1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Which PASS RUSHER would you rather have?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Mar 27, 2009.

Tags:
  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Padre, are you listing those guys as hypothetical.... or who you feel we're looking at....or are you basing it on our previous posts regarding the possibility of having our minds made up, hence not caring about further scouting them.

    I could only imagine the draft day warroom looking like Monday morning on "wallstreet". LOL. I'd like to see an air traffic controller try and compete with this multi-tasking stress fest! ;)
     
  2. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    We can agree on that. There shouldn't be high expectations for him and I can understand your concerns for him changing positions, they're valid. However, I still think he can be a 3-4 outside linebacker but not a guy who will drop into coverage much and that means he would be playing weakside linebacker. He would simply be going down hill and asked to get after the QB ala Joey Porter. And that's something that I think he can do. He's got a great motor and his first three steps are lethal as they come in this draft class. He also does a good job of shedding blocks.

    If I may ask, where do you grade Everette Brown? Is he worthy of a first round pick in your eyes?
     
  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Only as examples, I'd think we have our guys targeted and more importantly studied who other teams are more then likely to draft, that is how we ended up with Melring last draft

    We have our guys flagged, and we have the guys other teams are most likely to draft, and we match that up to our study of our needs and came up with a Top 30.

    That is how we could go CB in rd 1, a player like Davis or Jenkins slides to us and we look at them v say English and based on what they like we decide.

    Would English be as valuable to the front 7 as Vontae Davis would be to the back 4?

    Honestly I'm not seeing it, but if a Johnson or Maybin or maybe Barwin was there, then we would stick to the script becaue they have more upside IMO.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  4. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Thanks. I watched his highlight reel so I could consistently see him while he's "at his best" compared to the Independence Bowl when he looked horrible standing up....and the thing that I most noticed was what you just said.

    He reminded me of a track star who relies on the best possible start off the blocks to beat his competition. I almost wonder if it's something he's consciously worked on/ overcompensted for bc he knows he's much stronger in 2pt than standing up. After all, he did score a 34 wondelic. He has the brains to notice something like that and then adjust his game to overcome some serious deficiencies.

    This is the first time I've really put 2 and 2 together on this. As a DE, I just moved him into the mid first round.
    New assessment: English is an analytic. He will become a master technician as DE at the next level...especially when he's not double teamed! Thank you for helping me "get" Larry.
    I totally get him now. English sees angles, advantages, and leverages that most players in the NFL would be lucky to see. He is the kind of analytic who will have a LT figures out by the 1st quarter and exploit him the rest of the game. ;) He knows this is where the strength of his game comes from so you can bet your a$$ he will study a lot of film...and he will mentally outplay his opponents. IMO This is something that will hinder his game coming off the edge bc a 2 point stance is integral to his success. I've been wrong. The 2 pt stance isn't his crutch; it's his strength....and personally I'd never draft someone away from their strength.
     
  5. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

    17,117
    16,188
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    Well away from here
    Beat me to the punch alen. English has been in a two point stance a bit during his career.
     
  6. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

    1,498
    156
    63
    Mar 30, 2008
    There are couple of guys we've shown a lot of interest in. Malaluaga, Matthews and Barwin come to mind. I think one of those guy will most likely be our number one. With Ginn, Camarillo, Bess and London I don't see us drafting WR first round. And I don't see Tuna and Sparano drafting CB ahead of LB.

    I just see the pick as pass rushing LB. Those are the guys we've shown a lot of interest in amongst the first. Sure we're checking out other positions because you never know who will suddenly drop. But I'm pretty sure our first rounder will be a pass rusher.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  7. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Virginia's Clint Sintim continues to go unmentioned. :wink2:
     
    padre31 likes this.
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Not to ride you Alen, but do you know if anyone has Sintim going in the first round?

    Besides me?:lol:

    Seems like I've seen a small handful of mocks that had him going to Atl or NE, but there were only maybe 2 that did so.
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Do we take Maualuga over a pass rusher if he falls? Personally, I'd rather have Barwin or Mathews...although Clay could be long gone...I guess Connor could be, too.

    Or- do we take Rey over Sintim (whom I think would make one hell of a blitzing ILB)?
     
