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Which PASS RUSHER would you rather have?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Mar 27, 2009.

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  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Here is a fun little brain teaser. Based on the following performance numbers of 2 players, which player would you rather draft? I'm not giving their names yet but you can guess if you like.

    * These are both DEs/HYBRIDS available this draft.
    * One is a 1st rounder, the other a 6th.
    * They are of similar size, strength, explosion/leaping, and speed...and both were 1st Teamers in their conference.
    * One player missed 11 games with an ankle injury, tore an ACL another year, and also tore a pectoral muscle.
    * One player helped beat a top team in the country.

    PLAYER A:
    YEAR...TKL...SOLO..ASST..SACKS.....QBH....TFL....FF...FR....INT...PBU
    2006....17......10........7........3............1......5.5.....0.....1......0......0
    2007....23......14........9.......10...........4.....12.5.....2.....2......1......4
    2008....65......31.......34......12...........5.....21.5.....4.....2......0......0
    *2008 Bowl Game: 11 Tackles, 4 Sacks, 4 QB Hurries, 5 TFL, and 1 FF.

    PLAYER B:
    YEAR...TKL..SOLO..ASST..SACKS......QBH....TFL.....FF...FR...INT...PBU
    2006....51.....32.......19.......12.............0......16.......4.....1.....0......0
    2007....60.....27.......33.......10.............3......17.......1.....1.....0......2
    2008....37.....26.......11........8..............2.....16.......3.....1.....0......1
    *2008 Bowl Game: 1 Tackle.


    *Can you guess who is the 1st rounder?
    *Who had the injuries, and is he the 1st rounder or 6th rounder?
    *Which one do you think played in a weaker conference?
    *Which one showed the greatest improvement over their career?
    *Who would you rather have at OLB?
    *Who helped beat a Top Team?

    ****Please answer these before you move on to see the answer in the following post... and do this w/o googling to search for information**** LOL.
     
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  2. orangefinfan

    orangefinfan New Member

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    Brian okarpo (sp?) from TEXAS is the my guess.
     
  3. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    ANSWER:

    PLAYER A: Victor Butler, Oregon State.
    - 6th round.
    - Helped give Southern Cal their only loss.
    - MVP in 3-0 win over Pitt in Sun Bowl.
    - Showed tremendous improvement over his career in the PAC 10 verse tougher competition.

    PLAYER B: Larry English, Northern Illinois.
    - 1st Round.
    - 1 Tackle in 17-10 loss to Louisiana Tech in Independence Bowl.
    - Missed 11 games Frosh year with an ankle injury, tore ACL after Soph year, tore a pectoral muscle after junior year, and played with a broken thumb in 08.
    -Showed less improvement in the much weaker MAC Conference.

    Butler is projected in the 6th round because he is a situational pass rusher at OLB, not an every down player..... yet English is being considered as a 1st round OLB despite never playing the position nor playing much in a 2 point stance.

    If English is (hypothetically) no more than a situational pass rusher at OLB in the NFL due to being less than fluid in LB drills, would you take him with your 1st pick when you can get the slightly quicker Victor as a pass rush specialist later on? Remember, the 1st pick needs to be a starter.... which is the main reason a guy like Butler falls so far in the draft in the first place. ;)
     
  4. orangefinfan

    orangefinfan New Member

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    So....I was wrong then? :cry:
     
  5. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    Honestly seeing those numbers I wouldn't pick English with a first round pick now. His production dropped as get more experienced. I would definitely look hard at other options as a pass rusher.
     
  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    hahaha... That's ok. I probably would have been, too, if I didn't create the thread. :D
    I'm just curious how many people participate before actually looking at the answer and making this into a Larry English thread. LOL.
     
  7. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    this could be because the opposing team started to target him on a otherwise bad NIU defense.....
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Nice...there are some serious Larry English fans but I just do not care for his game, at least not in Rd #1, maybe late 2 early 3.

    And butler may surprise, 6 or 8 teams are making the 3-4 switch, we could see a heck of alot of reaches for pass rushing OLB's.
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Good argument.... but there are many DE's who were double teamed verse tougher competition and still had the same or better production.
    Connor Barwin was double teamed all year and had a better season than George Selvie.... and when he was out of the game, Cincy's D was not the same. LOL.
     
  10. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I hope not!! LOL. I'd love to snatch him up in the 6th before anyone else can get their grubby hands on him. I actually see the better "big boards" having him in the 7th.
    But you're probably right, Padre. The Pats will take him with their 5th round compensation just to piss us off!!! :no:
     
  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'm actually a huge fan of English and everything about his game/character etc.... but as a true 4-3 DE where I feel he belongs. I'd feel bad for the guy taking him away from his natural position where he has the greatest chance of success. IMO of course. LOL.
     
  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, if he has the talent, it won't matter if he plays up or down TPhins, strategically he's not worth a #1 pick IMO.
     
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  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    5th, maybe 4th, just depends, don't forget we got suckered into drafting Murphy last year because the Rams took Greco unexpectedly.
     
  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Thanks for reminding me. :wink2:
    Help me recall, Padre.... Did Parcels say he wanted to put more pressure on the QB next year, or did he say he wanted a starting OLB to put more pressure on the QB next year? (Since they can be 2 different answers)
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    :dunno:

    AFAIK the plan was to "find more pass rushers" I wasn't aware Tuna said anything specific on which positions.

