You defend Henne because you have become emotionally involved in the player's performance and lost the ability to judge said player on an objective level, good or bad.
Chad Henne has never played anywhere near the level as Chad Pennington. Not even close. If Pennington were healthy and on this team, we'd be 2-1.
The 2010 Chargers would have to disagree with you. The quarterback has sooooo much more to do with the outcome of the game than anybody else on the field; it's immeasurable.[/QUOTE]I agree..... if you have a HOF Top 5 all time QB like Manning. I could make the exact same claim with a slight twist: "The 2007 Ravens are EXACTLY the proof I need when I say this game is all about the defense". Baltimore's defensive dynasty has won as many SBs and roughly as many games as the Colts with Peyton....... but the only difference is--- it's pretty difficult to lose an entire defense for a year to injury. IMO, with our personnel on defense and DC, we have a better shot at continuing to build an elite defense than finding the next Peyton Manning. Again, see 2010 Chargers. lol. Schaub seems like a pretty darn good QB in a great offense that puts up a lot of points. How did Houston finish last year? How were Brady's last 2 playoff games? 2 years in a row and defense prevailed over Tom despite his opposing QB being greatly inferior. Ask the 2010 Saints if they would've preferred a great team performance or Brees's 400 yard passing game during their playoff loss vs a 7-9 team with a 73 Rated QB. I believe there are more teams who have won a SB b/c they played great as a team rather than having their QB carry them an entire season. Just saying..... you still have to play great as a team if you want to win. Would I like a healthy Manning? Heck yes I would, but personally, I'd prefer to see us play well as a team and win as a team <considering the talent we have> before I'd want to bring in a QB for the purpose of atoning everyone else's poor & sloppy play.
I don't see myself as defending Henne. I defend against unfair criticism. Henne has received a great deal of that so it put me in the position to defend a player I have never liked all that much. Henne is what he is and that is almost exactly what my evaluation of him pre-draft expected him to be. He is a QB you can win with given enough talent and the right circumstances around him, but not an elite guy who can carry the team. The unfair criticism has come from the belief that all these other QBs in better circumstances are better.
He started off 0-2, with a horrible outing against Atlanta and a decent outing against the Colts in that game where the defense allowed 27 points in only 17 minutes of possession, and was tied at halftime 3-3 with the Chargers before having his arm blown up on the first drive of the 3rd quarter. I think it's a stretch to say 0-3. Just like it's a stretch to say that a QB with a 75 passer rating on the year 'outplayed' him. Not that it matters because I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree. Shocker there.
I was thinking about the way things are happening with the Dolphins and the eventual outcome. I don't believe Henne is an elite QB and he may never be anything but a serviceable QB. He has proven he can have an occasional good game and if any thing he has shown that his one major fault is consistency. It would be great to draft a 1st round sure bet QB who can come in make all of the great plays and carry the team on his back. But, being the devils advocate here, what guarantees do we have that this great QB is going to be that savior? Lets say we dump Henne because we believe he is one of the main problems and the new Franchise QB comes in and turns out to be a Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith or a JaMarcus Russell instead of a Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers or a Dan Marino. I am not saying to not draft a QB in the first round, but just don't pin all of your hopes on that one QB coming in and turning everything around, Hang on to Henne and let them compete, if he beats out Henne then we know we have something.
You know that magical season might have cost us some top tier talent.This team was 1-15 the previous year and we needed another draft picking in the top half of the draft not the bottom.I would trade that season in a second if we could be a contender now instead of 2008 when we were not as good as our record indicated.Of course these idiots probally would have picked a couple more of pat whites type players and we would still be in the same boat anyway.
