also interviewed and it was widely reported that one thing making Shanahan appealing to Ross was that he was against the RG3 trade and instead wanted to draft Tannehill. You're telling me that in the actual interview Shanahan said he didn't want Tannehill? I need clear evidence to believe that.

No he did NOT do exactly what he said he'd do. He didn't "fix the QB" and he certainly didn't "put together an explosive offense" (quite the opposite!). Gase was a failure in part because he believed he could win with Tannehill so the problem there isn't just a lack of talent on Tannehill's part, it's lack of ability to identify talent on Gase's part.

Ross takes a lot of advice from football experts, even Dan Marino. The problem is that it's hard to build a consistent winner in the NFL when everyone else is trying to do the same, and Ross so far hasn't shown he's any better than average either. Should we call him a "scam"? Depends on your definition of that. The way I used the term for Gase you couldn't use it for Ross because Ross never seemed to convince anyone he was a great owner on the football side of things while Gase seems to have convinced some owners that he's a great coach even without the results to back up that claim.

Being average is NOT being "competitive". It's what you do to get yourself fired. You don't see how a franchise could ask for more than being "average"? Maybe that's the problem here. The goal is to win the Super Bowl. The goal isn't to be average.

 

Uh, in that season with all those injuries, you think the goal was actually to win the Super Bowl? Come on, man. He's saying that to win what we did that season was pretty amazing. He's not saying the goal should be to be average.

 

No it wasn't amazing. I've already shown stats on injuries (post #54) in 2018 putting us in the middle of the pack. More importantly, our offensive AND defensive production went from average in 2016 to near bottom of the pack in 2017 and 2018. That's Gase that's responsible for that and is the complete opposite of being "competitive". Can't just keep pointing out how great Gase was in close games without also pointing out he was abysmal in points scored/allowed. Put it all together and you get average, just like Philbin and Sparano.

 

That's the main thing right there- can Tannehill be "fixed"? I guess by that we're saying that he's competent in the pocket, slides without panic and has a clean release after working thru his reads. Can that happen under any coach?

If your answer is yes, then sure...Gase was a fraud. But if your answer is no, then it's really, really hard to pin anything on Gase when a pre-requisite was to start Tannehill all three seasons. I mean, what are you supposed to identify when the owner says, "He's definitely the starter....can you win with him?"

Gase did win with him. Heck, we won with him last season until his typical December meltdown when teams wise up and collapse the pocket with the blitz. It's nothing new....we saw it for seven years with Ross's quarterback.

And this isn't me trying to bash Tannehill- it is what it is. Great arm, awesome talent, but flat out panics when he's about to be hit. I mean, I showed clips last season where he would close his eyes right before contact...that's not a "coachable moment". It's flat out panicking and I get it....he was punished behind that perpetual 2nd string line. But it's impossible to play scared in the NFL, especially at QB, and I genuinely believe Gase got everything he could out of that type of player.

Tannehill's ceiling is around that 92.0 mark across the course of a season UNLESS you get him an All-Pro line. I still think he could be a top 10 QB in Dallas or Indy...but it's clearly not what we had in Miami. And you're shifting far too much blame to Gase- he wasn't the coach, the owner and the GM. The front office blocked him on a lot but as I said, that's not happening in NY. We will have a very clear picture in the next 12-24 months.

 

My answer would be no, Tannehill IMO as a QB reached his ceiling. His stats could've been better with better surrounding cast, but I don't think you can "fix" his flaws. Not the point though regarding Gase. Gase (as you said) promised to "fix the QB" and he didn't. He probably believed he could, but he couldn't. As I said, that shows lack of talent evaluation ability on the part of Gase.

 

We just disagree then- far too many people were fired because Tannehill didn't develop. Head coaches, quarterback coaches, coordinators, and GMs all fell because of one player...and that's with most of the "talking heads" outside Miami saying Tannehill wasn't the guy for 5+ years.

