Why do players lie?
48 replies
ZodNew MemberOPFollowing the game yesterday, Ed Reed was asked a question about how he got the jump on Pennington's pass nearing the end of the third quarter. Do not misunderstand me here. Ed Reed is an excellent player. He seems to be headed for a HOF career. That is not the point. The point is what he said after the game. He said that upon viewing film "Pennington had the tendancy to stare down receivers. He doesn't look off defenders." It is my contention that this was a blatant lie. The fact is that Ed Reed benefited from an excellent coverage call. It was a disguised coverage call used against spread teams. It is a very effective coverage versus triple receiver formations.
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80de086b
I ask that you go to 3:05 in the video linked above and I will go through the coverage called. Be ready to use that pause/play button more than a few times.
First: Forget about the linebacker on the near hashmark. It's not a linebacker. It's a linemen stunt. I think that is Ngata. He is part of a four man rush. Go straight down the hash mark toward the line of scrimmage. The next three men toward the far sideline are the other portion of a four man rush. Forget about them. They do not matter to the coverage.
The key to this coverage is splitting the field in halves. One side is in man to man and the other side is in zone.
Man to man side:
On the far side of the field, you will see a receiver on the line of scrimmage. Do you see that DB in the receivers face? He's locked up in bump and run. He will not leave that receiver. Coming back to the ball you will see the next receiver in motion. I think it's Ricky Williams. The linebacker on the hashmark has him man to man. When the play begins, ANY receiver that crosses the field to that side will be locked up man to man with SOMEBODY from the secondary.
The disquise:
If you look at Ed Reed at 3:05 you will see him in the far endzone. This looks like Cover 2. It's not. He is already beginning his march to the middle of the field. He is suppose to be in the middle of the field. He has set a trap. Watch him move before the ball is ever snapped. He has no responsibility on that side of the field YET. His responsibility is a crosser (a receiver crossing the man/zone divider) in the post area.
The zone side:
Stay at 3:05 in the video. On the Ravens side of the 2 and 12 graphic you will see a linebacker. He is the Mike backer. His responsibility is the first crosser. He has taken an unusual alignment for this coverage to show something different from what is being played. His assignment goes like this: Eyes start on the QB and look to the zone side (near side) for the first crosser.
Just beyond him is a DB standing on the number 10. His assignment is the flat. You can tell by his movements that he isn't going anywhere. He isn't going anywhere because he is reading receiver number 2 to receiver number 1. Both receivers on this side released off the ball. His zone is vacated. He's free to "pull the window" shut and move toward the hook zone with the receivers.
The cornerback closest to the camera has the deep 1/3 to this side of the field. He's is also reading 2 to 1. He is gaining depth to his assignment based upon the release of 2 counting back from his sideline. Watch him. He's looking straight at number 2 and then gains depth.
Both of the aforementioned players have a safety behind them. That safety has the far side deep 2/3 responsibility. Yes, the safety on this side of the field is actually responsible for help on the side where Ed Reed is standing at the beginning of the play.
That leaves Ed Reed with only one responsibility. He is responsible for a crosser at the post. The second crosser in this case would have been number two from this side of the field. The key for the entire secondary responsible for the zone side is to read the release of number 2. As in all zone coverage, they have there eyes in the backfield from the snap. They rotate the eyes to number 2 because number 2 dictates certain route patterns (another story altogether).
So the premise here is that Ed Reed was where he is suppose to be according to the coverage called. His receiver that he will be responsible for is crossing the field in what looks to be a post pattern. Reed is moving in that direction with his eyes on the QB. He didn't simply take off from the goalline based upon Chad Pennington. He was moving toward his responsibility.
So Reed is asked the question about how he made that play. He says he just "watched Pennington's eyes". It is a lie. My question is why did he lie? Why not just say that the defensive coordinator simply made a good call? Why say that there was a deficiency in Pennington's play?
SamphinNew MemberThen I think you answered your own question. There is no way he says all of that to a reporter. No way does he want to clue anyone in to what they are doing on defense and what offenses dictate it.
