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Discussion in 'Lounge' started by Silverphin, Sep 14, 2009.
What are your thoughts on this?
As the official spokeswolf for all wolves everywhere, I can honestly say, no sir, we don't like it.
I don't know enough about the situation to give a definitive answer, but it seems that they may have an overpopulation problem in certain areas and are looking for ways to reduce it. If that's the case, I don't have any problem with it.
Anyone want to guess on my stance?????????
are you calling me fat?
and now you're...lippy
for gay marriage?
I'm a hunter, but I only shoot what I intend to eat.
Killing for sport is cruel in my mind. Unless anyone plans on eating the poor wolves, which won't happen, I am totally against it.
I am against killing any predator since the number of prey species does a good job of keeping their numbers in check. If there is limited food, predators produce less (or no) offspring in the following season.
Every time we target predators, we upset the balance between predator and prey and it is the prey populations, typically grazers, who suffer as a result. I'd rather see one deer harvested by a wolf or mountain lion than to see 5 fail to thrive in the winter because of a shortage of feed.
That said, I am not buying into that 20% number as being accurate. I live in the area and I know that many of the tags sold are for remote wilderness that few wolfs can easily be hunted in. The over selling of tags in remote areas is a method to make sure that at least some wolves are harvested in those areas.
That isn't always the case though, living in the country I see more and more coyotes ad mountain lions venturing closer and closer to homes and farms, steering away from the deer population and finding it easier to pick off a cow, horse or dog that is penned in. And adding a higher fence doesn't always solve the problem, a mountain lion can jump a fence with prey in its mouth that is equal to or less than it's own weight. When they encroach on populated areas, that's when you'll see more hunting of predators.
As far as the tags for remote areas, as you imply, it may just be a way to thin the population equally rather than addressing the problem in one area and allowing migration to undermine it. Again, I don't know the specifics, but that seems like the logical answer.
Against killing for sport.
I'm fine with Hunting if you intend to eat it.
Actually, the part you bolded is the easiest of my statements to prove. The Lotka-Volterra model has been around for quite some time and can accurately predict predator-prey cycling.
There is a good discussion here and here.
As for predators preying on domesticated cattle - yes, that does happen but the wolf does not know that cows aren't fair game.
Killing wolves and big cats has a more detrimental impact on herding and grazing animals than exists a benefit to cattle numbers. Wolfs and big cats will rarely challenge a healthy animal protected by a fence and a herd if there are other easier targets but if you kill off the wolves and big cats, you effectively reduce the number of healthy natural prey animals of those predators and that (see the chart below taken from here) causes an increase in predator populations.
I forgot to say in response to Mikes point about problem animals. I have no problem with baiting, trapping or killing problem animals but a region-wide hunt is asking for an imbalanced system.
I have absolutely no compunctions about hunting, nor do I begrudge hunters their activity. I hesitate to call it "sport," because it doesn't seem very "sporting" to me to shoot an animal with a high-powered rifle and a scope.
But no, I don't have any problem with hunting - for food.
You kill animals that you don't intend to eat, and I think a lot less of you.
And I am 100% dead-set against trapping of any sort.
It is cruel and barbaric, and should be considered beneath us as a species.
I agree and, of course, I meant trapping in the sense of using bait to trap then relocate problem animals.
Well I guess I am the a$$ of the group. Coyotes and wolves are keeping me awake lately which can live with but they are attacking pets in the area lately and I have two kids that play in my "yard" that are potentially lunch...guess I am off FD's Christmas list cause I will blow them away if they stray too close as will my wife Mrs. 2 cents Oakley and I am not going to eat a potentially rabid fox, mountain lion, coyote or wolf.............
If they threaten your lively hood thats a different story.
this is not meant to bash at all.....i have no opinion on the matter....but i always hear the "if they are hunting for food its fine" line......i understand if we are in 1700's.....but isnt it easier to go to the store? seriously...this is a honest question for hunters
But that adds another element to the equation that has to be dealt with in one way or another.
I understand the idea of balance, but when animals are straying into neighborhoods or acting more and more like people (lazy) and going for the farm animals instead of tracking and hunting, it's time to get out the shotgun and make it a non-issue.
I don't agree with that, they don't often challenge a herd, but fenced in animals that are grazing are a prime target. It's usually the newborns that are attacked, the full grown cows, horses, etc are wise enough to sense the danger and are large enough to either get away or do their best to defend themselves. Regardless, that's a big loss to farmers who make their living with these animals. And it seems like more and more of this is happening year after year.
As far as increase of imbalance, that's why the DEC does their yearly census. To make sure that it doesn't get out of hand.
I don't have a problem with them either, except for baiting, which is illegal here. I'll throw out a bucket of bacon grease or apples during the summer and early fall to capture pics on the trail cam, but once season rolls around it gives an unfair advantage IMO and turns hunting into the shooting fish in a barrel scenario. Unless you're talking about a different form of baiting.
