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X Extension DONE!

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Jun 5, 2021.

  1. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see the point in trying to separate Xavien Howard from his representation.

    For one, we don't have any actual info on that relationship including what they're saying to each other. I can't go based on what we're making up.

    Second, why? Why even make a point to separate their interests? Xavien Howard can have all the input he wants from his agent, his family, his friends, etc. I don't care who's in his ear. He's a grown-up. Whatever he does is his choice.
     
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  2. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I think we can scratch the Saints off as a possible trade with the way things are looking right now for them… without Michael Thomas i have trouble seeing them win many games this coming season.. that first round pick is looking Top 5 right now.

    off topic i gotta say… im in full agreement with Sean Payton about the timing of Michael’s surgery.. i swear we are in a different era. This guy was on pace for all time greatness… but that doesnt matter to these kids, they got their money… chasing Rice is not important… it almost feels like his late surgery and missing games was 100% coordinated by him.
     
  3. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    It was all my old agents fault.
    That’s why I fired him.
    Now the Dolphins won’t give me what I want.

    But I dont want to hold out for my principle beliefs…. Because I don’t want to lose any of my money.

    Again it’s not my fault. I’m the victim of unfair Grier/Dolphins.

    * Seriously he might get my respect if he actually didn’t show up and took a stand on his principles.
    Showing up only because he doesn’t want to lose out on any money from his terrible/unfair contract that he can’t possibly play under… this is peak idiocy.
     
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  4. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    At the end of the day Howard's statement undermines the Dolphins ability to make a trade while also making him (X) look harder to deal with. Thus, I think it decreases the size of the offers Miami will get.

    At this point, I'm wondering if Miami doesn't just force him to play this year with the plan (and possible mutual agreement) that he gets cut/traded next year.

    It's probably in Howard's best interest to play out the 2021 season in Miami where he's likely to appear as the team's best CB again while making what money he can only to be cut outright so he can start negotiations from scratch with another team in 2022.

    I think that's the closest thing we have to a "win-win" right now.
     
  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not trying to separate him- at the end of the day, Howard makes the decisions and this is 100% on him. I was just pointing out that he probably hired the worst possible agent and the entire franchise is paying for that.
     
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  6. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't particularly care who the agents are. I don't see how some agents are good and some are bad. They will all have an antagonistic relationship to the franchises that employee their clients.

    Maybe you can school me on why this case is different, IDK? Personally, without knowing the guy or the details of particular discussions I don't want to say more than I know to be fact.
     
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  7. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't believe he can handle/wants the pressure of repeating what he did last year. He wants to capitalize now off it at all cost.
     
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  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This particular agent clashed with the Dolphins in the past over another contract and it turned out ugly for everyone involved. The short version of the story is that he aggressively pursued Howard and convinced him to fire his prior agent claiming he could get him a lot more money, when all he really wanted was revenge on the Dolphins.

    You don't hire a guy that your front office has a highly negative history with.
     
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  9. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, in his defense, he should want to capitalize when and where he can. His natural "age deadline" is fast approaching. If he can make an extra $5M just for asking, it's certainly worth it, even if it means playing a little hardball. What would you do for $5M?

    We should understand this is all perfectly natural. We should anticipate players doing this, especially as they become more financially aware. From their perspective it's the right thing to do. Players can ask for higher salaries and at worst, get traded.

    For the players, there's no downside. This is a team problem. If it helps to push the NFL into being a place where teams looking to win the Super Bowl have to do it with younger, cheaper players then so be it. That's probably better for teams like the Dolphins with more stable front offices. And it's more healthy in that teams who are rebuilding will naturally be more competitive, too.

    Embrace the NFL's evolution. You can't fight it anyway.
     
  10. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    At a minimum, you're beginning to shift the blame to the agent. Worse, you're beginning to mix what we know with what you personally suspect, which leads to the development of a narrative that will ultimately bias your future takes on this.

    By hiring his agent, Xavien Howard accepts all responsibilities for the motivations of the agent. We don't need to worry about who the agent is. Xavien Howard is the actor. If what you say is true and Howard has indeed been convinced by his agent to believe a certain narrative, then again, we're back to talking about Xavien Howard.

    Where the beliefs originally came from, I don't care. Could be the agent, his mom, his wife/gf, his friends, other players, his own interpretation. I don't see how it matters at this point.
     
