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Why do players lie?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Zod, Jan 5, 2009.

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  1. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Following the game yesterday, Ed Reed was asked a question about how he got the jump on Pennington's pass nearing the end of the third quarter. Do not misunderstand me here. Ed Reed is an excellent player. He seems to be headed for a HOF career. That is not the point. The point is what he said after the game. He said that upon viewing film "Pennington had the tendancy to stare down receivers. He doesn't look off defenders." It is my contention that this was a blatant lie. The fact is that Ed Reed benefited from an excellent coverage call. It was a disguised coverage call used against spread teams. It is a very effective coverage versus triple receiver formations.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80de086b

    I ask that you go to 3:05 in the video linked above and I will go through the coverage called. Be ready to use that pause/play button more than a few times.

    First: Forget about the linebacker on the near hashmark. It's not a linebacker. It's a linemen stunt. I think that is Ngata. He is part of a four man rush. Go straight down the hash mark toward the line of scrimmage. The next three men toward the far sideline are the other portion of a four man rush. Forget about them. They do not matter to the coverage.

    The key to this coverage is splitting the field in halves. One side is in man to man and the other side is in zone.

    Man to man side:
    On the far side of the field, you will see a receiver on the line of scrimmage. Do you see that DB in the receivers face? He's locked up in bump and run. He will not leave that receiver. Coming back to the ball you will see the next receiver in motion. I think it's Ricky Williams. The linebacker on the hashmark has him man to man. When the play begins, ANY receiver that crosses the field to that side will be locked up man to man with SOMEBODY from the secondary.

    The disquise:
    If you look at Ed Reed at 3:05 you will see him in the far endzone. This looks like Cover 2. It's not. He is already beginning his march to the middle of the field. He is suppose to be in the middle of the field. He has set a trap. Watch him move before the ball is ever snapped. He has no responsibility on that side of the field YET. His responsibility is a crosser (a receiver crossing the man/zone divider) in the post area.

    The zone side:
    Stay at 3:05 in the video. On the Ravens side of the 2 and 12 graphic you will see a linebacker. He is the Mike backer. His responsibility is the first crosser. He has taken an unusual alignment for this coverage to show something different from what is being played. His assignment goes like this: Eyes start on the QB and look to the zone side (near side) for the first crosser.

    Just beyond him is a DB standing on the number 10. His assignment is the flat. You can tell by his movements that he isn't going anywhere. He isn't going anywhere because he is reading receiver number 2 to receiver number 1. Both receivers on this side released off the ball. His zone is vacated. He's free to "pull the window" shut and move toward the hook zone with the receivers.

    The cornerback closest to the camera has the deep 1/3 to this side of the field. He's is also reading 2 to 1. He is gaining depth to his assignment based upon the release of 2 counting back from his sideline. Watch him. He's looking straight at number 2 and then gains depth.

    Both of the aforementioned players have a safety behind them. That safety has the far side deep 2/3 responsibility. Yes, the safety on this side of the field is actually responsible for help on the side where Ed Reed is standing at the beginning of the play.

    That leaves Ed Reed with only one responsibility. He is responsible for a crosser at the post. The second crosser in this case would have been number two from this side of the field. The key for the entire secondary responsible for the zone side is to read the release of number 2. As in all zone coverage, they have there eyes in the backfield from the snap. They rotate the eyes to number 2 because number 2 dictates certain route patterns (another story altogether).

    So the premise here is that Ed Reed was where he is suppose to be according to the coverage called. His receiver that he will be responsible for is crossing the field in what looks to be a post pattern. Reed is moving in that direction with his eyes on the QB. He didn't simply take off from the goalline based upon Chad Pennington. He was moving toward his responsibility.

    So Reed is asked the question about how he made that play. He says he just "watched Pennington's eyes". It is a lie. My question is why did he lie? Why not just say that the defensive coordinator simply made a good call? Why say that there was a deficiency in Pennington's play?
     
  2. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    Then I think you answered your own question. There is no way he says all of that to a reporter. No way does he want to clue anyone in to what they are doing on defense and what offenses dictate it.

    Let the opposing offensive coordinators figure it out.
     
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  3. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's hard for me to believe that Pennington went the entire season with only 7 picks b/c he had a tendency to stare down receivers. If he did it on that play fine but you can't get away with that all the time in the NFL without paying for it. Some of NFL networks pre game stuff was showing Pennington staring down safeties a few times to free up space and make plays. He just had a bad game. He was trying way too hard to make something happen.
     
