Kudos to you DJ for sticking by your man for two years now. I like Tyson Jackson a lot as well, especially as a 3-4 end or NT. I think he'll be a solid player in the league for a long time.
but we do have Merling and Langford.... and were talkin about 2 different positions here with Jackson vs. Maybin, Brown and Orakpo. OLB is a major need...
Thanks lil bro, ?, if we had a need at D end, along with our current status at linebacker, who would you take out of the 4..
your right..back on track.. I wear english gentlemen, stings the nostrils..smells like pure gasoline, illegal in 11 countries ya know.
You're right, Alen. Fun debate. I'm not saying that English isn't athletic or am downgrading his game (we all have weaknesses)... I just feel that Brown is more athletic. Yes, English is relentless with an awesome burst and is extremely quick inside 5 yards.... but I don't see Larry being as athletic when it comes to side-side agility as Ev. IMO when Larry has blown by a tackle, he better get to the QB b/c he is going to run right past him half of the time and take himself out of making a play. Larry should've had a lot more sacks last year, but he didn't b/c of this. God knows he beat his man enough, but he doesn't have the quick-twitch muscle change of direction ability that Brown has to finish a play as often. I see NFL tackles only having to redirect his incredible momentum a hair so all the QB has to do is step up in the pocket and Larry will run a yard or 2 by him. B/C of Brown's better ability to stop and start his feet and change direction, I feel that he will be a better finisher at the next level as he matures his game. I totally agree. But he's only a Junior, and this is correctable through coaching. Relying on his quickness means he has quickness... which other players can't learn through coaching. His spin move is also a physical gift that others can't duplicate through repetition unless they have a natural talent for it. These are 2 skills in which he has a permanant edge over most pass rushers. As he learns a broader reportoire, tackles will have to respect these new aspects of his game rather than just anticipating his spin move... which will keep them off balance more often... hence not being able to stonewall him like they did in college. Dont forget Everette has played 2 less years than Larry. To expect Brown to possess the pass rush skills that Larry has learned in his extra 2 years is disingenuous. On the contrary, to do what Ev did this year as a Junior in a tough conference is quite amazing for still being raw and undeveloped. That's my point exactly. A change up comes out of the hand with the same motion, hand positioning, and arm velocity as a fastball. It's effective because it looks like a fastball at first glance, only to find out that it's a 20 mph slower pitch that catches the batter off guard. Right... he doesn't change his stance to give a tackle anything to go on, just like a change up compared to a fastball. It's not till the change up gets to the plate that you can react to it. B/C of Ev's quickness,explosion, balance, and ability to spin/change direction two steps into his burst, he can make his initial burst look exactly the same each time... and it's not until he's right on the tackle that they realize his "pitch" is not a fastball...rather it's a spin move or bull rush. The second you give your opponent time to diagnose what you're doing, you lose effectiveness (look at the best route running WR's when they are coming out of their breaks- they have the ability to give nothing away until they're ready to make their move.... no studder steps ahaead of time... nothing). Brown doesn't have 4 different moves, but he has 3 completely different impact moves that can all be expanded upon (like Maddux). He can still add an effective rip/swim to play off his bull rush and now you have 5. LOL. Anyone with some ability can learn these if they try, as you know. When you add these new moves to his exposion/reaction time, it will magnify their effective. I agree about English being able to grow as well.... I just feel he has to grow into a different direction than Brown in order to be successful, which will also take some time. Gearing his game toward being a technician, watching game film, studying opponents and tendencies is where I feel his best game will have to come from. Fortunately, he's an extremely intelligent person so IMO this fits perfectly with his talent level and will make him successful. I feel English is EXTREMELY quick in a straight line burst or with a slight arch, and his 1st 3 steps are TOP NOTCH just like you feel, which makes him very athletic in this regard..... but IMO this quickness/explosiveness is not related to the athleticism stemming from the quick twitch muscles that Brown uses to spin in mid burst, stop on a dime, or change direction. I see this b/c IMO Larry seems to play heavier on his feet evidenced by too many times overrunning a QB after beating the LT.... where as I feel Brown could have redirected himself and made the play. I concur here. LOL. Sorry, when I was referring to his reactionary instincts on the fly against tackles, I wasn't referring to instincts toward diagnosing the play..... rather I was referring to reactionary instincts as to what he is about to do to the tackle. B/C his body reacts so fast to what he wants to do, he can wait till he's on the tackle to decide how he wants to handle him... where as I feel Larry will be more effective figuring out what he wants to do before the play happens.
I know people knock him b/c of a lack of sacks, but didn't he put a ton of pressure on QB's that's gone slightly unnoticed?