  11. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't dispute any of the above. My beef is the way he's going about it publicly throwing a team mate and the FO under the bus.
    It's a "Give me what I want or I'll make a big stink/distraction while I'm here to get my money that I agreed to".
     
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  12. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would agree. It's a mistake of a move, or at least one he could've made a lot more effectively. I think his statements ultimately damaged the positions of both he and the Dolphins organization.

    This is precisely why you try and keep things behind closed doors. You do not want 20-something athletes out there speaking about their month-to-month frustrations. I remember what Louis CK said about some apparent op-ed he penned post-Trump. He said he immediately felt like a complete tool for doing it. He talked about how the very next day he regretted putting it out and how bad he felt for overstepping his mark.

    I think that sometimes in the moment people want to express their position. It's sort of natural that people want to feel understood. Unfortunately, being publically understood (while it might feel important) is not helpful to the bottom line. That's why these things take patience and discipline.

    I think both of us also kind of see it from Miami's perspective, too. Howard is not a perfect player. He's not the #1 CB in the NFL. He may not even be top-5. He's spent 2 years on a contract. The first year he pretty much spent on IR. Now, after 1 good year he's asking for a raise. And he's making a scene.

    I'm with you that this ultimately makes him look like a bad guy. He thinks he's being fair but in the public eye he doesn't look good as much as opportunistic.
     
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  13. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I get venting, I really do as I do a lot of it at work. I just don't agree with putting it out there for the world to see on social media. The comments will then make the rounds on sport shows, message boards etc. I'm old school like that and have no plans to change any time soon.
     
  14. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Once again, I can't feel sorry for Miami in this one. Yes, Howard signed the contract. But fact of the matter is, Howard is a Top 5 CB who is arguably the best in the league and they paid an inferior (albeit still great) CB a higher amount.

    Hopefully this gets resolved to where everyone is happy, but we can't act like the FO didn't fumble things on their end.
     
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  15. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Now Howard is sitting out with a minor injury during sustained during stretching. This is his professionalism? I used to like the guy but he's quickly becoming a POS. The more his antics play out the less he's worth and possibly other teams are seeing that he's a problem child.
     
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  16. M1NDCRlME

    M1NDCRlME Fear The Spear

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    If I'm Grier I'm already on the phone to Detroit. Id be telling them offer us what they think is fair and be done with it. Sixth rounder in 2028? Ok, cool, send over the paperwork. Is it petty? Absolutely. He wants a trade, fine he gets his trade, but its going to be to the worst team in the league with no chance of becoming good any time in the near future.
     
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  17. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Dolphins have one of the most reliable cover corners happily under contract long-term, a great ball-hawking CB on a team-friendly deal and an outstandingly athletic 1st round CB waiting in the wings all playing for a HC who elevates what DBs he has available.

    What exactly did they "fumble?"

    The Dolphins did exactly what they should've. They showed faith re-signing a player they drafted despite his injuries. They covered their bases should he not return to form. Now their kitchen is fully stocked.

    Again, what did they fumble here? Chris Grier's moves look good from where I sit. The very basis of Xavien Howard's complaints lay in the fact he's well aware the team probably won't need him next year and will likely get rid of him by cutting him. He's worried that if he gets injured this year he'll soon after be cut and won't be able to negotiate with his next team from a position of strength.

    And he's exactly right, LOL!

    In the chess match that is team building, Grier has begun to make Howard expendable. That's the very basis of Howard's unhappiness. He said so himself last offseason.

    The Dolphins have not fumbled anything. Quite the contrary, you should be saying that Grier's literally done too well for his own good. Except you can't do "too well" as a GM.

    Worst case, you end up cashing in some of your chips by trading guys away for future picks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
  18. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    upload_2021-7-29_13-18-37.png
     
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  19. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Howard needs to shut up and play IMO. I'm so sick of these NFL players making millions of dollars crying they're not making enough after putting pen to paper on a contract they agreed to. If you wanted financial security and up front cash then and you got it; you can't complain now. I get it; he's out performed it; at least last year anyways. What about the first two years though when he was hurt and didn't play great when he was on the field? Was he prepared to give some of that money back? Highly doubtful. If it's true that all he wanted was to move some money from the back end of the deal to now and he didn't want a whole new contract then maybe the FO has outplayed themselves here a bit. However I believe they're right to stick to their guns. My response to X would have been Yup; you out performed it last year but over the course of the deal you really haven't outperformed it. You were the highest paid defensive player at the time you signed the deal. The fact each year is different and salaries keep going up and we signed another top quality CB to play opposite of you (which really helps you and your stats if we're being honest) is irrelevant. That's what the market was at the time we signed him; it doesn't mean we perceive him as on a higher level than you; it's just a reflection of the business side and the market. You can't ask for a new deal every year.

