Its become a two way street. Granted, I've seen my fair share of bigotry from many on the religious side, so has the world. But, I've seen many angry Atheists as well. Hell i was one at one time. If we Atheists, are to value reason and logic, then we should realize that reason and logic dictates the least effective way to combat intolerance, hatred and fear is with intolerance, hatred and fear. An Atheist angry at the religious is no less silly than a Christian angry at an Atheist. Defend your beliefs of reason with reason.
The massive generalization of the title makes me doubt any of its reasoning. I am not afraid of Atheists. Some I engage in debate, some I ignore, some I pity, and some .... It goes on and on because I engage people not groups. The example of the parade was ridiculous. The author says they were respectful. In what world view is carrying a sign in a Christmas parade that says you are Atheists doesn't say "we think you folks are wrong"? That's not fear, that's anger and great saddness for the need to go out of your way to annoy/attack/disrespect another group! Fin D is correct though that some aspects of this have changed in recent years. At one time, there were active attacks on Atheists. Most of it verbal and some economic but attacks still. They continue but are much rarer now. Then in my lifetime there was a longer period of mutual avoidance. Oh in some cases there was mutual respect but largely it was avoidance. Now come folks from the Atheist side who openly attack and ridicule people of faith. A fellow in Frankenmuth MI took a baseball bat to a large outdoor Nativity scene on commercial property and caused $60K of damges, destroying a beautiful antique set. His reason? He was angry at folks who continued to believe in fairy tales. (The kind of disrespect you supported Eric in another thread! though certainly without advocating violence). I have a mandate from my God to "turn the other cheek" while there is no such secular ethic. Because some Christians have gotten both cheeks slapped repeatedly they may be afraid of those who would harm them but otherwise they go about trying to live lives as their faith and relationship with God dictate. BTW, I am going away for four days with my family on a little New Year's trip. I will not be back until Sunday and likely not online until Monday so any lack of an answer to comments about this post should not be viewed as anything except absence. Happy New Year to you all!
I guess everyone has different experiences but in my experience, Ive seen more athiest be confrontational about their views than I have christians. Not to say that I havent seen cristians be confrontational towards athiests, because I have. Most of the confrontational christians Ive been been around though, they are generally confrontational kind of people anyways who just claim christianity and use it to appear morally superior. ....Using christianity like that is like using God himself, and thats almost a form of blasphemy in some ways. Not at all christian.... Now that I think of it, most of the athiest Ive known that are confrontational about it, almost seem to claim science to build themselves as intellectually superior. Yet, just as some "christians" wrongly use christianity to their favor, some "athiest" use Science wrongly. After all, true Science is open for anything to be possible and will not present anything as fact until all available possibilites are proven one way or another. So apparently, no matter what side you choose in the matter if you are being confrotational to the other, you are more than likely being hypocritical to your own belief structure! LOL! Ok, that may not be entirely true....
Exactly. The problem is the human animal, is an emotional and often irrational beast. Now, as an Atheist, I've seen a lot of persecution of non-believers. I had a self described "devout Christian" boss, consider me in the same category as an actual crackhead that he also had working for him (that actually went on a bender and robbed our office), simply because I'm an Atheist. Point is I understand the anger. It is easy to be confrontational when you are part of the overwhelming minority. The majority of religious people I meet, are not confrontational about my "faith", they do however look at me and act as if I'm either a little crazy or just silly. I'd be lying if I said that didn't bother me from time to time. I have made a conscious decision to be above that sort of thing in recent years. I did that because I realized giving in to the anger is really no different than the religious giving in to theirs.
Hmm, for myself I think it is rather funny that Atheists would spend time wondering how much time Christians fill concerning themselves with Atheists, I'd suppose that comes from a certain intellectual conceit that generates from the view that Christians believe in fairy tales thusly Atheists are intellectually superior for believing in nothing.
Not quite. It stems from the fact that the religious far outnumber the Atheists and they wield a lot of power and often want more. Kind of like how a lot of us Americans that concern ourselves with politics are concerned about China. EDIT: When I say they want more power, that is not an indictment of the religious. Most people want more power. The point is they are people who wnat more power, who happen to be religious.