  10. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    I recall us discussing this in the Club Level at one point but I could be wrong lol. My memory is as good as the elderlies. But yeah, I have him as a first round pick. As of right now, I have him slated to go twenty-fifth overall.
     
    padre31 likes this.
  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    My ears must be burning bc I was typing Sintim while you were posting his reference. LOL.
    I'm concerned with him being a situational pass rushed in the NFL bc IMO he plays so well when the play is in front of him, around the LOS, and in more confined spaces....but as a MIKE, I get the feeling he's an every down impact player.
     
  12. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    He wouldn't be a situational pass rusher here. He'd be a 3 down player IMO.
     
  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    To me, he is Carl Banks Jr on the Strongside with a better pass rush.
     
  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Padre, did you misspell Evander Ziggy Hood as Ron Hood by accident in your signature? or does this kid another nickname? LOL
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    My bad, I thought "Ziggy" and Ron were the same player, I like the one from Mizzou for us ToddsP.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  16. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    I think you've confused Evander "Ziggy" Hood of Missouri with Ron Brace of BC.
     
  17. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Ziggy is the one I'd like to pick up, failing him the Sen'drick Marks.
     
  18. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    From what I saw, it seemed as though his best play was in or around the box, so I wasn't sure how'd he fair in other duties playing opposite Wake in a few years. He's a beast, but he doesn't seem extremely athletic.
    I would draft him in the first because of his instincts, effectiveness against, the run and ability to blitz. I don't see him being a guy who can turn and run with TEs if needed or tracking down plays from behind as much. I guess that doesn't mean he can't be a starter, but how much of a liability is it?
    Can somone break down accurately what the role of our ideal LOLB (down to percentage of time in these roles) assuming Wake as our primary future pass rusher?
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  19. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Gotcha. Sorry padre, I was looking at your mock but I guess you hadn't updated it after TP pointed it out.
     
  20. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    I disagree with you here. I think he can turn and run because I've seen him do it and do it pretty well. He's not overly great at it and he can look a bit stiff in his hips at times but I think overall he does it pretty well. I saw him cover slot receivers and tight ends this past season and didn't have issues with it. I also think that if Cameron Wake was to pan out, he'd likely be a weakside rusher (assumption) because Sintim is a strongside 'backer. Sintim can set the edge well at that spot and still get after the quarterback. As much as coverage is talked about with outside linebackers in a 3-4, I don't recall much of it from our weakside and strongside linebackers. I think it was Disgustipate who has stated several times that coverage is overblown when it comes to outside linebackers in this scheme. I think he's right from what I've seen but I can't claim to have seen every Miami Dolphins game this past season.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  21. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Hes a bada$$!! I doubt he makes it past Indy's overweight DLine. :chuckle:
    IMO he's severely underrated by analysts.
    I'd love to have him in our DE rotation while bringing him in as a situational pass rush Tackle. Merling's going to be solid so it would suck to have Ziggy push him to the bench. LOL
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alen, thanks for the vote of confidence. I only saw enough of him to give me some hesitation. If he's even aveage in those regards, then I'd take him in a heart beat...after Barwin :D Clint was a monster against my Clemson Tigers.

    After watching him play, how do you feel about Clint being a MIKE?
    Barring Sintim from the equation, what side do you feel Wake will be strongest?
     
  23. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    I think he can do it. He doesn't have trouble with trash at his feet and I think he can get to the sideline quick enough despite his lateral speed not being great.

    I can't comment on that. I've never watched Canadian Football so I have seen zero of Cameron (or Derek) Wake.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  24. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

    1,498
    156
    63
    Mar 30, 2008
    I think Sintim will be a low first round, early 2nd round pick. I could see NE take Connor Barwin at 23 (hiss) and then we could take say a WR or CB at 25 and then get Sintim at 44. Honestly though I think the better value at 25 is linebacker. Hakeem Nicks stock has dropped and the corners aren't super impressive this year They're either short or slow or both. If we get either Barwin or Sintim at 25 it would be good day for us and a long year for the rest of the AFC East.
     
  25. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Why has Hakeem Nicks stock dropped?
     
  26. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Sorry, Alen. I completely missed this post.
    Yes, I do.... through and through. LOL.
     
  27. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    No problem dude. :up:

    Why?
     
  28. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

    1,498
    156
    63
    Mar 30, 2008
    Hakeem Nicks showed up at his pro day 14 pounds heavier and he didn't run. Some people said he looked overweight and supposedly his short shuttle time was unimpressive. He might fall to the 2nd round.
     
