X Extension DONE!

"Two Tacos wrote:

10 sacks and 10 ints are not the same. If Baker is first team all pro and arguably the best LB in the NFL, he still won't have the leverage that X does as CB > LB. Maybe, if he led the NFL in sacks too. If that happens, then yes he could probably get more $.

You are not getting my point!

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

If he does, he does. He'll either get it or suffer the consequences of trying.

It's interesting that you didn't ask what happens if Baker rips an Achilles tendon while working out before training camp. Will the team honor his deal the way the Broncos did with JaJuan James?

The guy signed an extension to be the highest paid cb in the league correct?In what alternate reality do you think he will still be the highest paid cb a year or 2 later.Its called setting the market!And by the way he played in only 33 games the last 3 years.Be happy with what you get.
The dolphins would be stupid to pay him a dime more.Play out or contract or rot at home.That did wonders for levon bells career.

"pumpdogs wrote:

You are not getting my point!

No, I'm doing a combo of disagreeing with and dismissing it. I don't think that X's situation is as easily reproduced as you do. He is setting precedent for a truly elite player, not the vast majority of players. Most players would have very little leverage with his contract situation.

Here's another simple way of looking at this.
Let's assume that the Dolphins would love to keep Howard on their team and would love to pay him whatever he wants, all else being equal. Why would they just do that, then?

The answer is the cap.

The Dolphins cannot simply agree to pay Howard more, even if they want to, because that money is connected to a lot of other things.

That's no new revelation, of course, but then, that's the point.

The idea that Howard can sign a multi-year contract that he is happy with and then change his mind and want more - seeking the most money he can get - does show disloyalty to the team, because the existence of the cap means that the only way he can get that extra money may be to leave and go to another team instead.

That may be fine for him, but it is potentially very damaging to the team effort. He has effectively signed on to do a job and the Dolphins planned to count on him to do that job for them for that time, but now he's threatening to walk away from the job and there may not be someone else available to do it. The rest of the team may well be depending on him, and the whole effort, the whole project, may suffer and not be able to be done to standard, because of it.

There's more here than just money. There's the goal of winning games by building a balanced team in an environment with limited resources. Teams can't just pay one player more without letting other players go or paying them less. So if Howard really considers walking away and going to another team then that shows a real disloyalty to the Miami Dolphins, their efforts to win, and to the fans who want to see their team win.

I really hope he's committed to the team and willing to accept an honest offer from them rather than walk away and continue to build the team but if he walks away, then it's just greed.

"pumpdogs wrote:

You are not getting my point!

I don't think he gets anyone else's point!

To be fair, this might be a great chance to get rid of a big contract.

The only reason people like Xavien Howard are the INTs. Those 10 plays on their own make people like him. But what if he only generates 2 or 3 this year? Is he worth a ton of money? It's not like he's a shut-down CB. He's a good CB with exceptional ball skills.

What's more, the entire Dolphins defense feasted on a slew of bad QBs last season. While X did pick off Wilson, Mahomes and Allen, who says his 10 INTs weren't also partly to due with playing guys like Minshew, Darnold, Garoppolo, Flacco and whoever it was Cincy put out.

There's a reason he didn't win DPOY. I'm sorry but getting your hands on a ton of footballs doesn't make you a perfect player.

"DolphinGreg wrote:

To be fair, this might be a great chance to get rid of a big contract.

The only reason people like Xavien Howard are the INTs. Those 10 plays on their own make people like him. But what if he only generates 2 or 3 this year? Is he worth a ton of money? It's not like he's a shut-down CB. He's a good CB with exceptional ball skills.

What's more, the entire Dolphins defense feasted on a slew of bad QBs last season. While X did pick off Wilson, Mahomes and Allen, who says his 10 INTs weren't also partly to due with playing guys like Minshew, Darnold, Garoppolo, Flacco and whoever it was Cincy put out.

There's a reason he didn't win DPOY. I'm sorry but getting your hands on a ton of footballs doesn't make you a perfect player.

That has been rolling over in my mind since this whole thing has started.

"Galant wrote:

Here's another simple way of looking at this.
Let's assume that the Dolphins would love to keep Howard on their team and would love to pay him whatever he wants, all else being equal. Why would they just do that, then?

The answer is the cap.

The Dolphins cannot simply agree to pay Howard more, even if they want to, because that money is connected to a lot of other things.

That's no new revelation, of course, but then, that's the point.