In this case I kind of sympathize with the Christians. Why should atheists want to march in a Christmas parade?
By seeking to garner power for themselves? Well, be that as it may, I think there is a inherent danger on both sides of the discussion when "them atheists' or "them Christians" is used as a blanket statement, that is not a call for a subtext for each and every time the terms are used, but suffice it to say "some" atheists and "some' Christians. For example I know a great number of atheists who have a Ayn Rand outlook and care not a whit about the religious of any stripe and would look upon such a march with a great swell of dramatic indifference.
As a person who has never been a Christian, I have celebrated Christmas every year since I have been born. Christmas is more than a religious holiday, it is a national holiday. I am sure I am not a rarity in this country. I know many agnostics and atheists, some who hate religion with a passion, that still celebrate Christmas.
I think it can be summed up in, "It doesn't matter what people believe, there will always be jerks among any group."
Well, will not have any invitations forthcoming for saying so however: Christians rightfully claim the mantle of truth Which is a claim that will lead to argumentation and exclusion and what have you. The one thing I have learned in the course of a lifetime is this, Faith is a gift, it is not easily come upon and that for me is why I have no mallet out to bang anyone over the head with as unless there are ears to hear, it will make no difference.
Eric, I have no idea why you have decided to make me the object of your interest, but so be it. Would you have said the Nazis marching in Skokie was not an "attack"? Or a Klan march in a black neighborhood? When an opposition group marches in someone else's parade it is always an attack. The attack may be subtle and non-violent but it always an attack. You supported the billboard with the wiseman which called for Christians to give up their myths. That is the same intolerance as knocking down a nativity display because it was a fairy tale. You did not advocate violence and I made that distinction. You personally may or may not have an ethic. What I said and still say is that any secular belief system has ethics only of their own making. There is no call from a Deity or mandate from a Faith structure which holds it to you. I may or may not choose to follow a "turn the other cheek" ethic but it will always be there for me imposed by my beliefs. You may choose to follow any or no ethic based solely on your own standards. That is a difference. The results may be identical, I have no idea, but the call to them and the internal structures of a person's beliefs will be different. Thank you, I had a very nice time away with my family.
Really? You compare it with that? Christians are not losing Christmas, Christians are not having Christmas taken away. Christians gave it away by making it a national holiday in a country with many faiths.
Certainly the Nazis and the Klan have performed a level of violence upon Jews and Blacks that it out of proportion but anytime a group joins someone else's parade it is an attack. I used an extreme example for contrast. What about Orangemen who want to march in St. Patrick's day celebrations or maybe closer, what if the folks who sponsered the "Do you want to change billboard" offering to help gay/lesbian persons "change" asked for a space in a gay pride parade? I would call that an attack as well and just as strongly oppose it. Christians never "gave up" Christmas. The secularizing society wants the trappings without the responsibility. I still celebrate it in a faith based fashion every year even to the point of having a costume for Nicholas, Bishop of Myra not the secular Santa Claus. I don't oppose Santa, I just prefer to deal with Christmas as a Christian not a secularist.
Which is your right....even though it's "our" holiday that you guys "borrowed". And I'm not saying that in a derogatory way, Ohio. You are a learned man, therefore I know you know that the entire holiday doesn't belong in December. It was only placed there in order to help convert Pagans by making it similar to our Yule holiday. Technically, the Christmas "season" belongs to us. Except for when their holidays actually occur.
More or less, Christ's Birth was most likely in September during a dual Sabbath/High Sabbath, however that does bring up an interesting question. Christians "know" our God had a birthdate, the same can be in no wise said of Paganism, even a soft Wiccanism of light v dark with the Earth being a nurturer. Which I always found odd as the Earth is anything but a Nurturing place while the Universe is arguably man centric, the Earth is more than happy (so to speak) to drive it's inhabitants to extinction.
If straight people or Christians marched in the gay pride parade, however their message was peace or celebration, then how is that an attack? Just because someone is an atheist does not mean that they are attacking Christians. Intent is the key and until the intent is proved to be an attack, there has been no attack. This is just a case where someone wants to create themselves the victim. One thing some Christians are really good about. Once Christians made it a national holiday, they gave it up. Even if that wasn't their intention, however given up the same. No matter how much they try to fight it, Christmas is now an everyone holiday. Plus Pagan did mention the fact that it was a stolen holiday to begin with. I have never been Christan and I have never been to a church service in my life. I still celebrate Christmas. What responsibility?