  29. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    IMO, comments on a player like him shouldn't be put much stock into. All GM's and scouts are going to say that as a smokescreen to potentially get him to slip to them. You could be right, he may slip but I doubt it because in my opinion, he's the second best wide receiver in this class - maybe even first - and the most NFL ready.
     
  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009

    a few reasons in my eyes:
    1. He dominated verse a high level of competition.
    2. He's shown improvement.
    3. He makes impact plays in big time situations.
    4. He has tremendous athleticism, quickness, and speed coupled with great balance to still play under control...especially considering he has the best spin move in college and he has been effective with it at DE and DT.
    5. He's relentless and can track down a play from behind.
    6. What impresses me the most is his quick twitch muscle explosion combined with what I feel is the quickest reaction time to the snap in the draft. IMO this is what will make him a bigger impact against more agile LTs at the next level, where as equally as quick pass rushers with average reaction times will get consumed more often that Everette.
    7. He frequently lined up wide at DE....and combining that with his snap reaction time, burst, balance, speed, athleticism, and ability to spin on a dime creates too much of an advantage over a tackle who is slower out of his stance and barely has time to react to/analyze what Everette is about to do to him. IMO, this confusion nullifies his smaller size bc of his ability to constantly keep linemen off balance or on the balls of their feet. He reacts so quickly and is so explosive with that crazy spin move... that if a tackle lunges for him, he'll juke or spin around them; then if they sit back, he can blow by them; and the very next play when they sit back, he can fake a speed rush and then bull rush them as they're off balance in anticipation.
    I don't see any other DE/Hybrid being able to do this as effectively verse NFL tackles...with the exception of Barwin.
     
  31. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    I couldn't agree more. I don't see much difference in Nicks and Crab....except that Nicks might be a better route runner....and more willing to do the dirty work in the NFL. ;)
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  32. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    To each his own but I'd take Paul Kruger's spin over Everette Brown's.

    I think him lining up wide goes both ways. The reason I say that is because he's awful at setting the edge and diagnosing the run. Watch him when he's asked to diagnose a mis-direction play. He gets taken out of the play completely. If you watched that UF game for example, they took him completely out of the game with the mis-direction hand-off and it got to a point in which he would sit out a whole series. I believe its the third series of that game. UF scored twice on its first two possessions, once with Jeff Demps and then another run by someone who I can't recall. The big plays came off of a mis-direction play in Everette's direction. The next series down, Everette Brown is taken off the field and the defense forces a three and out. Later in the game, the same thing happens with a long run by Demps to set up a touchdown by Tebow to Hernandez. The next UF drive, they go three and out and Everette Brown is watching from the sidelines once again.

    As a pass rusher with his hand in the dirt, I have issues with him. He does a good job of using his hands when it comes to disengaging off of blockers. However, I don't see a mix of pass rush moves from him. He's got an inside spin move and a speed rush. When the Tackle has his feet set, Brown is done. I saw that in several games this past season. I also saw Brown struggling to shed blocks at times; and I do realize that every player is not consistent but I thought it was worthy of a mention because I saw it in multiple games.

    As for him as a hybrid linebacker, he's got no coverage skills. He hasn't spent much time in coverage; the most he's done is taken roughly four or five steps off the LOS or covered the flats (same as Larry English). Off the edge, he can be a force because he has good explosion and a quick first step. However, he must add more pass rush moves to his arsenal or he will be not be an effective rusher on a consistent basis and would be viewed as the same player that he came out as, in other words not much improvement.

    The reason I asked you about Everette Brown is because I view Brown as a late first round value but he's going to go in the top ten because of the premium placed on pass rushers. I think he's overrated and quite frankly, I don't see Brown's game much better than English's. I think English has a better first step than Brown and I think English sheds blocks better than Brown and has a better motor than Brown. The level of competition is an issue as is the durability, I understand that. However, English hasn't had it much easier than Brown. You can look at all the OT's that Brown has faced and clearly admit that he's faced better competition than Brown. However, English has faced multiple blockers more than I've seen Brown face and I think that if you want to grade Brown high than you should consider doing the same with English.
     
    djphinfan and Sceeto like this.
  33. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Nicks is a better route runner than Crabtree by a mile IMO. I know some will disagree with me here but if Crabtree stayed an extra year and came out next year, I'm not so sure he would have been the top receiver in the class. I think Oklahoma State's Dez Bryant would have a strong case as the top receiver in the class.
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    agree again...especially not knowing who's throwing him the ball. ;). Give me a sec on the other one. On an iPhone here. LOL.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  35. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    Haha, no worries man. I'm headed to sleep anyways. I'll catch up to the discussion tomorrow - its a good one :up:.
     