You know what's not shocking? That you'll use some of the same excuses for Pennington that you argue against if it's regarding Henne. When your argument is hypocritical and seemingly biased, it's not hard to find a way to disagree. Just sayin. Excluding Penny's completely meaningless late 4th qtr TD drive vs Atlanta's prevent defense while trailing 19-0, Penny's overall 2009 QBR was 68.62 QBR..... so, yes, a QB with a 75 passer rating and better winning percentage DID outplay him. I don't recall you ever making this type of argument when Henne had a 27-17 lead vs Detroit with less than 5 minutes to play where Henne's QBR was 95.52 prior to the defense collapsing. **Where was your "defense blew a lead" argument in the Pitt game where Chad's passer rating was 102.7 including a come from behind score late in the 4th qtr, only to have the defense collapse and referee blow a call to give it right back? **Where was this argument when Miami blew a 17-14 lead vs NY (Braylon's 67 yard TD & a blocked punt leading to a FG) when Henne's QBR was 101.66 prior to our final drive? **Where was this argument when Henne gave us a chance to beat Houston 2 weeks ago? How many times in a game does he need to put us in position to score points b/c we're dropping TDs and missing FGs? If Marshall catches his TD pass and Carpenter hits his FGs, Miami has a 23-16 lead in the 4th qtr (and that's not including the dead drive from Thomas's fumble), and Henne's QBR would be 113.71 at that point. What's amusing is that------- here you are chastising Henne for not coming from behind during the final 38 seconds despite playing great up to that point, but you're calling Penny's performance "descent" despite having over 3 minutes and 2 timeouts to beat Indy one the game's final drive..... AND PENNY THREW A PICK TO END IT! What's also amusing is checking off "Average" in the "What if" Henne poll thread despite: 1. Henne posting a 121 QBR, 255 yds, and 1 TD before the defense folded.... vs Penny's 82.7 QBR, 132 yards, 0 TDs. 2. Rushing offense vs Cleve: 138 yards (20 was Henne's), 0 TDs...... rushing vs Indy: 239 yards, 2 TDs. *Insult to injury, you talk about the Cleveland game as if Henne lost in spite of Daniel Thomas's play, who, up to the last drive, had 95 yards & 0 TDs, which is nothing compared to what our ground game did vs Indy. Fortunately for Thomas, he's a RB and doesn't have to worry about atoning for his team's sloppy play during the final 38 seconds of a game. Where was this same excuse in 2010 when Henne had a 7-6 lead vs the Patriots AT HALFTIME (not tied 3-3), only to have our special teams blow up like Penny's arm and allow 14 points in the first 2 minutes of the 3rd quarter? You criticize Henne for not "scoring enough" in the redzone despite having our only 5 TDs, yet you're mentioning a 3-3 halftime tie like it's some great accomplishment. What about this idea--- how about the offense gains the ability to run the ball in the redzone (like Penny's 2008 ground game could) so defenses aren't afforded the luxury of keying on the pass when they already have the back of the endzone as an extra defender?
Problem is that Daunte Culpepper's "potential" date had long expired by the time we got him. Saying Chad Pennington is the best QB we've had since Dan Marino is a damning fact about how terrible we've handled the position. As for Chad, I'm still not sure he dosen't turn out to be a better QB than Pennington. He'll never be special but I see enough from Henne to believe he could pass Pennington's status seeing as Pennington was in no way special either. Henne's got better tools. If he just becomes more consistent he's there.
You've got to be kidding me with this. Manning IS the Colts. He's carried that franchise on his back and has hidden all their glaring issues for years now. Very similar to the cross Marino had to bear with a Dolphins roster full of issues during his tenure. You only have to look at what the Colts are doing now without Manning to realize just how good he is. I'd take a healthy Manning over any QB in the NFL except for maybe Aaron Rogers.
Can't agree there. With this OL Pennington would already have lost the use of both his shoulders or be dead altogether.