Totally bro..has'nt gone unnoticed from these eyes...The defense he played dictated him setting the edge a lot, which he does better then ANYONE in this draft imo.
both those teams need D end help, buffalo's a little light in the rear, which tyson is not, and denver is always trying to fing the right defensive lineman, for denver to go hybrid would be foolish, they need to get bigger and stronger..anyone who passes on him in favor of one of the hybrid players while having d end issues is making a mistake, hes a cornerstone player, and as close to a sure thing as anyone.
I disagree with you here. I don't think Everette Brown has lateral speed and quickness like English. Your going to see this with many pass rushers that rely on their speed rush. This is true about English, as he does tend to take himself out of the play. The same goes for Everette Brown and the same can be said about Aaron Maybin. What those three have in common is that they all rely on a speed rush and they're all raw pass rushers. He's declared for the draft so his coaching at the next level starts at the same time as these other pass rushers. I think you can develop a spin move. It isn't a hereditary/genetic trait. Its a pass rush skill that is able to be developed through coaching. Not sure I get your point here because you can apply that to all pass rushers. I think its one of those obvious things and I don't mean that as a rude comment. That's not my intention at all. Everette has played one less year. English was injured in his first year and only took part in one game. They aren't far apart in the learning curve, despite English's extra year. What you want is to change up your stance to give the Tackle multiple looks and him not have an idea as to what your doing. This goes back to him being stoned by the Tackle. If your going your opponent the same look often, he's going to be in that same spot regardless of what you do and it won't be effective. All the Tackle has to do is set his feet and slide over, which is what often happens to Brown and that's why he's not a consistent pass rusher. That's my point. He lacks those multiple pass rush moves, as do some of the other pass rushers in this class, like Larry English for example. And each player can develop there pass rush game, which you note above, and that's why I don't understand the higher grade for Everette Brown when he's not further along the learning curve than English. Couldn't the same case be made for Everette Brown when he overpursues? Because he does it as well. He will overpursue when playing the run and rushing the passer, much like English. Also, are you implying that English can't turn and get after the QB? It seems to me like your implying that English is a straight-line player only while Brown is not, despite them having the same issues. Gotcha.
Alen, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong. Since assessing talent is objective, of course we'll all see things a little different. LOL. I wanted to do a little comparison by looking at English and Barwin when they are at their best.... so I only had to look at their highlight films one after the next. If it's one of their strengths then it should be on their highlight reel, right. The best part of their game should be here, or else it wouldn't be a strength in the first place. I excluded pass rush skills b/c those can be learned. When I watch Larry's "best" play, I say "wow", this guy is tremendous in a straight line! But as soon as he has to change direction, he's not the same player. I don't see him stunting bc he's not as effective when he's not going north south out of the gate. He doesn't take good angles b/c he can't stop and start or redirect himself very well. B/C of this, he has far fewer sacks than the number of times he beats his man would suggest. In pursuit, open field, or when a play breaks down, he moves in an arch due to his heavy feet which prevent him from taking quicker angles. B/C he can't change direction easily, he doesn't get into position to disrupt many passes. He's intelligent, but he doesn't seem to be congnizant of what the QB is doing with the ball... or maybe he doesn't possess the instincts to do so. When plays string wide I don't see him having the lateral agility to quick step etc to stay in control of the play. He showed one spin move, but he lost balance and fell down right in the path of the QB who was stepping up. Comparing English to Barwin, I see a very big difference. Connor's instincts of how the play is developing is impeccable. He is extremely congnizant of what the QB is doing and has extremely quick feet and long arms to disrupt the pass. He is very light on his feet and can shift them easily to make plays and redirect his pass rush to get to the QB without wasting precious time. B/C of this, he's an effective stunter. When plays break down, string wide etc, he has the athleticism, balance, explosion (from his ridiculous vertical and broad jump) and quick choppy feet to take great angles and stay in front of the play to shut it down. He will get just as many sacks by his ability to track down a QB as he will off of his initial pass rush. For Everette, I see the quickest initial reaction time. He's been effective lining up inside and outside. I'm not sure about his instincts yet. It could just be that he plays a little out of control b/c he's raw with tons of explosion. He might just need a good coach to help tame him coupled with a few more years of learning the game since he's only a Junior. He makes a ton of plays behind the LOS b/c of his reaction time to the snap coupled with a tremendous one yard burst. Like Barwin, he's light on his feet so he can change direction quickly and take better angles rather than running an arch to try and make the play. He shows the possible awareness to disrupt passes and has the athletic ability to do so. I didn't get into the actual pass rush b/c they're all comparable in effectiveness in that regard. But again.... this is just what I saw. LOL.
Agreed, I'm just trying to figure out some of the things noted. I think he changes directions pretty well. I don't think he's fluid in his hips by any means but I don't think he's as bad as you say but not all of us see the same thing. I can agree with the rest of it though, except his lateral agility. I've stated my thoughts on that already though. This I agree with. I think Barwin will get stiff in his hips at times but overall, he changes directions well and can turn and run. Again I agree with you here. That's what I thought was our main topic.
