I wanted to provide a new perspective for all of us to better understand the unfamiliar Cameron Wake, and why he will be as good as Demarcus Ware (who was in Wake's 2005 class). To do so, we must undertand the Wake of "then" to the Wake of "now". During the 2005 Draft, Derek Cameron Wake was the most gifted, natural talent coming out of college...but he was undrafted because: 1. He was severely undersized at 236 lbs. 2. He was physically weak- only 20 reps on the bench. 3. He severely lacked the mental aspect, heart, and desire, and coasted on natural ability. Fast forward 4 years: 1. Weight- 260 lbs. 2. Can Power Clean Andy Ried (@375 lbs) and estimate bench to be at least 31 times. 3. Has rededicated his life to football and being the best he can be. He now exhibits the heart, tenacity, leadership, and desire of Jason Taylor. 4. He has shown great instincts with a tremendous motor on his way to earning Defensive ROY and 2 time Defensive player of the year in a league that is geared toward offensive production. In the following, I have his physical skills compared to Aaron Curry, Demarcus Ware, and Matt Roth:(I used these 3 b/c they represented the best LB in the 09 Draft (the offseason we signed Cam), the best pass rusher in the NFL, and 1 of our very own OLBs whom we're familiar with) Cameron Wake 6"3, 260. 40 time- 4.55; Shuttle time: 4.13; Vertical Jump: 45.5"; Broad Jump: 10'10"; est Bench: 31. Aaron Curry 6"2, 254, 40 time: 4.56; Shuttle time: not in top ten LB's and no better than 4.32 ; Vertical: 37"; Broad Jump: 10'4"; Bench: 25. Demarcus Ware6"4, 262. 40 time: 4.56; Shuttle time: 4.07 ; Vertical: 38.5 ; Broad jump: 10"2 ; Est Bench: 31. Matt Roth: 4.81 40; Shuttle: 4.36; Vertical: 32"; Broad: 9'04"; bench? A player's "power and explosion", which are extremely significant in game play, are measured by adding a player's Vertical Jump, Broad Jump, and Bench Press. For a DE/OLB this serves as a marker for how powerful and explosive a player is off the line. A combined total of 70 or higher is used to sort out the best of the best. Highest Explosion Examples from 2005 draft class and Aaron Curry: PLAYER/ VERTICAL/ BROAD JUMP/ BENCH/ TOTAL/ ADJUSTED TOTAL FROM NEW ESTIMATED BENCH Luis Castillo 34½, 10-foot-10, 32, 77/81 Shawne Merriman 40, 10-foot-1, 25, 75/83 Demarcus Ware 38½, 10-foot-2, 27, 75/79 Cameron Wake 45½, 10-foot-10, 20, 75/85 Aaron Curry 37, 10-foot-4, 25, 72/78 >Wake is more explosive than all of the top pass rushers in the NFL and the top Defensive prospect in the 09 Draft (Aaron Curry). >Wake is faster 4.55 than the fastest LB in the 09 draft (Aaron Curry), faster than the top Rush LB (Connor Barwin 4.66), and faster than Demarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman. >Wake is quicker (4.13) than the quickest Rush LB in the 09 Draft (Connor Barwin 4.18). The 20 yard shuttle measures a players quickness, which is more important than the 40 yard dash. To show great quickness a player must show at least a .5 difference between his 40 yard dash and 20 yard shuttle. EX: Wake's 4.55 forty minus 4.13 shuttle= 0.52. If a player has a high 40 time, then the .5 difference is even more significant. Add all of his physical attributes/ top notch intangibles and you get: the fastest, quickest, most explosive and athletically gifted player with great instincts and strength, great attitude and leadership, extremely high motor, tenacity, heart, desire to be the best, and tremendous will power.... you get one of the top impact players in the NFL. Watch and see!!!!
can we embed you tube videos in this forum? if we can i would like to embed this one: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2zk_hiMoVk"]YouTube - Cameron Wake vertical leap(11'8")[/ame] until then, you'll have to click on this link! lol
You can't read too much into stats and these combine type results. They can be misleading. I remember Jared Allen talking about the combine and how he said he's not a "bench guy". He did like 17 or 20 reps or something like that, maybe worse, I forget. Well, he's pretty good, right? There's a big difference between weight lifting strength as opposed to functional strength, for example. It's just a small part of the evaluating process. You can tell the best by putting on the tape, watching film.