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  4. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I don't know Zod....

    What's Reeds motivation for lying here?
    Players watch tape to see tendencies and weaknesses they can pick up on from certain players.

    I love what Penninton brought to the table for us this year but I certainly don't get why everyone seems to be so touchy on the subject of Pennington if anything negative is brought up. Every player has weaknesses and we certainly knew that Pennington was hardly an elite QB because of certain negative aspects of his game.

    If Reed says he saw a tendency in Pennington to stare down WR's on certain plays then I have no reason to think he's lying about that.
     
  5. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was at the game. He was staring down receivers all day long. I was *****ing to my dad about this the whole game.
     
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  6. mroz

    mroz F the Browns Club Member

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    He also said he saw that play numberous times on film.

    While you do a great job of breaking down the play Reed did not just play his responsibility he jumped the route. That tells me he either saw the play before, read Penny's eyes or both.
     
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  7. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Samphin,

    He isn't telling anything by saying Rex Ryan made a good coverage call. Opposing coaches are not dumb. They see the same things I just displayed. The coverage call (on film) isn't fooling anyone.

    The thing is that he made a play based upon a coverage call. That is where credit is due. Not only that but it doesn't throw another player under the bus neither. Here is what he did if the shoe was on the other foot:

    Say Pennington caught the coverage and threw to the far receiver in man to man. The receiver catches it. Pennington is asked about the throw after the game. He says, "I caught Ed Reed gambling as he always does. He hasn't figured out that you win some and you lose some when you gamble." Of course, that too would be a lie. But have you ever heard anything like that from a QB? No, they give credit to the coordinator who made the call and the receiver who made the play. None of which throws an opposing player under the bus for no good reason.
     
  8. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    I really don't think it matters, to be honest. If it is a lie, the videotape, coaches and players will be able to chalk it up to Ed Reed merely placating a reporter. In the end, that is all it is really, a quote for an article.

    A fairly innocuous at that.
     
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  9. Mkdave

    Mkdave New Member

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    Reed was actually asked the question 'what did you see on film about Pennington that allowed you to make that play'. Reed responded : 'On that second pick he was just staring right at the reciever' which he was, to be fair. He's looking that way before the ball is even snapped and doesn't look away until after the ball is thrown. He then continued 'looking at the tape, he don't look off too much because of the line and the rush, he's not worring about me he's worrying about the rush'. I'm not sure if he's criticizing your line, or crediting his own, but either way, he was just answering the question. He didn't go out of his way to throw Chad under a bus. He was just saying what he saw.

    Unless of course we are talking about 2 different interviews that ended up the same way, which is feasible, given there are only really two plays to talk about from Ed Reed's perspective.
     
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  10. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    I dunno about lying, but I heard something that said Reed knew the play the instant Ronnie? went into motion. Said he KNEW where the pass was going.
     
  11. Mkdave

    Mkdave New Member

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    Milton Keynes, England
    He also said that after his 107TD return he knew where the pass was going because of something Haruki Nakamura (our rookie safety) pointed out. Something about a wideout lining up at tight end. I'm not really sure what to make of it. I'm more than happy to give him the benefit of the doubt if he keeps picking off 2 passes a game.
     
  12. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Nope, that was the interview and I think you gave a fair assessment. Maybe it is me that is being a little too harsh with the word "lie" because my point is that he didn't make the play based upon film study. Yet as you point out, the question was about film.

    As I watched the replay yesterday, I knew Ed Reed did not just jump a route. Bad players take those risks out of assignment. Good players do not just leave a Cover 2 (as was shown pre-snap) because they thought they saw something. Well, maybe the Detroit Lions do but that's another story altogether.

    I saw the interview on TV last night and thought there was no way he was just freelancing based upon eye movement. So when I awoke this morning, I went looking for that play. What I saw was a man headed for a destination (the middle of the field) because that was his job on the play. It had nothing to do with anything seen on tape.

    In the end, my issue may just be with a reporter that asks a specific question and a player that doesn't know how to give specific answers. It just rubs me the wrong way. Then again, Ed Reed isn't playing football for his interviewing talents.