Barwin. And sorry DJ, I missed your post about Tyson Jackson or an OLB. In this draft class, I'd take Tyson Jackson simply because the class has a lot of conversion players and because I believe in starting from the trenches.
I'd toss English, Jarron Gilbert and L Sidbury in there Dj, with the pats picking ahead of us on every pick, we could be going plan B more then we'd like. Damn patriots..
There is a lot of truth to that and probably factors in on why were duing such due dilligence in scouting diverse players at different positions...no way we can make a mistake and show our hand...the rest of the NFL is not stupid, they Respect the avatar as well..
I see English being quick after he's redirected side to side... but when he has to initially change his course is where I see Brown having the edge as it takes Larry a few exrtra forward steps to slow down then turn and go... esentially being more of a straight line player like you reference a few quotes later. It's not just the overrunning of a speed rush that I see.... it's a lesser ability to redirect his speed rush based on what the QB is doing. When I watch Barwin, he can instantaneously cut his rush back inside if the QB steps up or it it's a run. I see Brown having a better ability to do this than Larry b/c Brown is more agile and plays with a little better balance, but I don't see him like Barwin. Good point. I'm just saying that I don't feel he should be penalized on film now in areas that any player would be deficient in as a Junior. LOL. I would say that it could mean you're drafting a guy who might not make as much of an impact his first year though. I disagree on the spin move b/c much more is involved than just learning to spin for it to be successful. There's balance, athleticism, awareness, foot quickness, etc that are all natural talents that cant be learned through repetition alone. Brown has the edge here. Larry is too foot heavy to have a great spin move. No, no offense taken at all, Alen. If it's an obvious thing, then shouldn't Ev get the benefit of the doubt that he can overcome being stonewalled just like every other pass rusher. LOL. I was actually referring to the extent that he will be able to keep tackles off balance with extra moves b/c of how explosive he is along with his awesome spin move. It makes for a compounding effect when other skills are added b/c there are too many strong points to be prepared for. I guess for me, what separates the average from the great is natural ability.... and I feel that Brown has more to work with than virtually everyone in the draft in this regard. You can make a good argument for this being the case, b/c as we have both said.... Brown doesn't have the greatest pass rush skills... so something has to be the Xfactor to enable him to be a dominant Junior verse quality competition. By default, that's natural ability- including athleticism and reaction times. Other players don't possess this.... or else there would be more Junior and Seniors dominating at the collegiate level in this manner. Good point about English's injury. He can still move his position along the line to create different angles and such, cant he? I go back to Lawrence Taylor for instance- he's the epitome of showing his move when he's right on the tackle, and that's kind of what I"m referring to. If he in fact does need to give different looks, can he be taught that? I don't feel Brown is further along then Larry and he does lack multiple pass moves, but I do feel he has more natural, raw talent to work with to further improve his skills. As far as a speed rush, we both know that a player who is more explosive will have a better speed rush, which is where Ev and Larry have an advantage.... as this is a natural gift that can't be learned. Along with his spin, these are 2 skills that Brown has that many others aren't able to master through practice. It's just like a QB having a cannon arm. There's no way Penny can ever be like Elway no matter how many arm strengthening excercises he does. LOL. Now if the rest is all equal and everyone can equally learn the other pass rush moves, then Brown still has an advantage in speed rush and spin move. Yes, you could make a similar case against Ev. The difference I see: If English needs to turn to get to the QB, it takes him a few extra precious steps to do so. Brown, not as many. When I watch most every play English makes, it comes when he has the play in font of him... that includes when he's running on an arch or had a chance to turn and run parallel to the line, b/c the tackle is still made in a straight line in front of him. Most of his sacks when the QB was out of the pocket was when he was in a straight line burst w/o having to redirect his run. I agree that Brown will overrun his share of plays, too, but I feel he will offset a few more of those than Larry b/c he plays a little lighter on his feet. Despite all this, I still feel Larry is an impact DE in the NFL. LOL. The edge I do give English right now is he seems to have more core strength at this point.
hahaha. How did you know? I like barwins instincts, height, and arm length better. I also like that I know he's not a contract year player and plays b/c he truly loves the game while having an intense desire to compete at a very high level.
I could just be overly critical b/c of how much I like Barwin... and b/c I see Brown being more fluid. As a pass rusher as you say, it's probably enough to suffice.... and if he's not getting to the QB, at least its still pressure that forcing the QB to make a play. I think this is what's making him a borderline 1-2 rounder, b/c he has much of the rest of the package. If he were more fluid in the hips, he'd probably be closer to the Orakpo category. It's funny how he can seem a little stiff in the hips... especially in his initial get up off the line... and then be able to start and stop/redirect in the manner that he does. LOL. That's an enigma. LOL. I was conceding that they're all pretty equal as far as the ability to speed/bull rush and all need to develop more skills.... so I left out the initial pass rush stuff.