    I get the flip side of it too though for the players; we expect them to honor their contracts but teams can cut them at will. I'm not sure what they can do about that though. They get the guaranteed cash up front in most cases like X did here; sure they don't get paid out on the duration of the deal after they get cut but... they're not playing for the team any longer so why would they get paid? In most cases they move on to another team and get paid again anyways.

    There's got to be a better way to handle these things though moving forward. I saw someone making a joke about the Ricky Williams deal a few pages back and I know people thought he was crazy but if I remember correctly it was basically a performance based deal wasn't it? I mean maybe that's not so crazy after all. Play well get paid more. Play not so good; you don't get the bigger bucks available. I don't know I'm just tired of stories like this.

    At the end of the day as much as I look at this and want to say OK X; get the hell out of here and shut up. I think we have to come to some sort of resolution if it's not too late (and maybe it already is with his trade request) but you can't keep tossing top talent out the door. Especially if it's a simple as restructuring the deal to move existing money around, but I have a hard time believing that's all X wanted out of this.

    All I know is that it sucks that we always seem to find ourselves in this position with top talent players and I'm tired of listening to players whine about wanting more money. It's why it's so important to find high character guys in the draft and FA so they remember it's not all about them.
     
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  20. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You want someone to explain their position and not make I, my, or me statements? Or, not to operate under the CBA? He wants to be traded because he wants more money. Under the current CBA if he doesn't show for training camp he would lose this year, and still have 4 years left on the contract, so if the holdout happens it will be after training camp. Even then, that would be tuff. It will tank his value. He is in a tough spot, ultimately he might have to hold out and risk it to get wait he wants, but that could mean making less money in the short term. He isn't young so that matters. One of the things he reportedly asked for was guaranteeing his 2022 salary. Seems like a no brainer for the best CB in the league. The Dolphins have asked many players to change signed contracts, to convert salary to bonus, make less money, etc... I don't understand the fans that are butt hurt that a player might do the same.
     
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  21. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    So if you were in Howard's position, and they signed an inferior CB to a richer contract, you'd just smile through it?
     
  22. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Oh, don't you know? It's only okay if the organization does it.
     
  23. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, I've never worked a job where I knew I was paid less than someone else who I would've accused of being "inferior," although TBH I can't remember the last time I honestly took a view that someone else was "inferior" to me. I've worked with less experienced people, but I wouldn't say that made them "inferior," merely cheaper. Likewise, I can think of many people with whom I've worked who made more than me, but I'll happily admit it was largely their experience and expertise that accounted for that.

    I can definitely think of people around my age in other lines of business who make higher salaries than me because it's simply more lucrative to be in their profession. I know people younger than me who make more money. I can't say I feel the least bit mad about that. Quite the contrary, I'm happy for them. Maybe that applies. Maybe it doesn't. I've never been the jealous type though, even when it comes to money. Thankfully, I've always earned enough to be perfectly content. I don't make too little. I don't make too much.

    As an educated and thoughtful person, I would try and understand the situation as it stood. I think your use of the word "inferior" in reference to Byron Jones says a lot about your view of the situation. Jones not only brought versatility to the position (having played FS) but also had the benefit of missing only 1 game in 5 seasons in Dallas meaning he was a much lower risk to sign. Xavien was not as positionally-flexible nor as reliable having missed 13 games in his 3 seasons in Miami. Plus, Jones signed his deal a year later than Howard.
     
  24. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Let me put it another way.

    Do you think Byron Jones is a better cornerback than Xavien Howard?
     
  25. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's a question for Brian Flores. Go ask him.
     
  26. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    I'll say again, the league should permit teams to honour contract guarantees away from the cap in cases where players go onto the PUP list or are traded away. The cap should be for active players only, allowing teams to remain as competitive as possible and avoid issues where players want guarantees because of their health, and teams want security about eating tons of cap space and then having the player get injured.
     
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  27. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That does seem smart.