    I should be the last person criticising someone for interviewing prowess too. Two years ago I was an assistant at a very small high school that played an away game in a town so small you could drive through it in 2.3 seconds. Little did I know that the game was being televised locally on closed circuit television. A print reporter comes up to me after the game and just starts conversation. I'm not thinking "reporter" so I do not have any guard up as to what I will say. The reporter asks something about our injuries and the hits that promoted the injuries. I say something in the nature of "The players are dirty and that always points back to one direction - coaching." I'll never know if that made it to print but it was my one instance at answering questions from a reporter after a football game. In hindsight, I don't think I handled it all to well... :lol:
     
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  13. Mkdave

    Mkdave New Member

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    That's something I didn't think about actually. The guy interviewing him was Rodney Harrison, a fellow (ex)football player and safety, so maybe on some level it was just like him talking to one of his teamates or something, and that's why he was so openly critical of Chad.
     
  14. hard harry

    hard harry New Member

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    Being in the correct coverage is only part of it.This isn't Madden 09.The QB still goes through his reads.He has his tendencies. Ed Reed is a class guy and would not throw an opposing player "under the bus' as you say.It was an off the cuff response. Remember, these guys are atheletes, not diplomats. And "staring down" to Ed could be a "glance" to us. Players of his caliber see things a lot slower motion than even "good" players do. I know yesterday stung,been there. Don't worry. The loss will wear off soon then it'll be watching the playoffs( I hope you pull for us), free agency, the draft etc. Hang in there bro.
    HH
     
  15. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    The short answer is: He's human. Human's lie.
     
  16. hard harry

    hard harry New Member

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    Agree. Also to call somebody a liar without knowing if Reed did or didn't see wht he said he did is pretty harsh. And I also ask, Whats his motivation?
    HH
     
  17. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I do not know how pro coaches do the interview thing five and ten minutes after a ball game. My brain is fried after a football game. I cannot remember anything from a player perspective although I think to some degree it's a little more relaxed approach. For the coaches, the entire game is mental. Then five minutes later you are answering what seems to be silly questions. I will never understand how they do it. I assume they just focus upon being complimentary of the opposition and proud of their efforts in every response. I would attempt to give the most "drone like" interviews ever but based upon my one experience it would probably look more like.......

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX4ox7aX_wc"]YouTube - Jim Mora Final Saints Speech (old)[/ame]
     
  18. finserg

    finserg Well-Known Member

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    I think he is the best thing we had since fielder..but we need to know who going to be our future QB.
     
  19. New Era

    New Era Waterboy

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    You would be staring down WR's if you had all of 1.2 seconds to make a choice on who gets the ball....the double or triple coverage...oppps times up...

    The Oline was just plain and simple horrible. Then Chad made things worse by forcing throws. If I was the D-Cord for the Ravens. I would have done the same thing. Send the house from overloads and force Chad not to be CHAD!
     
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  20. vinivedivichi

    vinivedivichi New Member

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    What's the point of this thread?
     
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  21. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    It's a conversation. What's the point of your post?
     
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  22. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    [ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-196855389977276311"]3Z[/ame]

    For some reason the google video screen isn't opening here. Mouse over 3Z and click it to open. I'll leave this up for about 24 hrs....
     
  23. ATLFINFAN

    ATLFINFAN Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I heard Reed say in an interview today that he recognized that play from film work. When Ronnie or Ricky lined up in that spot and went in motion, CP always threw it to that spot. That was an awesome view of what watching tape can do for you.

    Was that the REAL truthful answer??? Dont know, but it sure sounds good.
     
  24. Bofin

    Bofin Member

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    thanks for the analysis of the play zod. the ravens d has given opposing teams problems for years and has at times been absolutely dominant. i appreciate the breakdown of that play and really would like to read more of that type of information on what teams are doing with specific formations and how they work. as to why ed would not just say it was a good scheme from our coordinator i have no idea, seems to be a good answer to me. maybe ed doesn't like rodney harrison and doesn't want to answer his questions. maybe he doesn't want to tell rodney anything about his defense cause he dislikes the pats. information is power
     
  25. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    A Different Perspective: Pennington,Dolphins Loss Validates Jets Release

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...t-defenses-validates-jets-reasons-for-release

     
  26. sugarcane

    sugarcane Member

    He remembered a play from film and went for it.The Oline was a joke all day and Chad was being forced.If you had the Balt D coming at you,you might do the same thing.Plus it was late in the game and Chad had been bruised quite a few times already. :)
     
  27. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Zod, I have some issues with this.

    The link provided doesn't take you to the right clip, as none are over a minute long - no biggie and this isn't an issue. I believe the clip you are referring to is this one -

    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80de086b

    The play I believe you are diagramming is the one going into the end zone at 3:05. Is that correct? I need to know if this is the clip before I continue to explain what my concerns are with this breakdown.