Odd, Mars is relative percentage points in difference in terms of environment as compared to the Earth, and yet Archeaologists are paid to study dead civilizations, and museums are filled with past "climax species" who all..are extinct...
I agree, joining the opposition's parade can be an "attack". But there are levels of seriousness of the attack, just as there are levels of faith involved in a Christmas parade. The one in Ocala, for example, is far from a serious Christmas ode. Basically businesses in the area use it to advertise by slapping together a float festooned with commercial style decorations. I suspect that is fairly typical across the country. As you've pointed out, there's a difference between the way the average person celebrates and someone like yourself celebrates. I submit if the parade is celebrating a commercialized version of Christmas, then an Atheist contingent (that is behaving) isn't really much of an attack. In some ways, the super devout should actually welcome that kind of an "attack"....enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing. Also, if the parade is sponsored by the local government, then it should be considered a holiday parade, in which case this wouldn't be classified as an attack.
Some who have survived millions of years. Everything dies. It is a part of life. You do not say a mother isn't nurturing because her children are going to die of old age.
Not "some" but Climaxx Species, the ones who literally "ruled the Earth", that same Earth promptly killed them off as completely as chopping the head off of a freshly caught trout. It is only Man in our arrogance who does not realize this is the outcome that the Earth has planned for "us". A massive switch in Global Temps to a ice age literally reduced mankinds' population to around 100k...but gosh, that could never happen again, the Earth is a nurturer..
Before you further insult Pagan's religion, maybe you should shine that same logic back on the Christian faith. Your god is far from a benevolent nurturer that cares for his people either, based on exactly the same "evidence" and interpretation.
They believe another global catastrophe reduced man down to around 300. Still doesn't mean Earth is not a nurturer. It is kind of looking at the end of empire strikes back and calling Star wars (the original) a tragedy. It comes from you using your perspective in a limiting way. Seems to happen with people who follow one god and believe in the battle of good and evil.
There were more than 300, but gosh, that darn Roman Catholic Church meant men could traffic in goods with consistency of outcomes..but they evil... Hmm, odd, the "nurturing Earth" theory reduced manking to what....05% of current population, in essence, an extinction event, and one compares that to film? Sorry Bro, Societies are illusions of a interglacial period.
It the documentary and other things I have read, it was around 300. I compare that to the passage of time. You are taking a single point in the grand scheme and using it to prove something. Also you are really all over the place.
A commercial parade does have a different understanding. I still think having a group in a parade which advertises that it is opposed to the beliefs of the group giving the parade is a bad idea, in bad taste, and intentionally confrontational. I am no victim nor is Christianity, though you are correct some folks look for victim status and both Christians and Atheists have had a long track record of doing that. I am not sure what having a religious holiday recognized by the state has to do with surrendering the holiday. Most of those decisions are simply pragmatic. Observers, even nominal ones, want the day off. It becomes less a sign of respect and more one of economic reality. As a kid I got the Jewish Holy Days of September off from school because the community was 80% Jewish and no one would have come to school otherwise! That is pragmatism and respect not surrender. And Pagan yes, Christianity did "steal" the date (though not the holiday). Whether we "stole" it from your ancestors or the Roman Saturnalia, I will leave to historians. In both cases we were trying to "inform" people of a different faith of the true light returning to the world Jesus the Christ. The Christian faith has a long tradition of taking events from other faiths and when possible "baptizing" them and finding a Christian meaning in them. And while it is likely a semantic argument, I would argue if you are not Christian you are not celebrating Christmas, but observing a commercial event. That is likely too fine a point for debate but my own personal twist.
I'll try to better explain the point about it being sponsored by the government. If it is sponsored by the government, then it must be inclusive of all beliefs. That is the law of the land. If it is inclusive then an Atheist portion or Jewish or even Muslim portion would not be an attack, because it should be representative of any and all recognized faiths.