At some point as the owner, you need to stop pointing fingers everywhere else and take a look in the mirror. Tannehill is just a little short of being an amazing QB, yet that little stuff can't be fixed. Ross has to take the brunt of that blame and it's why I just can't get excited for a new coach, GM, staff, QB, etc. If we're good in the next few years, it's more dumb luck on finding the right people than anything. It's certainly not due to Ross though....it's in spite of him.

 

I've blamed Ross a lot over the years so if you want me to acknowledge he shares greatly in the blame for where this franchise is, no question I agree with that. Like I said, the guy still hasn't demonstrated he can hire the right people to run the football side of things.

That's independent of absolving blame for Gase though. Gase failed too. Regarding Tannehill he should have just said he'll give Tannehill a fair chance for a year or so but if it fails they'll draft a new QB. And given how eager Ross was to hire Gase (before the interviews even!) because he was the "hot" candidate, Gase is still likely getting the job and could have drafted Mahomes or so in 2017 after the injury to Tannehill. But Gase believed in Tannehill even after 2016. That's not on Ross right there, that's on Gase.

And yes I think dumb luck is the main factor in determining whether you hit on a great coach.

 

You showed injuries amongst all units, both starters and subs together, if I recall. I don't care what your stats say, we lost 3/5ths of an oline 2 or 3 starting receivers, a starting QB, a starting Safety and a starting Corner I think.

Find me another team like that that was wildly successful.

 

They weren't out the whole year. Tannehill started 11 games, Gore 14, while Amendola, Stills, James and Tunsil all started 15 games. On offense it's basically Sitton (out 15 games) and Wilson (out 9 games) you can point to, and we had a 7-9 record.

Well.. another team with a 7-9 record in 2018 was the Redskins. Their starting QB Smith started 10 games, while only one starting WR (Doctson) didn't have a significant injury – Richardson was on IR 8 games and Crowder was out 8 games – with serious injuries to OL also in Scherff (IR 8 games). Furthermore, they lost many of their draft picks to injury (2nd rounder Guice out for year on IR to injury, 3rd rounder Christian played two games before IR, 4th rounder Apke played two games before IR, 7th rounder Quinn played one game before IR, UDFA Sims played one game before IR).

And they won 7 games, just like us. Seriously, you can't make a case our injury situation was worse. And that's just me looking at one team. Fans always think their team has it far worse when it comes to injury. I know a lot of Redskins fans though and their situation was arguably a lot worse than ours injury wise.

Anyway, you can compare injuries for teams using these pages:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2018_injuries.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/2018_injuries.htm

Note how much more red it is with the Skins.. even looking at just starters.

 

I think the part that you're missing though is that the Skins won 7 games. The question Resnor and I both asked was, "Find us a recent team that's done better with that much injury to starters." The answer is that it doesn't exist to my knowledge.

Philly went all the way without their QB1 but they also had a dominant line and a dominant run game (with a fairly stout defense as well and a great backup QB). The Pats have done well with backup QBs on limited action but they're the Pats and I don't think they even qualify for this conversation. Who else just on backup QB alone has really took the league by fire (forgetting the line, receiver, RB, CB and other key injuries)? No playoff teams come to mind.

One other thing- let's not forget we started 2017 with Tannehill playing "perfectly" in training camp (according to Gase), only to have to hire a starting QB in 24 hours time...two weeks before preseason. Has that ever happened before and yielded a favorable result? It was just a strange, one-off blow that teams can't fully prepare for (I still wish we stuck with my man Moore, but that's a different story).

Once again, I'm not saying Gase did a fantastic job all three seasons...but how much did you really expect any team to win under those circumstances? If Tannehill didn't completely choke that last month in 2018 we could have been a playoff team- that would have been incredible under the circumstances.

It's just one of those things that I think is bigger than the whole of the statistics.

 

No dude.. he asked me to "find another team that was wildly successful", meaning "as successful as Miami" given the context of the argument. You guys have been arguing what Gase did given the injuries to the team was amazing. I'm saying it's not. So I found another team that had similar success. Don't change the narrative!

