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Why a franchise LT is nonsense

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Apr 19, 2013.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Think about that for a moment..2% upgrade?

    Really, now compare say Albert to Martin in terms of pressures allowed, say it's as high as 10% more pressures..you are looking at maybe what, 20 more pressures or sacks in 700 plays?

    Put that cornerstone LT stuff to bed, it deserves it's grave of outdated ideas like a Fullback.
     
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  2. Zeke0123

    Zeke0123 message board ******* Club Member

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    Thats a little bit over the top comparing LT to fullback...you don't even have to roster a fullback but someone has to man LT every single offensive snap...you cant have consistently bad LT play and expect to have a good offense.

    I think "Franchise" left tackle is outdated but you do need a good player there and it is worth spending resources to get one..unlike a fullback.
     
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  3. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Probably right about 'franchise'. But it's an important role: why do NFL FOs pay them more than most positions? Why do so many consistently go in the first round? They line up and compete directly against another 'value' position DE, and are the chief protectors of the most important position QB.
     
  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not a #1 pick or a 9 million per yr contract, they just do not make as much of a difference as people seem to think they do. It would be far better to take an impact player with high value resources.

    My one caveat is, a Tackle can be just hot garbage the way Colombo was, that is more the exception than the rule.
     
  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    B/c the NFL has it wrong, what real value is there when the D simply flips their premium passrusher on your RT and let's mr 9 millie/#1 pick battle it out with a scrubbini?
     
  6. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This thread really makes no sense. Branden Albert is one of the best pass protectors in the league, there isn't a huge difference between him and the potential best. There are other aspects, there is run blocking, there is salary cap cost, there is age, there is injury history, etc. and so on.

    Just guessing what the potential difference between an elite LT and a bad LT rather than actually making some attempt to figure it out is just lazy innuendo. Furthermore, you can just ****ing watch. If you can't tell me the difference of the impact between D'Anthony Bastite and Joe Thomas just watching maybe like a series or two, you need to take up a different sport, this one isn't for you.

    The "offensive linemen don't matter much unless they are really super bad" argument is really the most intellectually bankrupt idea that has made its way around here in some time.
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yeah, as PFF points out what a 2% upgrade?

    To put that into context, a single rookie for us who scored say 8 Td's, would be how large of an upgrade over 12's wr's corps Td production?

    A defense can always flop their De, offenses cannot flop a LT to face them at RT, and yet, this meme persists.
     
  8. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Obviously the GM's in the league don't agree with you, since the thinking at this time is that three LT's will probably be taken within the first 10 picks next Thursday. You might think a cornerstone LT is as outdated as a Fullback, but I bet 32 starting QB's in the NFL would disagree with you.
     
  9. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Do show me the recent list of Top 10 drafted offensive lineman who are on winning teams?
     
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  10. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're making an argument against what the Chiefs are doing, not what the Dolphins are doing.

    I'm not sure you understand what "meme" means. The idea that a franchise left tackle is basically football orthodoxy, and has been for several decades. A meme is basically an amateur creation that is often crowd sourced, and is difficult to take at face value or satirical in nature.

    Hey, wait, that is exactly what your idea is.

    Perhaps you might want to consider attaching a picture of a cat to the idea that franchise tackles aren't important? "Can I has wide receiver plz?", maybe?

    https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...urce=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=qL5xUf7BOIjG9gTvzIGQDw
     
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  11. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    I can see both sides of the argument .I think what has changed is if you draft a LT high and he proves to be very good at his job you will only have him as long as his rookie contract lasts .After that they price themselves out of the market or take up an inordinate amount of the teams cap.It used to be that you could depend on that LT lasting at least 10 yrs.

    So there are dimishing returns on an investment on a LT .That would mean that you would have to draft a LT every 4 yrs or so .
     