All i know is that after seeing that youtube video that i posted, Wake will block every punt and field goal!
Apparently, so will Jarron Gilbert, but that did not happen. I knew a guy in college who could do the same thing, it didn't make a better football player. I can't, and won't say what he will do or won't do until I see him do it in an NFL game of any kind, maybe practice etc. Many people predicted that Jake Long would struggle at left tackle. Gotta see him play first. I'm not saying he can't, but will he?
I love the enthusiasm, but dam dude you sure you didn't leave anything out? I gotta jerk your chain a little bit.
I don't think anyone questions his athleticism or physical tools, but the question remains: Can he defend the run? If the answer is no, I don't see a fantastic career. If the answer becomes yes, then watch out because we may have had the best signing in 2009.
Great post. I've got to agree with you here. I'm pretty excited about this guy joining our team. He's a pretty athletic guy, he tore apart the CFL, sure its a big step down talent wise, but you still have to have alot of talent to dominate the way he did, he was clearly in a league of his own, so he's got some talent. I cant wait to see how he does in the nfl
Many people.... Ehh, numbers guys come and go, last year the Workout Warrior was Bryan Johnston from Gardner Webb... Point being, we have some idea what Wake will face, he will have to perform though, and the Voluntary Workouts have just started, let's wait and see what Wake does with pads on, and Vs Vern Carey or Jake Long in practice first.
Something about kick slides or something... Luv ya Conu! I was going to start a " should it be Cameron...or should it be Derek...?" I've been looking forward to a analytical approach to the differences between playing 2 yds off the Olineman, or playing standing up 3 yds off the Olineman concerning D/C Wake. Derek/Cameron Wake's largest falling from what I've seen is he has lived down to his Draftscout report, the man just cannot use his hands well, top passrushers can slap, and swim and...D wake...not so sure about Conu. Any chance you could catch some film of him in the CFL and make it rain in Dolphinland?
Ricky, that video is not what Padre is referring to. If anyone wants me to look at this, I need to see him from before the snap. That video shows nothing like that, all it shows are hits, which are nice, but are not what led to him getting to that point. If I can get the video padre I will do a quickie - obviously.
Sweet Conu! Wake tends to sort of chest bump the CFL tackles, all that power means he probably needs to be retrained.
Thanks Con. No worries about busting my chops.. my intro says that I'm a PITA....so someone has to give me a hard time. Posted via Mobile Device
We signed Aaron Maybin. Seriously. In many ways, with regard to their pass rush. Padre you are correct sir. His hand use is awful to say the least and will probably leave a few people wondering where the beast is unless he improves. It isn't just on the pass rush or anything, but against the run he has little recourse if he gets locked up by an offensive tackle. He has great straight line speed and explosion, but he does not run the arc the way you would look for from someone do fast. This is where he reminds me of Maybin the most; the fact he does not get his hands on his man much. A guy like English, Sintim and others use their hands to keep the blocker away from them on the backside. They rip it up and under the man's pads so they can create a little separation. That way when (if) the QB breaks outside, to the same side as the rush, they can have a chance to adjust rather than just getting pushed wide. Separation does matter. He will spin off of blocks on run plays and he wants to get back into it. But, he still does not use his hands to push off, knock his blockers hands off etc. He can continue to be blocked, as again, he has not made separation. He does not drive his legs, or work to slide down the line with any great fervor. His hustle to chase down plays away from him can also be questioned. Does not use great arm extension keep blockers off his pads consistently. He has agility, and can move well around the field and in space, so he may provide some help in pass coverage, but I'd need to see more from him. Right now, he looks like a situational pass rusher who is not going to play versus the run a great deal, and is a bit straight line-ish with his rush. He has not shown, from the sample I have seen, a solid inside redirect, arm over, swim, etc to get back inside. He is not a player to build or focus your defense on right now, he is a complementary player. Wake didn't sign a big contract, and I think I can understand why. He is a one dimensional guy in many ways right now. He can still grow, but he is a better version of Charlie Anderson in that he is a situational pass rusher. He lives on speed and explosion, not technique. Trust me Todds, I'll take the piss first chance I get. Good enough for now Padre?
are you able to get the game film footage that coaches and players study? if so, that's sweet! whats a man got to do to get connections like that?