    I was at this game seated in section 456 upper endzone. I had a coaches tape view of the entire game essentially. This play occurred directly in front of me (I was in this end zone for reference).
     
  28. funkdat

    funkdat New Member

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    With Chad's lack of arm if he really had a tendancy to stare down receivers he would of been in and out of the NFL very fast.

    Reed plays with a front 7 that makes just about all QB's stare down WR's cuzz of the lack of time they have.They just don't have time to look at a FS or SS to keep them in one spot cuzz they know they don't have time to play head games with the DB's.

    When we go into the empty backfield and play with no one in the backfield Chad has been stareing down receivers all year cuzz most the time he's only making one read in that formation.That has more to do with the play itself then with Chad not trying to look people off, cuzz when we play in that formation the play is set up for Chad to get rid of the ball fast.If any of you have seen any Pats games in the past 7 years you should know what i'm talking about.

    So in other words Reed was 100% right when it comes to what Chad does in that formation.If you still don't think that, then Reed made his perception become his reality on Sunday.
     
  29. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    What I remember from Reed's on field interview was that he said something along the lines of...
    "I remembered that play from the film. If the back went in motion across the formation he (Pennington) wasn't throwing to him, he always threw to the left side.
    Anyway the back wasn't my guy"
    So basically he said he didn't have responsibility for the side of the field he started on and gambled that Pennington would throw to one of the receivers on the left. He just managed to pick the right guy.
    Pennington did a horrible job on that play as well as he never even gave the back a look, he stared straight at the bunch on the left the whole time.
     
  30. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Yes, you are correct. My link provided (which is edited now) is the wrong clip. I do not know how this happened. Either NFL.com changed something or I had too many browsers open at one time. What I really want to know is why the clip wasn't questioned before your post as 3:05 describes nothing in the link I provided....

    Go ahead with the concerns.....
     
  31. H8R

    H8R New Member

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    : ) Either way, I liked the outcome of his "Lie"
     
  32. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Maybe it changed later, after others had viewed it. The time line for that is unknown unfortunately.

    O.K.

    Firstly, if you count the players shown on the field, there are only 10 showing. Ed Reed isn't in the screen shot. Ed Reed is a essentially lined up on the goal line also, shading the inside shoulder of the slot receiver.

    In terms of the 1/3 coverage, zone and man stuff you are right - the Ravens did split the field. The corner on the top is showing inside leverage, which as you know is an indicator on man to man. The bottom half of the screen is as shown in terms of coverage. Samari Rolle is showing a deep 1/3 zone, the slot guy IIRC is Corey Ivy. He does look to take away the outside breaking route - he sets up that way when the ball is snapped. The Sam has Ricky all the way, and the Will is looking to see what Fasano is doing.

    This outline is correct, it is just the play of the safeties that is mixed up a bit. The safety at the top of the screen walks to the middle of the field - yes. But he goes for the deep post by Martin, covering the middle of the field. Reed automatically on the snap of the ball, stepped forward and inward to the middle of the field. Personally I think he keyed on Fasano going up the middle, as he was looking to jump the route if Fasano continues towards the endzone. We have had success with this play the last few weeks as Fasano has managed to slip up the middle of the field undetected for 6.

    Back to my point. Chad on the snap, looks at Martin, Rolle had cut underneath the route, knowing he had help in the middle coming from the safety at the top of the screen. It is a bad idea to undercut a bigger receiver at the goal line unless you have some help over the top - at least that was what I learned a few bangs in the head ago. For the unitiated (no offense), it allows the receiver and QB to look for the jump ball, as the defender is in a trailing position with his back turned chances are - it is too easy a throw, unless someone else has taken that option away. The fact this safety at the top never shows up in the frame again, even after the int as the camera pans out, provides some support for my point (although it isn't definitive by any means) that that safety was breaking to the deep middle of the end zone - taking away Martin's in breaking route.

    When Reed stepped forward, I think Chad lost him, figuring the safety playing the deep middle was Reed, it wasn't. So to Chad the slot is open as Fasano is well covered and isn't truly open until the ball is thrown. It was a good bump/garb by the weak side backer there.