    Why would they not at least do that for injuries I wonder? It seems like it would create more wiggle room for teams during negotiations. They could guarantee more for the players. What's the downside? I guess technically they might save some money but it sure makes negotiations a lot more hostile.
     
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  28. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking you.
     
  29. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    We overpaid for Jones… we paid him mostly because of his athletic ability… he is not a top 10 corner.
     
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  30. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    And that's how the ball was dropped.
     
  31. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Xavien Howard was a more impactful player last year.

    But I think Byron Jones was a more valuable player at the time of his signing. I think the two contracts reflect value as seen from the standpoint of the Miami Dolphins. I'm of the opinion that value isn't just about INTs and PDs but also availability and positional flexibility.

    Byron Jones had a missed-game rate of 1% when he signed his deal. He'd spent 5 years playing in the NFL and had played multiple positions at a very high level. He was coming into a situation where that kind of versatility and team-first attitude means a lot.

    By comparison, Xavien Howard's missed-game rate was almost 30%. He only had 3 years in the NFL and played exclusively 1 position. Moreover, Howard also had chronic knee issues which raised questions about his long-term future in the NFL and whether he'd even return as the same player he had been. How much should you offer a player who already has major injury concerns only 3 years into his playing career? And this isn't saying anything about the reports that Howard wasn't happy and had complained about his place in the early stages of the rebuild a la Minkah Fitzpatrick.

    Are you suggesting the Miami Dolphins should renegotiate every contract on a year-by-year basis depending on how players feel they played? How much does reliability factor in? What about the general attitude and personality of the player?

    And what if Howard has a bad 2021, is he going to feel obliged to renegotiate his contract down in preparation for the 2022 season?
     
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  32. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I'll give you the availability.

    How often was Byron used as a safety last year?
     
  33. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Under what conditions might the team have needed him to do so?

    Having the option to slide Jones around was always worth something (and still is). The fact the team spent a R1 pick on Noah Igbinoghene doesn't look all that smart until your high-profile CB starts complaining about money and asks for a trade. At that point having a qualified back-up looks pretty smart.

    I think you made it clear above that the real issue is you just don't like Byron Jones that much. I personally think you're over-rating Howard and under-rating Jones. I don't think this secondary needs Howard as much as you probably do. I' prefer to see him stay but I think your views on the situation are too simplistic to be accurate.

    Difference of opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
  34. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You missed most of the other questions he asked. Those a vital to the discussion. It's a little one sided as to your position.
     
  35. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Dude, on multiple occasions, you've underrated Xavien Howard as a player. Meanwhile, I've stated that Byron Jones is a great corner even as I also stated that he's not a better cornerback than Xavien Howard.

    If anything, one can make a case that you dislike Howard.
     
  36. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    And, as I said time and time again, I believe the Dolphins shouldn't have paid a Top 5 contract for a player that's not top 5.
     
  37. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But you pay up in free agency. There's a bonus there. And next year he won't be top 5 in pay.
     
  38. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Okay, so if we both appreciate Howard & Jones it comes down to risk.

    You think Howard's injuries history is all behind him? That's ultimately what the lack of guaranteed money is all about, an aging CB with health concerns. Byron Jones doesn't have those same concerns. I'm sorry Xavien, that's just the reality of the situation.

    Now, I would love to see Miami throw Howard a few million in guarantees and I've said that in this thread, but the 2 sides haven't come together which tells me Howard must be asking for more than is reasonable.

    I'm confident the Dolphins aren't going to kick one of their most high-profile defensive players to the curb over a couple million bucks of guaranteed / non-guaranteed money. This is a team that's been pretty willing to re-sign it's players. We've seen a lot of steady-Eddies get paid: McCain, Grant, etc.

    I don't think Chris Grier is going to play hard-ball with Howard over a couple million bucks in 2021. Either these are bigger bucks than Howard is letting on or Grier/Flores know Howard is replaceable. I just don't buy that Grier is unwilling to negotiate entirely.
     
  39. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It also sets a bad precedent IMO. At some point you have to make a stand.
     
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  40. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It should be pointed out that "top-5" is not a measure of anything.

    Chris Grier has to work a unique market each offseason looking at what's available, measuring that against his own vision and that of his coaches. He has to work off of what deals have been signed before and relate that to the unique demands of his team, both schematically and financially.

    Talking in terms of ESPN rankings when it comes to making actual business decisions is--and you have to admit this--just kind of silly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021

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