  36. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alen, I agree with almost everything you said about Everette....except I feel all of his weaknesses can be overcome through coaching and a more extensive pass rush reportoire can be learned. What can't be learned/taught is Everette's athleticism, quickness, reaction time, and balance. IMO, he is the most gifted, pure pass-rusher in the draft who IMO gives you the most tools to work with. He does have a few years of a learning curve ahead of him at OLB to be an effective 3down player, but that's worth the wait to me.

    Everette doesn't have to rely on his spin move to beat tackles. The mere presence of it opens up whatever else he wants to do to a tackle in the same way that a good change up can set up an average fastball. LOL. The tackle's thinking "this looks like the same approach- is he going to speed rush me, bull rush me, or spin around." Just like how a change up comes out of a pitcher's hand(deception) is the reason for it's greatest effectiveness... is the same reason Everette will be effective. He can spin at the pinnacle of his burst, and he can cut back into a tackle to bull rush him before the tackle can adjust. He's like a Greg Maddux as a pass rusher! Add a few skills of the trade and he is a dominant pass rusher at the next level IMO.

    The only thing i disagree with is one comparison to English. LOL. No doubt that English has an extremely quick 3 steps, but IMO he has consistently average reaction time to the snap compared to Brown (not to be confused with the times he anticipated the snap count well). At the next level I don't feel Larry has the athletic ability/ quick twitch muscles like Brown to keep tackles off balance as often. Any pass rush moves Larry posesses, Everette can learn in time to neutralize that factor. I see larry being smarter and more exacting...assessing what he's going to do to the tackle before the play begins (like a chess move), where as I see Brown playing with more reactionary instincts on the fly against tackles while the play is transpiring.
    Both ways can be effective....I just prefer the latter. The only way I wouldn't like his quicker reactionary time is if it inhibited his balance and made him sloppy like Maybin, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
     
    MrClean likes this.
  37. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    if you showed me Devone Bess' stats and the stats of the top WR's in last years draft, i would have probably picked Bess. I can't believe he wasn't even drafted. what a steal! I can't wait to see what steals we get this year. It's nice to have confidence in the Front Office!
     
  38. alen1

    alen1 New Member

    52,829
    20,379
    0
    Dec 16, 2007
    You continue to point out his athletic traits and I see those same traits in Larry English's game, yet you downgrade English but not Brown. Why is that? They can both be effective weakside pass rushers.

    Brown relies on his quickness to get by blockers. He does go to his spin quite often though and as I noted earlier, he is stoned once the Tackles feet is set. That happens quite often to Brown.

    I understand what your saying in regards to him changing it up or playing mind games with the Tackle as I like to call it. However, he doesn't do that. He doesn't alter his stance to give the blocker a different look and he doesn't have multiple pass rush moves in his repotoire. To compare him to a pitcher, Everette Brown doesn't have four different pitches and that's an issue as of right now. He's still a raw player who has some growing to do and the same exact thing can be said for NIU's Larry English.

    I don't understand how you can say that when Larry is one of the quicker players on tape. I know many look to his times at the combine and I'm not implying that you are but I feel that it should be noted in this conversation. Throw away the numbers that are on the paper and pop in the tape. Larry English has arguably the quickest first three steps of any pass rusher in this class and the only two names that have a case against him are PSU's Aaron Maybin and Houston's Phillip Hunt.

    I don't want to use the word 'suck' but I think they both are pretty bad at diagnosing the play, which is one of the reasons why you see them struggling to set the edge. The other being that they're asked to strictly rush the passer as weakside linebackers or left ends.
     
  39. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,159
    7,741
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Ditto on that Ricky. I'm looking forward to finding out what diamond in the rough we find this year. ;) I still hope we sign DJ Boldin as a FA Rookie.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    96,658
    49,547
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    If it was'nt for Merling and Langford, we wouldnt be talkin about anyone else but Tyson Jackson.......i just dont agree with players like maybin, brown and orakpo being projected over a player like Jackson.
     

Share This Page