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  12. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To me, I agree with your point about paying a guy 9 million a year or so to play LT. Especially when we are in the position to be able to move up a few spots, get a LT you can plug in and play week 1, for the mere cost of the rookie pay scale for what.. 4 or 5 years now? To me, that exact point screams to me that we are likely going to trade up, and draft a LT early. The fact of the matter is, you need an excellent player at that position. You can't deny that. You almost need a first round talent to play there right away. Our current roster does not give us the luxury of being able to draft one in the later rounds and let him develop. We need someone who can play the position ASAP, I dont see Ireland and company paying Albert 8-9 million a year. If they wanted to do that they'd have likely kept Long.

    I think they view LT as a "franchise position" but from an elite talent perspective only, not an elite salary perspective. Which is why I think we will draft one early.
     
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  13. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    A 2% upgrade over one of the best pass protectors in the league, all this does is highlight that KC shouldn't be looking to go OT with the #1, not that taking an OT at #1 is wrong.

    I don't have the PFF stats but didn't Martin allow a ridiculous number of pressures last year (something like 56 if I remember right)? If you have the chance to draft someone that will cut that number in half, you are getting a 50% upgrade. Those extra 28 plays might actually end up producing more touchdowns.
     
  14. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend Club Member

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    the next dimension
    Also, I thought the perception is that it's easier to play tackle in a ZBS, in other words you don't need Jake Long and Tony Bosselli's out there, is this wrong?
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    No, you do not, you need merely an avg player and offensive skill position talent that scores Td's.

    In Cinci, by any measure AJ Green was far more a key to making the playoffs 2 yrs in a row then Andre Smith, who basically was a bust until last yr.
     
  16. Jcouch1021

    Jcouch1021 New Member

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    Top 10 picking teams generally did worse then .500 the year before... You know to pick in the top 10...

    You can find value all over, but the probability rate of a player becoming the # one at his position I would assume percentage wise would drop over the course of the draft... So give me 20 third round OT and give me 20 first round OT...
     
  17. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    BTW I would not call the LT an unskilled position.They are skilled at getting huge contracts more that some starting QBs .Think about that.
     
  18. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Probably moot. It's looking like they are going to eventually sign Brandon Albert.
     
  19. mroz

    mroz Rosen is a franchise QB Club Member

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    2% increase in offense would have meant that the Fins would have won three more games last year (NYJ, Az, Indie)

    just saying….
     
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  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The differences between blocking schemes are fundamentally about how a player figures out whom he is supposed to block. I don't think one is easier than the other, fundamentally an elite left tackle is going to be put on an island against elite edge rushers regardless.
     
  21. Doesn't take but one of those 20 to end your QB's season...
     
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  22. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    A great LT isnt going to make a bad QB or RB great, but a terrible one is going to make a good QB or RB far less effective. Football is a team sport.
     
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  23. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    I can agree the LT payroll is a bit out of hand when 10 mill of 125 ish mill is going to one man. Problem is this is the guy standing on the blindside of most QB's so we have to ponder is it worth a few extra BIG hits to your QB? Most QB's won't be able to take that kind of constant punishment and maintain good play or health. So if that's the going price to shore up your blind side we are kinda screwed from the start or recycling QB's on a regular basis.
     
  24. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Umm ok. Ryan Kalil.
    In 2010, 3 teams drafted Oline in the top 11 and ALL MADE THE PLAYOFFS last year. Wups.

    During the past 5 years, 10 teams drafted a tackle in the top twelve.
    Their combined record the year prior to drafting their tackle was 45-114, obviously none making the playoffs.
    Their combined 2012 record jumped to 89-69 with 6 of 10 teams making the playoffs last year alone.

    What were you saying, Pods?
     
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  25. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Agreed. The difference between the best LT and a serviceable LT is so marginal when compared to the differences between skill positions such as WR, QB, TE ect when you're talking about the best compared to serviceable.
     
  26. mroz

    mroz Rosen is a franchise QB Club Member

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    baDa baDa baDa thats all folks….
     
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  27. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Something not being obvious to you for whatever reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't important. Coming up with a belief system based on that and then acting as if you've invented something is pretty well the height of arrogance. It's like not believing in fundamental science because you can't be bothered to read a book or attend a class.

    I'd still love for someone to explain to me why a comparison between an elite pass protection and a theoretical unnamed best pass protector somehow says anything at all about a gap between elite and not very good.