Hi Sick. I am DEFINITELY not a hunter, yet my husband and some of his friends occassionally hunt for wild boar in Florida. (Yes, they cook it at bbq's, equally disgusting to me ;-) ) However, none of them actually NEED food. On the other hand, while I would never participate, there is somewhat of an equilibrium. The boar are not indiginious to Florida, and as the populations have grown, their existence has threatened many indiginous animals, as they rip up feeding grounds and habitats for small animals and birds and are a detriment to the water supply. There is a good program on the distruction wild boar have done in Florida on the Discovery Channel. Just something, as a person like I am who abhors (pun) hunting, that I self educated myself on.
oh i completley agree with the population control.....but when people defend hunting or say "i hate hunting, enless its for food" i just think its kinda weird sense you can go buy a nice bucket of chicken with all the fixins and save yourself the time
And that is starting to happen here in CNY as well. We never had any wild boar until a few years ago, some folks were farming them and a few got loose, now we have a growing population on our hands. From what I can see as far as hunting rules and limits, there is no bag limit, the state does not want a wild boar issue on their hands.
Oh and one attacked a couple near Syracuse, just another reason to get rid of them asap.
I guess, in an ideal world, but it saves families alot of money. When you hunt, all you're really paying for is the bullet in order to get a ton of meat that can feed a family for a while. In order to go out and eat fast food everyday, that can get pricey for some folks.
thanks bro.....ive really wondered that....
I can't speak for where you live, but out here one of the main reasons we see more and more mountain lions, wolves and coyotes encroaching into residential areas is, well, because we encroached on their area first.
As the housing boom did its thing, all the construction drove a lot of the prey population (aka, deer, rabbits, etc.) away thus, leaving the predator animals to go on search for food.
Plus, building houses into hillsides and venturing further and further for land development means that you are bound to end up with more wildlife as, like I already said, you are encroaching on what was essentially their turf.
I should preface this by saying that I am pretty much against hunting. I don't even like to fish. Don't get me wrong, i'll smooch a bug real good if its in my face and I have no problem eating the hell out of just about any bird (I very rarely eat red meat), but I am just not into killing things for any reason short of it being a dire one (i.e. life is in immediate danger, starving, or the animal shows itself to be a Jets fan...).
Of course, that's different. I'm sure you know I meant the traps and snares in which an animal suffers before dying.
What would you suggest then? Folks have to live somewhere and developed areas are becoming crowded.
What I've noticed in this area is that animals are becoming more brazen, this is farm country, there isn't much development or encroachment going on around here and the problem is getting worse year after year. It's not uncommon at all to go outside and see bear tracks 20 ft from your back door, 10 years ago you didn't really see them unless you went in the woods. It used to be that you would hear of a cow being killed by predators once every few years, now it seems like it's one or two a year and also an increase in dogs being attacked. Animals aren't stupid, they won't work for food if there is a free handout to be had. It's also not uncommon to see deer in someone's backyard eating their rose bushes, while I think that it's true that people are moving into the animals territory, it goes the other way just as much. I don't know what the answer to it is, people need to live somewhere.
Side note on boar/wild pigs:
They are one of the most adaptable animals in the world. A pig/hog is the only known mammal that can change the shape of its skull dependent on its environment. A farm pig let loose or escaped, if it survives in the wild, will in a year or two, be completely feral, from hair to tusks to head shape. Its where the creatures known as Hogzilla and other giant "boars" have come from. All that is in addition too the fact that some studies rate the pig/boars intelligence to be eclipsed by only humans/great apes & whales/dolphins.
I think it is safe to say that at this point, we, as a people, GROSSLY overbuilt. The supply is way out of whack to the demand, which proves it. As someone who makes a living in construction, my boss would probably kill me for saying it, but its true.
What tends to happen is instead of building OUT, developers will start building UP. Townhomes, apartments above commerce, etc. This seems to be a happy medium to help curb building into undeveloped lands and provide housing for people, especially in trying economic times.
Disturbance from land development is bound to happen regardless, but not at the rate it has been going. It should start slowing down over the next few years as everything starts to (hopefully) stabilize.
But, to be honest, I don't have a concrete answer on what to do. Mother Nature typically has a way of working these things out over time. I suspect, as long as we don't get too much in the way, this will be the case again.
On a sidenote, I am really upset that you got me to speak like an actual human and not resort to cracking poop and fart jokes. I have spent many a year developing and cultivating an image on these boards and I don't need YOU exposing me.
Keep your pig lovin' justifications out of this. I am SO calling Dateline NBC...
Ahh, that feels better.
Rarely are fenced herd animals not in a herd.
Here is an extreme example along the same line you are headed on the encroachment issue but I think this illustrates what I am getting from your message.
Don a black neopreme dive suit -- slather yourself with seal blood and take a swim anywhere on the Great Barrier Reef -- If you get unwanted attention from a great white shark, should you assume that the shark is at fault?
Killing that much of a population can disrupt the food chain and cause a domino effects of problems. Unless the wolves at their current numbers are threatening the numbers of other species, there is no reason to kill that many