No, I wish. Desides can tell you what i can do with that angle though from our playoff game experience. I do what I can with I have available, and trust me there are a few posters on here who can do this better than I can.
Indeed, quite good enough. The one thing you did not mention though, Cam Wake can close, he has that knack. In the CFL he used a sort of chest bump to rush the passer due to the Dline playing off the Oline by rule, if Wake can ingest techniques though, the sky is the limit for him, he is far more physical then C Anderson, he also closes better the Anderson, the only guy on our roster who has that talent more then him is Joey Porter, Wake's issue is, he is so raw that the tricks are not a part of repetoire. Arm over, rip, swim, spin, bull rush, those are things that will have to be crammed down his throat 24/7. That said, if Merling blossoms then Wake will end up being one of those Dumavill types of players, you don't know how he ends up with 12 sacks, he just does.
LOL, Con. I hope we didn't just sign Maybin. Not a fan of his. To play Devil's Advocate here, we did sign him to the single largest contract ever for a CFL player and more than his BC teammates made as a whole. So we really didn't have to pay him what he would be worth if we moved up the boards to draft him as a top 10 pick, which is where I feel he would go. In all fairness, he was ROY, and 2 time DPOY....he achieved that through rededicating his life to football and excellence. He didn't get there by slacking or coasting on natural ability, so cant you really blame him if he was dominant w/o having the more refined skills of the trade that you refer to? As you know, in the NFL, the problem many gifted players have is they feel they are too good to be coached or that their natural abililty that got them through high school and D1 college will get them through the NFL. For most, learning the skills of the trade isn't the issue. The "desire and dedication to learn them" is. They lack motivation....then show up during a contract year. Wake has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has that "extreme desire", so it's only a matter of time for him to quickly learn the skills. Cam is used to being a DPOY....do you think he will want to come in here bearing the weight of the entire CFL and putz around? No Way. He means business. (I mean that with all respect) LOL. As for Maybin....the kid doesn't really understand football, is a major liability vs the run b/c of this along with subpar instincts. He stops in the middle of plays to get his bearings, and he's taken out in short yardage/goalline plays. He doesn't offer much for team leadership and, personally, I'd question his love for the game and how much he wants to give himself to it. None of this I can say about Wake.
Thanks Sceeto. Question: Who would you rather have- Matt Roth.... or Matt Roth but with Patrick Willis's physical skills? Unlike Vernon Gholston, the physical skills do matter in Wake's regard b/c they were one of the reasons he was undrafted in the first place. He was too light and too weak. Plus he didn't have that intrinsic desire to be great at all cost. Now he does. So when you add all the physical tools to a player who does have that "Zach Thomas type" will power/desire...there is a big difference. LOL. Adding the physical tools can take them from good to great. Now if we're talking about Michael Johnson, then I could care less about his physical ability and wouldn't touch him with one of our 7th round picks.
I honestly feel he will be Defensive ROY with at least 10 sacks and strongly outplay Orakpo and Brown combined.