Let the opposing offensive coordinators figure it out.
muscle979Forum VeteranIt's hard for me to believe that Pennington went the entire season with only 7 picks b/c he had a tendency to stare down receivers. If he did it on that play fine but you can't get away with that all the time in the NFL without paying for it. Some of NFL networks pre game stuff was showing Pennington staring down safeties a few times to free up space and make plays. He just had a bad game. He was trying way too hard to make something happen.
Coral ReeferNew MemberI don't know Zod....
What's Reeds motivation for lying here?
Players watch tape to see tendencies and weaknesses they can pick up on from certain players.
I love what Penninton brought to the table for us this year but I certainly don't get why everyone seems to be so touchy on the subject of Pennington if anything negative is brought up. Every player has weaknesses and we certainly knew that Pennington was hardly an elite QB because of certain negative aspects of his game.
If Reed says he saw a tendency in Pennington to stare down WR's on certain plays then I have no reason to think he's lying about that.
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GARDENHEADSupporterI was at the game. He was staring down receivers all day long. I was bitching to my dad about this the whole game.
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mrozSupporterHe also said he saw that play numberous times on film.
While you do a great job of breaking down the play Reed did not just play his responsibility he jumped the route. That tells me he either saw the play before, read Penny's eyes or both.
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ZodNew MemberSamphin,
He isn't telling anything by saying Rex Ryan made a good coverage call. Opposing coaches are not dumb. They see the same things I just displayed. The coverage call (on film) isn't fooling anyone.
The thing is that he made a play based upon a coverage call. That is where credit is due. Not only that but it doesn't throw another player under the bus neither. Here is what he did if the shoe was on the other foot:
Say Pennington caught the coverage and threw to the far receiver in man to man. The receiver catches it. Pennington is asked about the throw after the game. He says, "I caught Ed Reed gambling as he always does. He hasn't figured out that you win some and you lose some when you gamble." Of course, that too would be a lie. But have you ever heard anything like that from a QB? No, they give credit to the coordinator who made the call and the receiver who made the play. None of which throws an opposing player under the bus for no good reason.
SamphinNew Member"Zod wrote:
Samphin,
He isn't telling anything by saying Rex Ryan made a good coverage call. Opposing coaches are not dumb. They see the same things I just displayed. The coverage call (on film) isn't fooling anyone.
The thing is that he made a play based upon a coverage call. That is where credit is due. Not only that but it doesn't throw another player under the bus neither. Here is what he did if the shoe was on the other foot:
Say Pennington caught the coverage and threw to the far receiver in man to man. The receiver catches it. Pennington is asked about the throw after the game. He says, "I caught Ed Reed gambling as he always does. He hasn't figured out that you win some and you lose some when you gamble." Of course, that too would be a lie. But have you ever heard anything like that from a QB? No, they give credit to the coordinator who made the call and the receiver who made the play. None of which throws an opposing player under the bus for no good reason.
I really don't think it matters, to be honest. If it is a lie, the videotape, coaches and players will be able to chalk it up to Ed Reed merely placating a reporter. In the end, that is all it is really, a quote for an article.
A fairly innocuous at that.
MkdaveNew Member"Zod wrote:
So Reed is asked the question about how he made that play. He says he just "watched Pennington's eyes". It is a lie. My question is why did he lie? Why not just say that the defensive coordinator simply made a good call? Why say that there was a deficiency in Pennington's play?
Reed was actually asked the question 'what did you see on film about Pennington that allowed you to make that play'. Reed responded : 'On that second pick he was just staring right at the reciever' which he was, to be fair. He's looking that way before the ball is even snapped and doesn't look away until after the ball is thrown. He then continued 'looking at the tape, he don't look off too much because of the line and the rush, he's not worring about me he's worrying about the rush'. I'm not sure if he's criticizing your line, or crediting his own, but either way, he was just answering the question. He didn't go out of his way to throw Chad under a bus. He was just saying what he saw.
Unless of course we are talking about 2 different interviews that ended up the same way, which is feasible, given there are only really two plays to talk about from Ed Reed's perspective.
You know that saying:' 2/3 of earth is covered by water, the other 1/3 is covered by Ed Reed'? Its not true. He bought a boat.
cnc66Luxury BoxI dunno about lying, but I heard something that said Reed knew the play the instant Ronnie? went into motion. Said he KNEW where the pass was going.