Gotcha. I agree with you here; I believe you mean English is stiffer in his hips than Brown when it comes to turning and running. I understand what your saying. What I'm saying is that there isn't much difference between the two, despite one having an extra year of play over the other. Brown declared for the draft instead of further improving his game at FSU, therefore leaving him open to criticism. I agree with you on the traits of athleticism, etc. However, my point was that you can develop a dominant pass rush move, such as a spin move. Forgive me if I misunderstand this but your saying that Brown has the most potential of the pass rushers in this class, correct? I think he can be taught that. I think it just solidifies my point as him being a raw pass rusher. I think we agree somewhat on the spin move. I agree with you that you need to have good balance and I think that a good first step is key to it because if you give a foot jab to the outside and then kick it back inside with a spin, your likely to be in the backfield in a short time. I can agree with that. That's a good point. I think he can be a end or a weakside linebacker.
I said in September that English would be an early second rounder. I still see him there but it wouldn't shock me to see him go 23rd or 24th. Not sure what you mean here. Orakpo is very stiff in his hips due to excessive muscle mass IMO. I'm talking about him in the rover role, not as a down linemen. When asked to turn and run, he will look a bit stiff in his hips at times.
This thread points up our strategic problem in this draft. Take Barwin at 25? He's had a year as a OLB/DE English at 25? Small school player So say we take Hood at #25, the pats will have picked off their OLB at #23, we need a OLB at #44 or a CB, the pats need a Cb as well, but they pick right behind us, if we hope that a player slides to #57, they will have to make it past the Pats before we take them, at positions like Te or Cb or De or OLB/ILB because are needs are somwhat parallel unless we find our guy at #44 the pats will be able to beat us to the player. We could reach for English at #44, or Sidbury or Gilbert but to me that is too low a pick for that type of player.
My bad about being confusing on the Orakpo comparison. That was more intended on draft potential than an actual comparison to Brian. LOL. Sucks when you have to try and type all this stuff! Good call on Larry back in September. I think you have a great eye for the game. I gotchya about Connor now. I agree. I'm probably severely nitpicking on Larry with some of that stuff, especially if he's better suited for the weak side. I'll get back to the other stuff later. LOL.Good talk! Posted via Mobile Device
Great topic Padre! Hugely valid point! We could discuss this one for days. It would almost make sense to bypass one of our initial needs to draft better player available the rest of the draft in order to outmaneuver NE.
That would give us a start at corner....then we could make up for OLB needs with a guy like Victor Butler later on... if its only pass rush that we want. Just brainstorming possibilities here. LOL. I'd also like to squeeze James Casey and Dorell Scott into the mix before they can get their grubby hands on them!!
no $#!+ I was actually referring to Victor Butler the pass rush specialist I started this thread with. LOL Posted via Mobile Device
Especially at WR. LOL. Make them 88 and 89....and leave off their first initials....and maybe we could mix up the defense from time to time.
Aqua, I wonder if NE is thinking the same exact thing we are... and are discussing "one-upping" our one-upping plans this very moment? Would that mean they're 2-upping us, and we'd have to 3-up them to get even? Or does that mean we would just have to go back to our original plan of no 1-upping?
I hope that's not another inuendo. confusion-goo....you say tomato- I say tamato. Rofl. Yeah, I do tend to get a little deep at times. No pun intended. Hahaha Ya know...you brought up the "drafting Alphonso" to stay one step ahead of NE in order to outsmart them all draft, so I thought you'd get this mess of confusion. LOL. Again no pun intended. Hardy har har
I'm referring to your post #109 if it didn't make sense. Sorry, Aqua...I just realized you said "but I digress". I thought you were saying "Alphonso Smith" as our first pick as a way to outstrategize NE the rest of the draft and beat them to the punch for many of our shared needs. My bad.
Aqua. I think I've only been here a few weeks now. Sharing the same needs with NE like you and Padre mentioned is why I said the whole confusion mess about 2-upping and 3-upping. LOL. Kind of like being a double agent or a very confusing triple agent.
Maybe, we can't let them change our approach either. But your line of thought could lead us to a Wr at #25. If we look at were the p rush should be coming from DE/OLB or occasionally ILB, to me it points to another DE at #25 as Roth isn't garbage, he is effective at what he does. If it is approached from a player development standpoint with "Merling and Langford and Dotson will pick up their pass rushes via the learning curve" the same could be said of Roth whose had 1 year at OLB and played with a bum groin later in the season.
If anything it should make for a much more exciting/nailbiting draft than we're used to....especially for guys like us who at least know what is going on with it. By the way, you guys here are an awesome bunch of fans to share a passion for the Phins with. Posted via Mobile Device