    Honestly Reed was just sitting there waiting for Chad to make the throw, as soon as Chad cocked his arm Reed broke on the ball. In the clip Reed is coming straight forward into the path of the ball. From my vantage point, and the fan base around me we saw this disaster unfolding. Reed did have an idea of where Penny wanted to go with the ball, and he played it that way. He baited Pennington to make that throw and he did - right to Reed. I think by the time it ended the Ravens may have been playing a cover 1 with their deep safety, meaning he could freelance more with the knowledge Reed was underneath patrolling the short middle of the field.

    I do agree they gave a certain look, making Penny think the middle of the field would be open. The safeties are set wide, giving a cover 2 from that perspective. I just some don't see the wording cover 2 and think a typical cover 2 with the corners rolled up. That assumption would be off. You can play man and still have a cover 2 over the top from your safeties as you well know.

    I am just pointing out the inaccuracy I see, which isn't all your fault, as you can only go with what you had to look at. I just wanted to make sure that all the info is correct in this post as obviously a good deal of work went into it. The safety play was my only real concern. Otherwise very nicely done, and most should take away a few lessons from this.
     
  33. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Con,

    Mark the tape at 4:40

    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80de0c89

    I may have mislead you with the diagram Ryan used in the "Loaded Zone" description. Note that Ryan had two backs in his diagram and also note that the video series is on the 46 defense and the coverages within the 46 defense.

    To get into the dime package that the Ravens were in you must remove one defensive tackle. He is replaced by the safety playing the deep 1/3 over the trips formation. I must make note that I was wrong about one thing here. They gave no help over the top of the weakside (Reed's side).

    In the Ryan video you will notice that the free safety opens to the weak side and then moves to the post. Remember that this is instruction from when Ryan was at the University of Cincinatti. I highly doubt that he ever had a free safety that could align in a cover 2 look and get to the post in time to make that play. What Ryan is doing is making use of the skills of Ed Reed. The assignment remains the same - "Take away the post".
     
  34. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Reed was in the bottom of the endzone man.

    Do you have a copy of the replay. Maybe Crunch does.
     
  35. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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  36. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Yes, it's another video. Freakin' javascript crap......

    Try 4:40 here. The other video was Mariucci's coach'em up......

    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80de0c89
     
  37. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Cool.

    The Ravens use Reed all over the place, and many times where he lines up has nothing to do with where he goes. Did you read my weekly nonsense this week? I tried to break down a play where Reed was aligned over the top of the strong side TE pre snap. After that he ran all the way across the formation looking to pick off the pass underneath that was going backside.

    Another reason I am saying Reed isn't in the video, is that I never saw him him move anywhere but forward. I remember seeing him right in front of me, he stepped forward, and had route covered the whole time. He just sat waiting until he could jump the route. I don't ever recall seeing him flow all the way across the formation. My problem with that is the time line and the angle he has on the ball when it arrives. He is coming straight forward into the pass, if he was moving across the formation to the closest hash, wouldn't his angle have been more horizontal in nature, rather than as vertical as it is. He is moving almost straight forward, I juts don't think the time line allows for Reed to come all the way over like he was, slow down, square up and then break as fast as he did to the ball.
     
  38. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Sorry, I did not read it.

    Here is the thing about the Ravens defense. I love Rex Ryan's stuff and I'm beginning to think that it's not at all practiced by many other teams in the league. The main reason why I recognize "loaded zone" is because I'm always looking for it. I see trips versus the Ravens, I'm looking for "loaded zone". Generally in one form or another I find it. It's just much more complex than he ever describes in his videos. Then again, he made that series for high school and small college coaches as do most coaches that produce Coaches Choice products. They will never see the athletism that Ryan presently has at his disposal. The man knows how to make use of talent.
     
  39. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    O.K. you win. I was wrong - my bad. :up:
     
  40. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Watch his movements at the beginning of the first video right at 3:05. He is already creeping prior to the snap. That is one of the reasons why I said get ready to use pause/play very often. He's showing what he will do and he knows Pennington has no idea. Pennington even referneced the Ravens "exotic coverages" in the post game news conference. That's one of the reasons why I say Ryan's stuff isn't used too much in the NFL. Pennington is the third Quarterback I have heard describing their coverages in that manner. Heck, I'm only familiar with it because I value my Rex Ryan 46 collection.

    You asked about horizontal and vertical. Ask yourself these two questions. Where do the safety's align in a cover 2? How deep is a post thrown?

    Answer one: Around 20 yards as shown but this is red zone. The answer is on the goal line.

    Answer two: 12 yards

    He had to come forward to fulfill his responsibility.
     

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