My only question is if he has dedicated his life to football etc. why has not got those techniques down yet? If he was truly motivated, would he have not sought to become better against sub par competition no? I mean some of these guys have an awful kick slide, don't put their hands up etc, yet he he still has very little technique. Jerry Rice was motivated, he sought out knowledge, as was Zach Thomas, etc. They had technical refinement, and the higher you go, the more the little things count. Everyone can run and jump, within reason obviously on the next level. The technique is what sets them apart, really. I say this all the time; defenders have to play off of blocks in the NFL to be successful. Right now, Wake is a liability in that regard. If he wanted to learn technique, he could have learned it by now. He put work in to his physical body, but where is the other part of the game? Hasn't Wake proved so far that to some degree he does believe, whether now or earlier that he did believe his ability would get him by. Now, he can improve, but will he? He hasn't become more schooled in Canada. He may do it here, but it will not be in one offseason, or two. There is a lot of muscle memory to build up. I'm not trying to sound as though I know what this guy will do, but so far he hasn't killed himself learning technique, and I have to wonder at what stage during his renaissance that he will. Trust me, I hope he is everything you want him to be, I wouldn't complain. But right now, he has a lot of work to do. I don't think he would be a Top 10 pick. There are questions regarding his basics, and that will drop you a bit. Is he explosive? Yes. Can he improve? Yes. But right now, he is one dimensional, but as I said he may bring more to coverage as he can move well, and flip his hips with ease. Always remember that being the big fish in a little pond doesn't mean you're a big fish, just that everyone else may be smaller. How big are you in a group of your peers, amongst other big fish. And listen, you can tell me you think I'm full of it, and that's fine. I won't be upset, just give me some evidence as to your position and I'll talk to you about anything related to football. He has put work in, but will he take it to the next level. Still a good post regardless of my analysis, which at best is limited. As they say "You got in the door, now what will you do on the other side?" With regards to Aaron Maybin: http://www.universaldraft.com/Aaron_Maybin.html
He got down what he needed to get down to be the "best defensive player in the CFL". LOL. Did he need to learn extra moves to do so? No. Is it his fault? No. Does it make him less dedicated? No. Coaching etc also has a part to play. If you have a guy who comes in and gives you his "all" to become the most dominant defensive player in the league.... are you going to start nitpicking his game as a BC coach? No. You're just happy he's on your team and not the team you're playing against. If he didn't succeed from the league he just came from, then you have every valid reason to make the points about him not learning more refined technique. If your question should be asked to anyone, it's BC head coach Wally Buano. LOL. Wally had a guy who was foaming at the mouth to become a great player. He's the one who should have taken advantage of Cam's young tenacity and eagerness and helped teach Wake (or recruit someone to teach him) these skills. Maybe Wake would have had 35 sacks if he did so.
The athleticism of a guy only gets him so far in the NFL. Coachability, heart, desire, dedication on and off the field make him a star. You can say that some of Wake's changes in his life indicate that extra something it takes to make a guy successful in the NFL, but until we see it, he's just another workout wonder. His accomplishments in the CFL, while impressive, can't really be compared to his success in the NFL until we see if he is coachable, has the heart, desire and dedication it takes. Is he spending enough time in the film room ?? Is he spending the time in the weight room ?? Does he eat, live, think and love football ?? These questions in this kid only come because he's had the advantage of a first shot in the NFL and didn't take it...so has he learned ?? Only time will tell. If the evaluation above of his weaknessess are valid, he'll have a tough road. Unfortunately, as an OLB/DE the skillset from the CFL to the NFL just don't correspond. That's not to say that he can't or hasn't changed and learned, just that it still remains to be seen. The one thing that bothers me the most, and it was mentioned above and in his college bio, is that he lacks instincts...that's not a good trait for an OLB in this D....
We ask the same questions about the success of every draft prospect. What you did before this level is an indicator. We'll see, can he do it? Sure. But success does not always indicate what type of player you are, you can be a somewhat bad player technically and survive, but you will not thrive.