I agree as well, Coral. If my math is correct, Penny faced 5 legitimate 4th quarter come-back situations (trailing 15 pts or less) in 19 games..... He won only 1 of them. Henne faced 13 in 30 games and won 6 (includes the Pitt game), sent another into OT after a 15 pt comeback, and had another set up for OT but Carpenter missed the FG. There were also a few games where he actually came back and took a 4th quarter lead, only to have our defense and/or special teams give it right back. IMO Henne's a young devoping QB, not an experienced vet; however he's giving us chances to win, but we're not doing so. Yeah, he's missed some redzone shots, but he's also taken half as many shots in 3 games as he was allowed all of 2010. What's that say about Henning stunting his development? lol. If he were aided by the same ground support, clutch team play, and lead preservations that Penny was afforded most of 2008, there's no doubt in my mind we're not 2-1 while his passer rating is over 100. Through 3 games, Henne's combined QBR is 115.3 up until the moment the team fell apart each game. This includes Cleveland prior to the defense blowing the last-minute 4th quarter lead and NE prior to the Pats going up 31-17 in the 4th qtr (this excludes every pass thrown in garbage time). It also includes Henne's play up to the point in the Houston game where would've taken a 23-16 4th quarter lead if Marshall catches the TD and Carpenter makes his FGs. IMO there's no excuse for a guy who's playing at a 100+ QBR level to be thrust into 4th qtr come-back situations on a weekly basis. If that's the case, then the team around him can't be playing very well to begin with, and I'm left wondering why the team can't preserve a lead, run in the redzone, hold onto the ball, make FGs, and catch TD opportunities more than I'm wondering why the QB can't pull it out in the end after the team's sloppy play.
Henne has more physical tools but the mental ones are no where close to Pennington's. Color me surprised if Henne EVER becomes close to Pennington for a year.
I'm curious, are you comparing Henne's performance thus far to Pennington's far above average season as a 10 yr vet? If that's the case then you'd be equally surprised at Penne's performance in 2008 b/c he had never come close to doing anything like that before.
Heck, in "Penny's" 11 wins (2008): -defense held opponents to 14 pts/game. -ground game averaged 140 yards/game with 12 TDs. -defense had 2 pick 6's. -3 wins with the offense scoring only 1 TD. -3 times the defense created 4 turnovers, and twice created 3. -In the 4 games they didn't create any turnovers, they still held opponents to 15 pts/game. So far in 3 games: -given up 26 pts/game. - 0 rushing TDs. (except QB) -no defensive or ST points. -created 2 turnovers. -in the 1 game we didn't create any turnovers, we allowed 23 pts.
Henne threw a terrible pass to an open Brandon Marshall for an INT. 3 incompletions. I looked at the replays. He's not a good Quarterback.
So it's now 3 incompletions? What happened to the 4th? Did you happen to freeze the play at exactly 32.5 seconds? (at NFL.com game highlights of the INT) What are your thoughts about Jerry, Pouncey, Incognito, 2 Dlinemen, and a referee clogged in the middle impeding Henne's line of sight and passing lane on his throw to Brandon after going through his progressions and seeing that Bess, Hartline, and Gates are CLEARLY covered up?
What was your opinion on Haden blatantly holding onto the back of Marshall's jersey right before the pass was thrown?
You know it's tough to say he's not a good QB if you're just going by passer rating. If you do go by passer rating, the guy could easily have two less interceptions and for that matter he could have no picks even. He could have even more picks as well. Frankly when I watch Chad Henne I don't see a great number of bad throws. The passer rating isn't the end all stat for a QB. If Chad Henne - continues to improve in his understanding of the game - improves his footwork in the pocket - learns to throw the fade He can be a good quarterback. The vision aspect I don't know if he'll ever have. However I do feel the team is hurting him by having him in shot-gun formation. They should do themselves a favor an improve the OL blocking up front so that Henne can get the snap from under C where he gets the most time to overcome his lack of vision.
So you hate losing, so does the rest of us. What I don't understand is, if you hate it so much, why root for a guy who's a big part of the losing with his inability to score TD's in the redzone, convert third downs, or play even average in the 4th quarter? To each their own I guess. Bring on 2-14 and Andrew Luck. I'm tired of losing because of ****ty QB's. Been that way far too long.