The idea that Howard can sign a multi-year contract that he is happy with and then change his mind and want more - seeking the most money he can get - does show disloyalty to the team, because the existence of the cap means that the only way he can get that extra money may be to leave and go to another team instead.

That may be fine for him, but it is potentially very damaging to the team effort. He has effectively signed on to do a job and the Dolphins planned to count on him to do that job for them for that time, but now he's threatening to walk away from the job and there may not be someone else available to do it. The rest of the team may well be depending on him, and the whole effort, the whole project, may suffer and not be able to be done to standard, because of it.

There's more here than just money. There's the goal of winning games by building a balanced team in an environment with limited resources. Teams can't just pay one player more without letting other players go or paying them less. So if Howard really considers walking away and going to another team then that shows a real disloyalty to the Miami Dolphins, their efforts to win, and to the fans who want to see their team win.

I really hope he's committed to the team and willing to accept an honest offer from them rather than walk away and continue to build the team but if he walks away, then it's just greed.

The Dolphins have plenty of cap space. They have $60 million in cap space next year with only 3 players who are worth bigger contracts. An extra $3 or $4 million to Howard isn't going to hurt their cap that much.

"DolphinGreg wrote:

There's a reason he didn't win DPOY.

Yes. The reason being Aaron Donald, who, as a DEFENSIVE TACKLE, was putting up ridiculous sack numbers.

"DolphinGreg wrote:

To be fair, this might be a great chance to get rid of a big contract.

The only reason people like Xavien Howard are the INTs. Those 10 plays on their own make people like him. But what if he only generates 2 or 3 this year? Is he worth a ton of money? It's not like he's a shut-down CB. He's a good CB with exceptional ball skills.

What's more, the entire Dolphins defense feasted on a slew of bad QBs last season. While X did pick off Wilson, Mahomes and Allen, who says his 10 INTs weren't also partly to due with playing guys like Minshew, Darnold, Garoppolo, Flacco and whoever it was Cincy put out.

There's a reason he didn't win DPOY. I'm sorry but getting your hands on a ton of footballs doesn't make you a perfect player.

I agree- there's no way 10 picks per year is his "baseline" expectation for production. Not to take anything away from him because he is a great player, but to me this feels more like the Suh situation where the productivity can't match the price tag long-term.

I do believe X is one of the top corners in the league and I have no problem with him getting paid. But if he has 6 picks next season and only plays "above average" when he's on the field, then what? If we try to renegotiate the contract, he's going to want to walk. It's almost a no-win situation for Miami unless he shocks the world again next year and puts up ridiculous numbers. We all know that's not sustainable though for the next 3-5 seasons....teams just won't throw at him at all.

"Silverphin wrote:

Yes. The reason being Aaron Donald, who, as a DEFENSIVE TACKLE, was putting up ridiculous sack numbers.

Defenders who rush the passer and play at the point of attack (e.g. Donald, Watt, Mack, etc.) are guys who you can build an entire front-7 around and who really do dictate the flow of the game. Aaron Donald being a 1-man wrecking crew, it's hard to imagine a single CB being considered anywhere near as important, especially one on a team that plays a lot of 5- and 6-DB coverage!

In Howard's defense, 15 million a year might sound like a lot of money but, in a world of Lamborghinis and Bentleys, 15 million doesn't go but so far. I'm not sure about what point I was trying to make.

At first I was all for X getting a little raise to match Byron and maybe some more guaranteed money. With those two the back end of our defense is in good hands.

Now, I read a report that says he is upset other players are getting extended before he is paid. If that is true, and he is using that as his argument, trade him immediately. That's just a very childish way to handle your business. Especially after you already have a lucrative contract on the books.

"DolphinGreg wrote:

Defenders who rush the passer and play at the point of attack (e.g. Donald, Watt, Mack, etc.) are guys who you can build an entire front-7 around and who really do dictate the flow of the game. Aaron Donald being a 1-man wrecking crew, it's hard to imagine a single CB being considered anywhere near as important, especially one on a team that plays a lot of 5- and 6-DB coverage!

But we don't have an Aaron Donald. We have an Xavien Howard, who is the best player on the defense.

"KeyFin wrote:

I agree- there's no way 10 picks per year is his "baseline" expectation for production. Not to take anything away from him because he is a great player, but to me this feels more like the Suh situation where the productivity can't match the price tag long-term.