LOL...bro, all due respect but that's a pretty soft way of saying it. I'm talking about the traditions in pretty much all your holidays. They were taken from Pagan traditions. The tree, wreaths, gifts, coloring eggs at Easter, etc. etc. All were not Christian traditions but Pagan ones that Christians adopted. As for the actual holiday...since it was put in December to be similar to our holiday of Yule, which signifies the birth of our God to our Goddess, you could say it "replaces" it. And "inform" is a nice way of saying "convert". You're correct. and that's because whether it's accepted or not by the Christian community, Christmas has become a seasonal commercial event now. I know many people of different faiths who still celebrate the "season". This in no way implies that you shouldn't celebrate the religious aspect of it. I'm just saying what has obviously become of the season in general. There's no "more or less about it". See what I wrote to Ohio. No. Christians 'know" a man named Jesus had a birth date. Since you're the only ones who believe him to be the Son of God, the "God" part is debatable, no? You, like ANY other faith, believe you have a God. I've said this many times before on these boards. That's why they call it "faith". Until your God or mine sits down on Oprah, performs a few miracles on live TV and tells everyone who he is, truly you know nothing but what you want to believe....just as I do. I'm trying to figure out your logic....coming from someone who believes in a God who has routinely slaughtered his followers in the Bible, and promises one last slaughter in the apocalypse.
OK, now I see your point. I think our difference here is between what is legal (certainly everyone has the legal right to march) and what is "right". I am not sure if my definition of "right" here is morality, respect, courtesy, or good taste? I remember when my Dad was a member of the local volunteer ambulance corps in NJ a lifetime ago, the Jewish members always took the shifts on Christmas and the Christian members always took the Jewish High Holy days. It was a sign of co-operation, respect, and teamwork. That is what I am advocating for here. Respect and a lack of confrontation for the sake of confrontation. I'll give you the inform=convert one. Not everyone in the past had as "enlightened" worldview as I have! I am not sure all of the ones you mention are "stolen" from Paganism. The colored eggs I believe come from an Eastern Orthodox tradition of Simon of Cyrene being an egg merchant. Gift giving comes from the Wisemen and i think that one belongs to everyone or no one. Many of the miracle stories in the early Christian tradition are "baptized" earlier legendary accounts. Some of the Islamic miracle stories follow the same pattern of taking an early tradition and reinterpreting it into their faith view. I would even guess that some Pagan rituals are follow ons of even earlier accounts. It has always fascinated me the way religious people take the holy sites of one group and when they have supplanted that group by conquest or through a repopulation after a natural event remake the holy site into one of their own. (Stonehenge would be an example, I believe) There is a Christian Church in Assisi which still has some of the Roman temple figures in its frieze. I have seen early proto-Jewish sites which have displaced even earlier bronze age shrines. It seems to be the way humans operate. Now brother Pagan, I have read your rants about the desecration of Halloween by people who disrespect your traditions and don't even know about them. We here are doing a little of the same. I don't expect everyone to become Christian, heck, some of the "Christians" I know would not even accept ME as a Christian because I have failed their private litmus test. (but I digress!) That said, I work hard at being somewhat knowledgeable and as respectful as I can of others beliefs. When I enter a mosque, I take off my shoes, when I enter a synagouge, I cover my head. A few years ago Georgetown University, A Jesuit instituion, made containers available in the cafeteria for Islamic students to take food back to their rooms during Ramadan. That way they could eat after sunset. When Lent arrived they did NOT make a meatless entree available on Fridays. There were complaints. NOT because they had respected Islam but because they had disrespected their own constituency. Since I have gotten to "know" you here on this board, Pagan, I have made a greater effort to notice and avoid disrespectful, common assumptions of your faith. That doesn't make me afriad of it anymore than it makes me "fear" Atheists. It is part of the way I witness to the world the 'truth' as I understand it of the faith I profess.
Ohio...I never said that what has become of Christmas is right. Hopefully you didn't take it that way. Right or wrong, that's just how it is. Very similar to what's happened to Halloween. Samhain is our New Year's, and the most holy day to us. However, it's now become something completely different, and nothing I say will change that....so we have to go by the tired old expression, "It is what it is."