Reggie Bush & Daniel Thomas? Are you tired of losing b/c our entire team plays poorly? Or is that aspect acceptable? *If we could actually create turnovers, we'd win games! *If we could run in the redzone, we'd win games! *If our defense held leads late in the 4th quarter, we'd win games! *If our defense could reduce the 104.0 Passer Rating it's currently allowing, we'd win games! And if we could do all 4 in the way we DID in 2008, we'd win 10+ games EASILY. *****GREAT TEAMS DO THIS STUFF, including the Patriots with Brady!!!! NE doesn't just excuse their ENTIRE TEAM'S play b/c they have Brady!!! They STILL play great TEAM football!! In 2010, the Pats led the NFL in Forced Turnovers (38), 2nd in rushing TDs (19), held QBs to an 81.2 QBR, and preserved leads. That's not including Special Teams. Our 2008 playoff team--- created 30 turnovers!!!!... had 18 rushing TDs... held QBs to a 77 QBR..... and preserved most of our 4th qtr leads. That's why Penny was able to play so well!!!! This year we've forced 3 turnovers in 2 games, 0 rushing TDs, give up 104 QBR, cant make FGs, drop TDs, have costly fumbles, and can't hold a lead. THAT'S WHY WE'RE LOSING!!!! Do you realize that only once every few years does A team with LESS THAN 20 forced turnovers make the playoffs? Teams that create turnovers win. In 2010: GB- 32, Pitt- 35, Philly- 34, Atlanta- 31, NE- 38, Jets- 30. In 2011: Balt (2-1)---10 Bills (3-0)--- 9 Det (3-0)----8 Sanf (2-1)-- 8 GB (3-0)-----7 Oak (2-1)----6 Hous (2-1)---6 NY J (2-1)---7 Tenn (2-1)---6 NY G (2-1) --6 **Miami (0-3)-- 2 (2nd to worst) Here's a novel idea: WIN A GAME AS A TEAM FOR ONCE!!
In 2008, our rushing offense had 18 TDs..... Penny had ONLY 19 passing. Henne is on pace to throw MORE. I didn't hear people complaining about Penny not scoring enough. You know why? Because we could run for TDs!!! Henne has 5 TDs. The Packers have 3 REDZONE RUSHING TDs!!!! The Buffalo offense that people are lauding Fitz for........ yeah, well that has 3 REDZONE RUSHING TDs, too!! Would people be complaining right now if we had 21 extra redzone points b/c of our ground game?!! I don't freakin think so!! Would we need to pass on 4th and 1 from the 1? I don't think so! Defenses that respect redzone rushing make redzone passing more effective!!!!! Since preseason this has been an issue.
I think you misunderstood me. I was just comparing their play and talents. If we had a healthy Pennington all season, we would be a much better team right now.
I respect your opinion on this but I respectfully disagree right now. Penny was in 5 4th qtr come from behind spots and won only 1 of them. That's a significantly lower percentage than Henne. He also had a ground game that ran for as many TDs as he passed for..... and a defense that created a lot of turnovers, limited the big pass play, held opponents to 14 PPG in 11 wins, and closed out 7 games for him. redzone TDs Penny (2008): 13 TDs in 49 attempts (26.5%) Henne (2011): 5 TDs in 22 attempts (22.3%) {This is including his rushing TD b/c it's still a TD, and it was based off the passing game} If Marshall doesn't drop his TD pass, Henne's at 27.2% Redzone rushing 2011: 9 attempts, 0 TDs. (0%) 2008: 55 attempts, 14 TDs. (25.5%) Notice Penny's 49 attempts in 16 games? He didn't have to pass a lot b/c we had 14 redzone rushing TDs. b/c we could run it in, defenses had to respect the redzone run more than they do this year which makes it easier to throw effectively in the redzone.
Well, I'm NOT a Henne defender, per se, but will say that dude has been doing his absolute top best to try and lead us to wins. Henne does not mind taking body shots, he also has lost the fear of throwing deep, not in love with the guy but credit where it is due.