Regardless, Philadelphia's injury filled season is another example, and they won 9 games!
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/2018_injuries.htm

Just look at all the red!!! They lost Mike Wallace week 3, Sproles was out 10 games, Darby on IR 8 games (out 9), Ajayi on IR 13 games, and McLeod on IR 13 games. Oh, and their starting QB Wentz also started 11 games.

So no, there was nothing "amazing" about what Gase did given our injuries. It's all fan perception.

 

I looked at that as well, but I don't know Philly well enough to know if they were starters or backups (obviously, Wallace and Sproles were starters, plus Ajayi was rotational). My narrative the entire time (going back several pages) was to name a team that has overcome the same or more and finished the season strong.

Again though, we COULD HAVE been a playoff team last year if RT didn't collapse so spectacularly. And I do agree with you, that's on Gase to some degree...I can't say more on a public forum since I have a little more insight there. Gase did want to draft a QB though and he was told no (as was Ross), and several of those naysayers are still in the building...grabbing their own QB while simultaneously pointing fingers elsewhere for last season. The front office was an absolute mess with lots of personality clashes, so I'm hoping a lot of that got sorted this off-season.

Despite what people think, culture starts at the top and trickles all the way down to the field level. A lot of folks have complained that they weren't supported in Miami in recent years and felt like their hands were always tied...that's about as far as I can go. It shouldn't be too hard to fill in the blanks though given who's left standing.

 

Owners? As in, more than one? That's kind of funny since he had multiple job offers within 24 hours of leaving Miami. Ross didn't even say that he wasn't head coaching material...not a single time.

That's funny hearing you say that after being one of his biggest fans for five straight years. People actually quit this forum over all the pro-RT stuff you were spewing with a few others....and now you're going to bash the guy? That's extremely childish.

So you were wrong on Philbin's high moral character instilling the right culture, you were wrong about Tannehill...and now you want to call someone the biggest scam in football after being 1 game under .500 for three seasons. Should we name the Miami head coaches who have done worse in the past two decades?

Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds? The "biggest scam in football" shouldn't have one of the best records in Miami since Shula...

 

No. I don't think 7 wins is wildly successful. I think winning 7 games when you probably should win 3 is overachieving. I think with the injuries we had, it should be expected to win like 3 games, 5 at best. Winning 7 told me that we won more than we should have. I'm saying, if you thought that season was an example of bad coaching, then find me a team that had similar injuries but won a ton of games.

 

DJ hasn't been pro Tannehill on like 7 years. He's consistently argued that Tannehill was below average, and didn't use his legs, and wasn't good at unscripted football.

 

It's funny how some of us are using completely opposite reasons to reach the same conclusions about Gase, though!

 

Given that Gase hasn't been demonstrably good in terms of his supposed calling card -- being a quarterback whisperer -- in any coaching capacity, it's pretty difficult in my opinion to make a case for his being an adequate coach in any other regard.

 

So I gave you the Redskins (arguably worse but still won 7) and Philly (arguably similar but won 9). And that's without much research. At minimum that should show you the Dolphins weren't in some extraordinary situation injury-wise.

And while I'll readily admit I can't do a proper statistical analysis to estimate win% given the type of injuries we had – that would require solving the problem of how to apportion credit among players which can't be done with current stats – none of the injury stats that we do have suggest that expected win% for the Dolphins should have been well below actual win%.

So I'm not going to say you're wrong that we should have won 3-5, but I will say there's no evidence you're right.

 

At one point under Gase, Tannehill was playing with first-round picks at left tackle, left guard, center, and right tackle, and a previous Pro Bowl player at right guard. That's as "all-pro" as an offensive line is going to get in the NFL.

That year Tannehill did no better than he did under Bill Lazor, and he nonetheless demonstrated his characteristic tendency of making his living against poorer competition in non-clutch situations.