MkdaveNew Member"cnc66 wrote:
I dunno about lying, but I heard something that said Reed knew the play the instant Ronnie? went into motion. Said he KNEW where the pass was going.
He also said that after his 107TD return he knew where the pass was going because of something Haruki Nakamura (our rookie safety) pointed out. Something about a wideout lining up at tight end. I'm not really sure what to make of it. I'm more than happy to give him the benefit of the doubt if he keeps picking off 2 passes a game.
You know that saying:' 2/3 of earth is covered by water, the other 1/3 is covered by Ed Reed'? Its not true. He bought a boat.
ZodNew Member"Mkdave wrote:
Reed was actually asked the question 'what did you see on film about Pennington that allowed you to make that play'. Reed responded : 'On that second pick he was just staring right at the reciever' which he was, to be fair. He's looking that way before the ball is even snapped and doesn't look away until after the ball is thrown. He then continued 'looking at the tape, he don't look off too much because of the line and the rush, he's not worring about me he's worrying about the rush'. I'm not sure if he's criticizing your line, or crediting his own, but either way, he was just answering the question. He didn't go out of his way to throw Chad under a bus. He was just saying what he saw.
Unless of course we are talking about 2 different interviews that ended up the same way, which is feasible, given there are only really two plays to talk about from Ed Reed's perspective.
Nope, that was the interview and I think you gave a fair assessment. Maybe it is me that is being a little too harsh with the word "lie" because my point is that he didn't make the play based upon film study. Yet as you point out, the question was about film.
As I watched the replay yesterday, I knew Ed Reed did not just jump a route. Bad players take those risks out of assignment. Good players do not just leave a Cover 2 (as was shown pre-snap) because they thought they saw something. Well, maybe the Detroit Lions do but that's another story altogether.
I saw the interview on TV last night and thought there was no way he was just freelancing based upon eye movement. So when I awoke this morning, I went looking for that play. What I saw was a man headed for a destination (the middle of the field) because that was his job on the play. It had nothing to do with anything seen on tape.
In the end, my issue may just be with a reporter that asks a specific question and a player that doesn't know how to give specific answers. It just rubs me the wrong way. Then again, Ed Reed isn't playing football for his interviewing talents.
I should be the last person criticising someone for interviewing prowess too. Two years ago I was an assistant at a very small high school that played an away game in a town so small you could drive through it in 2.3 seconds. Little did I know that the game was being televised locally on closed circuit television. A print reporter comes up to me after the game and just starts conversation. I'm not thinking "reporter" so I do not have any guard up as to what I will say. The reporter asks something about our injuries and the hits that promoted the injuries. I say something in the nature of "The players are dirty and that always points back to one direction - coaching." I'll never know if that made it to print but it was my one instance at answering questions from a reporter after a football game. In hindsight, I don't think I handled it all to well... :lol:
MkdaveNew Member"Zod wrote:
I'm not thinking "reporter" so I do not have any guard up as to what I will say. The reporter asks something about our injuries and the hits that promoted the injuries. I say something in the nature of "The players are dirty and that always points back to one direction - coaching." I'll never know if that made it to print but it was my one instance at answering questions from a reporter after a football game. In hindsight, I don't think I handled it all to well... :lol:
That's something I didn't think about actually. The guy interviewing him was Rodney Harrison, a fellow (ex)football player and safety, so maybe on some level it was just like him talking to one of his teamates or something, and that's why he was so openly critical of Chad.
You know that saying:' 2/3 of earth is covered by water, the other 1/3 is covered by Ed Reed'? Its not true. He bought a boat.
"Zod wrote:
Samphin,
He isn't telling anything by saying Rex Ryan made a good coverage call. Opposing coaches are not dumb. They see the same things I just displayed. The coverage call (on film) isn't fooling anyone.
The thing is that he made a play based upon a coverage call. That is where credit is due. Not only that but it doesn't throw another player under the bus neither. Here is what he did if the shoe was on the other foot:
Say Pennington caught the coverage and threw to the far receiver in man to man. The receiver catches it. Pennington is asked about the throw after the game. He says, "I caught Ed Reed gambling as he always does. He hasn't figured out that you win some and you lose some when you gamble." Of course, that too would be a lie. But have you ever heard anything like that from a QB? No, they give credit to the coordinator who made the call and the receiver who made the play. None of which throws an opposing player under the bus for no good reason.