With Pennington at QB, I doubt we would need any comeback attempts against Houston or Cleveland. Also, your stats are wrong. Pennington had 17 touchdowns in the red zone, not 13. He put the ball in the end zone. There's a reason Pennington was second in the MVP voting. If he were our QB, we would most likely be 2-1.
yes, he was 2nd in MVP voting b/c he was the QB on an 11-5 team vs the easiest schedule in the NFL...... and b/c QBs often receive entirely too much credit for their team's success. He's not Peyton Manning, thus he's not the reason we won 11 games. Not even close. He was a game manager for a team that limited opponents to an avg of 14 ppg in 11 wins, forced 22 turnovers in those wins, had 2 pick 6's in those wins, and rushed for 12 TDs in those wins. Our point totals for 5 of those 11 wins: 17, 17, 16, 16, 14. That's 5 low scoring wins despite Penny only throwing 4 combined TDs in them. Henne throws 4 in 3 games and some fans say he sucks because of it. We won b/c we were solid and consistent as a team. Where do you get the 17 TDs from in 2008? Everything I check shows 13.
What does that have to do with the fact that Henne sucks? Nothing. The bum is one of the worst QB's in the league on 3rd downs. One of the worst in the league in the redzone. One of the worst in the league in the 4th quarter.
He had the second highest QB rating in the NFL, the 8th most yards, 12th in touchdowns, and 6th in Yards per Attempt. All this with below average receivers and a below average line. The running game wasn't as great as you make it out to be, either. Pennington wasn't a "game manager". He was a legit top 10 QB. Thus, 2nd in MVP voting. We won because of Pennington. We weren't all that much better than we are now. Only difference is we had a better QB. I really don't see how you can't see that. I think I read it wrong on his profile page on ESPN. It is 13 with a 90.5 QB rating. Although Henne has been really good in the red zone in 2009 and 2010. He's been horrible this season, though.
lol. You realize he was one of the most successful 3rd down converters last year right? And when you look at this year's 3rd down numbers, be sure to add in 3 rushing first downs to that percentage, as well as Bess's missed 1st down after running backward. Again, play well as a team and you don't need to put a young QB in a new offense in come from behind situations on a weekly basis. It's that simple. Great teams do it. We don't.
Todd, Todd, Todd...my naive young friend. Don't you know better by now than to try and confuse these fine folks with cold hard facts when they already have their minds made up?
This guy---- with the jokes. ONLY 3 TIMES in Penny's career did he throw at least 2 more TD passes than INTs in a season. 1 of those was in Miami b/c of ALL THE REASONS I LISTED. When you're a QB on a good playing football team against the easiest defensive schedule in years, it's not hard to have 19 TDs against 7 INTs. Henne's already thrown half as many redzone passes in 3 games that Penny did ALL OF 2008!! That's b/c Penny didn't have to do much!!! They didn't need to lean on him as a crutch the way they do with Henne. What's it say when this staff calls Henne's number this often in the redzone? It says they trust Henne more to get the job done than the ground game. So if you wanna lay blame about redzone scoring, then place it where it belongs. On the ground game for not having ANY contribution. When we can freakin close out a game (like they did for Penny) so that young Henne doesn't have to throw risky late game passes, let me know. Penny's 2008 stats Last Two Minutes of Half: 34/54, 59.3%, 335 yards, 6.2 avg, 0 TD, 2 INT, 61.9 QBR You blaming a young QB in a new offense for not being able to atone for his team's poor play is entirely irrational (in my opinion). He's not veteran Tom Brady playing in his 12th year, but I get it bro. It's a lot easier to scapegoat a QB than it is to accept we're sloppy AS A TEAM and can't run in the redzone, cant hold onto the ball, can't hold onto TD passes, cant rush the passer, cant force TOs, can't hold a lead, can't kick FGs, and allows a 104.0 passer rating to opponents. If you do SOME of those things like MOST great teams do, then a YOUNG QB in a NEW SYSTEM who is playing solid during the bulk of his games will NOT be forced into constant come from behind situations in the first place. Do you know what a kneel at the end of a game is????
Where do you get this from? He's not yet reached 2nd full years of starting..... when you add that to being in the beginning of his 4th year, that's still considered young and developing.
I got it from facts. He was drafted in 2008. 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011. 4 years. He should be way further along than he is now, but unfortunately, he isn't. Your logic and "facts" are ridiculously flawed, btw.