Con, I don't think you're full of it. What you're saying is completely valid in every sense, and I totally agree. It's basically a norm for assessing talent, right? I guess the main question is: do we feel he will learn these techniques and how long will it take? Some people have a gift for assessing talent. (great analysis of Maybin by the way. was it yours?) Some have a gift for looking into people's souls and seeing who they really are. This is my gift, and these 2 gifts are not reflexive. LOL. One can have the best eye in the world at assessing talent, and a horrible eye at seeing inside someone. That's probably the most difficult part about scouting a player- predicting if they can translate their talent to the NFL, correct? Just like the assessment of Maybin, with the emphasis on Aaron being-- "he has the raw physical tools but needs time to develop the rest of his game". I disagree with part of that, b/c in his case some of the questioned intangibles can't be taught or learned to the extent needed to even come close to matching his talent level. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to be able to gauge: if they have the capacity to learn; if they have the desire to learn; if they will give you 100% after a huge pay check; if they have the ability to "will" themselves to the next level and at crucial times; if they have the desire to be a great teammate, leader and positive influence on everyone around them; if they have the relentless desire to win; and above all--- if they have the mental strength to accomplish all of this. To me, this is what a great football player is all about. If he has half of the physical tools with all the above mentioned, I'll take him anyday of the weak over top physical/athletic talent who have some question marks surrounding the fore mentioned intangibles. Assessing this part of a person is my talent, tooting my own horn if I do say so. When I see inside someone, the above intangibles are my "it" factor, my most important characteristics, and I see it in Wake as much as I see it in guys like Zach, JT, AJ Duhey, Steve Largent, Walter Payton, Singletary...even Bess. Sorry, had to throw in a few Phins players. So in my mind, I have no doubt he will learn these needed skills. As far as a Top 10 pick, the only guy accustomed to the role of a 3-4 rush LB is Clint Sintim.... so according to what you say, then really none of the potential Rush LB's in the draft should be Top 10 consideration as they're all transitioning from DE. Only difference is Wake is further along in his maturity (mental and physical) than Orakpo or Brown, but far from an "old dog" not capable of learning new tricks. LOL.
Thanks Larry. Great insight. I think in Wake's case.... he's at the point now where you can throw his college bio out the window and start fresh with his CFL bio. Scouting reports aren't always right.... or else we would never have gotten Bess as a FA. LOL. One benefit that Wake has over new draftees is that even though he was a DE, he had to start a yard farther off the LOS and sometimes standing up from near OLB position, which is more similar to how he will be paying in the NFL.
I completely agree, although (I'm not telling you what you don't already know) learning pass rush technique is easier to acquire than most of, if not all, the other intangibles... especially if you put your mind to it. B/C of all his other gifts (both natural and intrinsic), he doesn't have to become a master executioner to become great in the NFL....and IMO if he learns at least half of the skills, he will be a force. But something tells me he will learn more than half.
I wouldn't say that, and I don't think I did. What I would say is that players who are big fish will have to prove they can succeed at the next level amongst all the other big fish - there are no little fish anymore. I personally think those players that utilize their hands well, and display a variety or understanding of hand fighting techniques will be more successful on the next level. If you are going to be a rush linebacker, you'd better be pretty dam well versed in hand fighting techniques to make it. Vernon Gholston can tell you that, although he has other issues too, but his hand use is awful. DE's can succeed in college and have the strength to hold up in the NFL, so they convert. the ones that can transition usually have good hands, and lateral agility. Athletic ability combined with technique will get into the Top 10. And any DE who has th required elements can make the switch, and be successful. I wonder if he will absorb the coaching, we'll see. But the next thing is it will not be done in one off season, no matter how hard he tries. It will probably take two, muscle memory has to be built up and that takes time.
Great post, Con. Sorry about mixing your words. LOL. I wasn't a big fan of Gholston last draft, so I can understand that analogy. So, with great dedication... how long will it take a savy player to learn half of the pass rush/ hand technique required? I know all the will power in the world can't will that to happen. You didn't answer my question? Was that your great analysis of Maybin?
How much of this do you feel is the coach's fault at the college level... or even high school? And how early does a player have to begin practicing these skills to really show them? Better question is.... how late can a college player begin practicing them and still be effective with it?
Your cool man, don't stress. I never know if my wordy posts get the message across correctly. Me, I'd say two off seasons to be pretty proficient. It just takes time to get to the poitn where one can simply react with them rather than have to think them first - you know. Hey he could be good at two moves half way through the season if he does work on it a good deal, you never know. I don't know his mental accumen in regards to absorbing information. He may never get it translated to the field. Who knows at this stage. But I say 2 offseasons, as he'll be hit with a lot of stuff this season - adjusting back to the NFL daily routines etc. To answer your question, yes it was.
That makes sense. I know when my mind goes into overdrive I'm actually worse off then before I began the learning process in the first place.... then when it becomes second nature like you say- fughetaboutit. LOL. As for answering my question....awesome eye for detail. My favorite talent assessor is Drew Boylehart from the huddlereport, but you just escalated to or near the top IMO. I like Drew b/c he has the underappreciated gift for also seeing into a player's soul. I haven't read enough of your stuff to see your ability on that. LOL.