Being in the correct coverage is only part of it.This isn't Madden 09.The QB still goes through his reads.He has his tendencies. Ed Reed is a class guy and would not throw an opposing player "under the bus' as you say.It was an off the cuff response. Remember, these guys are atheletes, not diplomats. And "staring down" to Ed could be a "glance" to us. Players of his caliber see things a lot slower motion than even "good" players do. I know yesterday stung,been there. Don't worry. The loss will wear off soon then it'll be watching the playoffs( I hope you pull for us), free agency, the draft etc. Hang in there bro.
HH
"Samphin wrote:
I really don't think it matters, to be honest. If it is a lie, the videotape, coaches and players will be able to chalk it up to Ed Reed merely placating a reporter. In the end, that is all it is really, a quote for an article.
A fairly innocuous at that.
Agree. Also to call somebody a liar without knowing if Reed did or didn't see wht he said he did is pretty harsh. And I also ask, Whats his motivation?
HH
ZodNew Member"Mkdave wrote:
That's something I didn't think about actually. The guy interviewing him was Rodney Harrison, a fellow (ex)football player and safety, so maybe on some level it was just like him talking to one of his teamates or something, and that's why he was so openly critical of Chad.
I do not know how pro coaches do the interview thing five and ten minutes after a ball game. My brain is fried after a football game. I cannot remember anything from a player perspective although I think to some degree it's a little more relaxed approach. For the coaches, the entire game is mental. Then five minutes later you are answering what seems to be silly questions. I will never understand how they do it. I assume they just focus upon being complimentary of the opposition and proud of their efforts in every response. I would attempt to give the most "drone like" interviews ever but based upon my one experience it would probably look more like.......
YouTube - Jim Mora Final Saints Speech (old)
finsergNew MemberI think he is the best thing we had since fielder..but we need to know who going to be our future QB.
New EraNew Member"GARDENHEAD wrote:
I was at the game. He was staring down receivers all day long. I was bitching to my dad about this the whole game.
You would be staring down WR's if you had all of 1.2 seconds to make a choice on who gets the ball....the double or triple coverage...oppps times up...
The Oline was just plain and simple horrible. Then Chad made things worse by forcing throws. If I was the D-Cord for the Ravens. I would have done the same thing. Send the house from overloads and force Chad not to be CHAD!
ZodNew Member"vinivedivichi wrote:
What's the point of this thread?
It's a conversation. What's the point of your post?
ZodNew Member3Z
For some reason the google video screen isn't opening here. Mouse over 3Z and click it to open. I'll leave this up for about 24 hrs....
I heard Reed say in an interview today that he recognized that play from film work. When Ronnie or Ricky lined up in that spot and went in motion, CP always threw it to that spot. That was an awesome view of what watching tape can do for you.
Was that the REAL truthful answer??? Dont know, but it sure sounds good.
thanks for the analysis of the play zod. the ravens d has given opposing teams problems for years and has at times been absolutely dominant. i appreciate the breakdown of that play and really would like to read more of that type of information on what teams are doing with specific formations and how they work. as to why ed would not just say it was a good scheme from our coordinator i have no idea, seems to be a good answer to me. maybe ed doesn't like rodney harrison and doesn't want to answer his questions. maybe he doesn't want to tell rodney anything about his defense cause he dislikes the pats. information is power
FinSaneForum VeteranA Different Perspective: Pennington,Dolphins Loss Validates Jets Release
He can win some regular season games, build up his completion percentage, and be a leader on the field. But he is not a Super Bowl-caliber quarterback.
It was this truth—this fact—that forced the New York Jets to make the move they made for Brett Favre. With the Jets never making the playoffs to begin with, their transaction is still considered a monumental failure.
But Chad's performance in the Wild Card Round is proof positive of why the Jets felt they needed to pull the trigger when the opportunity to acquire Favre presented itself.
The Dolphins' 2008 season is eerily similar to the one the Jets had in 2006. A rookie head coach leads his team to the playoffs with some creativity as the defense plays fairly well.
And Pennington wins Comeback Player of the Year—only to be dropped in the playoffs by New England as Chadwick threw an interception into Asante Samuel's waiting arms.