    That's not even getting into the massive mitigating circumstances. You can make the worst tackle in the league put up the same pressure statistics as the best. It would just involve completely hamstringing your offense.
     
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  28. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    A 2% difference is pretty big. That 2% could be the difference between your quarterback having that extra nano second to get rid of it and put points on the board and laying on his back wishing he had gotten rid of it earlier. As much as people want to ignore it, offensive line play is important. IF you don't win up front you are winning nothing.
     
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  29. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Put it this way, Browns have had Mack at C and Thomas at LT, consider elite players, it did not help McCoy or Weedon at all.

    And yet this idea continues to float around as a sort of fan gospel.
     
  30. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Put it this way, Pods. You can take it a step further by highlighting the fact that EVERY 2012 playoff team (plus the 10-6 Bears who just missed the playoffs) has recently drafted an offensive tackle in the 1st round, and 3 teams drafted 2.
     
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  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Top 12?

    Nope, usually they are taken much later AFTER you have playmaking positions ironed out.

    Which means..guess who is and who ain't a "cornerstone"?
     
  32. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    More than one way to build a team. Top 10 OL drafted since 2008:

    2008 = Jake Long Mia
    2009 = Jason Smith StL
    2009 = Andrea Smith Cin
    2009 = Eugene Monroe Jax
    2010 = Trent Williams Was
    2010 = Russell Okung Sea

    3 out of 6 played on teams that made the playoffs last year. The 3 teams that didn't had starting QBs drafted in the top 10.
     
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  33. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    You can say the same thing for EVERY position on both sides of the ball if you're looking to slant an argument that their presence didn't help the team achieve success or whatever.

    Obviously not every great lineman will lead to a productive offense or successful team. Cmon. You also can't pair a great lineman or two with a poor surrounding line b/c they work as a unit, and a great unit can immensely impact the game as San Fran has clearly shown; however you can't build a great unit if you don't put the resources into it. You can't simply draft one great player and say, "that's it, my work is done".
     
  34. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    you don't think 20 more sacks makes a difference on the longevity (or even the ability to play by season's end) for your franchise QB? Or are you just glossing over that detail as usual?

    I do agree that you don't need the 10 million dollar franchise LT to win, but you do need a good one to give your QB time to throw. If you think otherwise, you're just being myopic to prove your point. So, then we can ask, can Martin develop into a "good" enough LT? Possibility is there, but he has a long way to go. We should have the goal of superbowl in 2 years with the money we've been spending as well as all our young talent. I'm not sure we have time to let Martin develop AND get someone to also develop at RT. We have the cap space to shore up one of the two tackle positions.
     
  35. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Smith has been dreadful in Cinci, w/i why no one wants to sign him, Monroe? Really?

    And the team's record in that time has been what?

    We've been sub .500, ditto Jax/Wash/Stl, Sea maybe is over .500 since then, but barely

    Now look at the Wr's those teams also acquired, and De's etc, Cinci making the playoffs w/o AJ Green?

    And two of those 6, wait for it, are so valuable they are playing for other teams now, yep, cornerstones/franchise players.
     
  36. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    I have no idea what you're trying to say. Normally I could perhaps blame it on the beer but my fridge has been empty all day.
    You asked for examples. I gave them to you. Are you really attempting to argue the facts? :lol:
     
  37. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    maybe it didn't help them because they suck.

    We keep going around in circles for every position. You put an elite player at any position on an offense, it will make the job easier for the other 10 players on offense (or defense)
     
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  38. mroz

    mroz Rosen is a franchise QB Club Member

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    Did it ever occur to you that football is a team sport? Offensive linemen dont score TD's but playmakers cant make plays without OLmen. I mean really how can you not see that? it is pretty freaking simple.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    For the people that do pay attention to line play, can you quantify the difference between a great LT and an average LT?
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Let's see, all 12 playoff teams + 10-6 Chicago prioritize Oline enough to spend a 1st on a tackle recently.

    Meanwhile, 9 of 16 sub .500 teams have not invested a 1st in tackle recently.
     

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