Ryan Tannehill was a human experiment in attempting to improve a player's performance by enhancing every element of his surroundings. That experiment failed, and it was because Tannehill's individual ability was inadequate.

Additionally, "top-10 QB" doesn't have much meaning. The meaningful distinction among QBs occurs when you reach about the top six. QBs seven through 10 aren't meaningfully distinct from the average ones.

So making Tannehill "top-10" wouldn't have been meaningful for the team unless he was also top six, and I'd challenge anyone to make an argument for Tannehill's playing that well, under any conditions.

 

A lot of chest pounding about nothing! Adam Gase told the NY media he lost his job because he didn't win enough. I think that says it all; no whining or excuses. A lot of posters on this board can take a few lessons from Adam Gase!

I was, and still am an unabashed fan of Adam Gase; but if I want to hear about him I can go to the NY forums.

On these forums I want to hear about who we have now, not who is no longer here. I want to hear about how we are going about being an effective and competitive team this year. Adam Gase is Miami history now and I already know that history.

I want to see if we can achieve a winning future with what we have, not listen to whines about the past made by many posters who are clearly more into self-aggrandizement as opposed to participating in meaningfull discussions about player statistics and what they can and can't tell us.

The statistics are valuable because knowing what they really tell us can prepare us for evaluating our current team and its upcoming performance with a higher level of confidence and fewer arguments by the ignorant.

 

It's offseason with an unknown as HC, we already know Fitz isn't our solution at QB, we'd like to see Rosen but that will have to wait.. and seeing him in a regular season game is the only real source of useful info about whether he might be our solution at QB so there's just not any real useful info right now in determining how good/bad we'll be this year or next.

So far though I see no real red flags with Flores, but that's before he's even coached a single game lol. Game 1 don't care if we lose or not I'm most interested in seeing whether Flores can game plan for specific opponents like Belichick can (even if it's Belichick light that's better than what we've had), and whether he can adjust in-game.

But that's for the future.. right now not much to talk about except the usual topics lol.

 

I agree that I would love to talk about the current situation; however, I can also agree that there isn't much to talk about right now so most anything is fair game. Personally, I can't stand it during the off-season, but I would rather see the odd topic or two because it lets everyone know you are around and still breathing. Otherwise, we might have to reintroduce ourselves come training camp and you know how awkward that could be. ;-)

 

I disagree with the notion that the #6 QB is that much better than #10.

Not to defend Tannehill, I just think its absurd the lengths sone people go to make him worse than in reality.

If you are going to be unhappy until we have a top 6 QB you will be unhappy quite a while.

 

I believe that in reality Tannehill was slightly below average, overall. The statement about top-10 versus top-six QBs referred to how the league as a whole functions, not Tannehill specifically.

You could make the argument that any team would have a roughly average quarterback if he was ranked anywhere between about seventh and the low 20s in the league. That statement doesn’t refer to Tannehill, per se.

 

Your right.

I'm afraid I let my emotions get the best of me.

 

I agree. I'm afraid I am starting to become one of the lemmings that I complain about all the time. I need the seasons first game to start as soon as possible so there is at least some meat on the bone to talk about.

I would go so far as saying the it may take the first 5 or 6 games to establish who the key players are going to be and getting the team time to adjust to the new playbook in real game situations. I promise I won't complain if we win a lot during those 5 or 6 games.

 

lol! Give me time, win or lose, and I can find something to complain about so I won’t make any promises. :-)

 

The fact that teams can’t even do the basic analytics necessary to determine that the quarterbacks under his command didn’t do significantly better than their career norms is a testament to the ineptitude of the league as a whole in identifying coaching talent.

 

Tannehill had such a line last year for the first three games- and Tannehill was 3-0 before being injured (and most of the line being injured as well). Or are you talking about the Incognito years? Because back then, he was the most sacked in football (partly because of pocket presence, partly because of the line).

Look, I'm not trying to defend Tannehill....I've been neutral on him most of his career. I simply believe he has every skill you look for except the pocket presence. And that's why he was the ultimate tease.