I do believe X is one of the top corners in the league and I have no problem with him getting paid. But if he has 6 picks next season and only plays "above average" when he's on the field, then what? If we try to renegotiate the contract, he's going to want to walk. It's almost a no-win situation for Miami unless he shocks the world again next year and puts up ridiculous numbers. We all know that's not sustainable though for the next 3-5 seasons....teams just won't throw at him at all.

I think it's more of a thing with Byron Jones TBH. Howard's looking across the field and seeing his teammate make more money and it's not sitting well with him.

Players are prideful and being "top dog" at the bank when you're "top dog" on the field means a lot to them. He's also seen Noah Igbinoghene enter the fray which is a clear signal that the team wants to be prepared in the event they might ever need to (or want to) cut ties with X.

This isn't so different than when an employer asks an existing employee to help train a new employee. The existing employees feels like they're transferring knowledge only to make themselves redundant and thus rarely want to help in that process.

This is just a sticky situation where the Dolphins were almost too aggressive in going after Byron Jones at the risk of what we got last year which is Xavien Howard rising to peak performance. Now X feels like the team is putting as much into replacing him as they are rewarding him.

Ideally Xavien would overlook the salary disparity but he's got a new agent in his ear and he's worked exceptionally hard to be the team's best defender. I think he just wants the reality of the contracts to match the reality of what's happening on the field.

I'm of the view that if the money is available and it's reasonable, the team should concede to making him happy. I just don't know what number he's imagining nor what effect(s) it might have on future signings. Those are issues for the GM.

"Silverphin wrote:

But we don't have an Aaron Donald. We have an Xavien Howard, who is the best player on the defense.

I don't know what point you're getting at.

The point is he should be paid vas such.

"DolphinGreg wrote:

I don't know what point you're getting at.

Reading about his displeasure with Jones making more money has me wondering... why are player salaries public knowledge anyway?

"Silverphin wrote:

The point is he should be paid vas such.

You have to elaborate. It's not clear based on 1-line posts whether you're for or against Xavien Howard making more money.

It's also not clear whether you're saying he's as important as Aaron Donald or not.

"Dan S wrote:

Reading about his displeasure with Jones making more money has me wondering... why are player salaries public knowledge anyway?

It's probably a good thing, right? In the end, salaries never decrease so with them being public, you can always point to something and say, 'pay me that much (or more).' Hence we get the "record-setting" contracts year after year.

"DolphinGreg wrote:

You have to elaborate. It's not clear based on 1-line posts whether you're for or against Xavien Howard making more money.

It's also not clear whether you're saying he's as important as Aaron Donald or not.

I'm for Xavien Howard making more money. He had quite and has led the league in interceptions twice. Even if he doesn't snag as many interceptions this season, if he's making QBs throw away from him, he's worth it.

As for Aaron Donald, it's a bit different. While I do think a great CB is as important as a great pass rusher since pass rushing can help with coverage and vice versa, a Defensive Tackle putting that kind of numbers over his career is extremely rare.

"Silverphin wrote:

The point is he should be paid vas such.

So the contract he signed two years ago, making him the highest paid CB in the league, is meaningless?

I mean, we see this every year or two with QBs, when the next big name QB gets his new contract, it's always now than the guy the year before, or two years before. If you want to renegotiate every freaking year, so that you're always the top paid, then stop signing multi year deals. Just sign one year deals, or hold out for more guaranteed money on your multi-year deal.

The Dolphins backed the Brinks truck up two years ago, now he's unhappy. Oh well.

"resnor wrote:

So the contract he signed two years ago, making him the highest paid CB in the league, is meaningless?

Right now, he's number six behind Byron Jones.

Do you believe that there are five corners better than Howard right now?

"Silverphin wrote:

Right now, he's number six behind Byron Jones.

Do you believe that there are five corners better than Howard right now?

No, I don't think there are 5 better corners than Howard, although I'd place Jones pretty darn close (less picks, tighter defender...different styles overall). But we can't control what other teams may pay those other corners either.

"KeyFin wrote:

No, I don't think there are 5 better corners than Howard, although I'd place Jones pretty darn close (less picks, tighter defender...different styles overall). But we can't control what other teams may pay those other corners either.

The Dolphins paid Jones.

The Dolphins paid a guy who is not playing as well more money.

Even you you didn't write it, it is one reason that QB analogy is very wrong. Because a quarterback would throw a hissy fit if a team brought in another quarterback and paid him more money. Heck Rodgers is doing just that and they just drafted one in the first round. Which the Dolphins also did.