    Though you have to say Wake will be in the mix, Sparano said in an interview that the film is the reality with his athelticism and we'll know day 1 with him when he lines up across from Vern C and Big Jake.
     
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  16. pennphinfan

    pennphinfan Stelin Canez Arcade Scorz

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    CB's can rush the passer too...
     
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  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I would love to be at the first day of practice to watch the Long/Wake matchup!!!!
    I think they are going to elevate eachother's play to a new level. :wink2: I'm still calling for Cam as DROY. (he might prove to be the best acquisition of the entire NFL offseason regardless of team)
     
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  18. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    No way Barwin makes it to 2nd round. There's a lot of talk that he'll go to the pats at 23. I was just checking a pats fan forum and they are all salivating at possibly getting him. They are worried we might trade up! I personally would to have him come to us at 25. He's freakishly athletic and a sack monster. We really could use someone to smack that little b***h brady around some more.
     
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  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    We'll see, he also may spend the first week of TC running down the field on kick off coverage..no free lunches in Miami..he has to earn the right to get battered by Long or Vern trying to pass rush.:lol:
     
  20. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    I would love to see that as well. I hope we get another pass rusher like Barwin or Sintim. I'm just excited about our defense. I'm remember when Zach and JT were in their prime and would just abuse enemy offenses. Teams would play us and the next week they would lose because they were so beat up. I think we could have that this year. And I think Cameron Wake can be a big part of that.
     
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  21. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I've been :pray: to the footballs Gods that we swap firsts with Minnesota to grab Barwin and stick it up NE's a$$!!!! I'll stitch his name and # on a jersey faster than my wife can fold a shirt!! :yes:
    Actually.... now that I think of it... I'll just have my wife do it. hahaha
     
  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If we had Barwin and Wake.... I doubt we draft Butler later on. I can live with that. :D
     
  23. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Not in the three games I watched of him. I've watched Larry English five times this year and while he hasn't been double-teamed every game, he's seen it more than Barwin has in the games I watched. Watch English against Ball State. Triple-teamed, playing with six pins in his hand and still applying pressure consistently.
     
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  24. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I'm going to assume that you've watched English and are not basing it off of statistics alone because English has played in a two point stance on occasions, such as against Louisiana Tech in the bowl game, in which he played the rover role. Tha rover spot is the same role that Connor Barwin played for Cincinnati this past season at times.
     
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  25. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    One of these OLBs you can draft in the late 1st/early 2nd and one you could draft in the 6th/7th range. Both played in a major conference. Which one would you want, and which one is which?


    PLAYER A
    Year GP......TKL.......TFL.......SACK
    2005 11.......5........3.0..........1.0
    2006 13......30........6.0..........3.5
    2007 13......60........22.5.......12.0 2nd team All-American
    2008 13......53........20.0.......13.0 First team All-American
    Totals 50.....148.......51.5........29.5

    Height: 6013
    Weight: 245
    40 Yrd Dash: 4.71
    20 Yrd Dash: 2.72
    10 Yrd Dash: 1.59
    225 Lb. Bench Reps: 24
    Vertical Jump: 31 1/2
    Broad Jump: 09'00"
    20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.28
    3-Cone Drill: 6.96

    PLAYER B

    Year GP......TKL......TFL......SACK
    2005 12.......53........7.0.......3.0
    2006 12.......45........10.0.......4.0
    2007 13.......77.........9.0........9.0
    2008 12......70.........13.0.......11.0
    Totals 49......245.......39.0.......27.0

    Height: 6026
    Weight: 256
    40 Yrd Dash: 4.75
    20 Yrd Dash: 2.71
    10 Yrd Dash: 1.58
    225 Lb. Bench Reps: No lift
    Vertical Jump: 34 1/2
    Broad Jump: 09'11"
    20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.40
    3-Cone Drill: 7.37
     
  26. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'm referring to the regular season when he almost never played in a 2 point stance.
    In a 2 points stance (as rover) in the bowl game, he had 1 tackle.... not very encouraging to me and backs my point about the uncertainty of his transition to hybrid.
     
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  27. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    That is true. He didnt do much of playing in space in the regular season however, he has done it, which is what my response was because I thought you were saying he had never done it.

    As for the bowl game, he struggled that game. Its obvious watching him in that game. He did provide some pressure on the QB and he was double-teamed at times but when asked to set the edge, he struggled quite a bit. However, if we're basing this off of one game then he's graded in the spot as Victor Butler.
     
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  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Without looking... I'm going with player A is Phillip Hunt and player B is Clint Sintim. ?????

    I"m not sure of 1 because I don't think Hunt earned All America 2 years in a row.
     
  29. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    What you just said is the reason why I don't think a team should draft him with the hopes of changing positions... or with the unfair expectations placed on Larry that he will do as well as a Hybrid as he will as a DE. I really feel he needs to play with the forward momentum he gains from playing in a 3pt stance. I'm glad you reminded me of the bowl game. Thanks. :wink2:

    Nice last statement, Alen. It's one of the most brutally honest things I've heard all draft. LOL
     
  30. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    I want the one that's going to eat Tom Brady and crap Trent Edwards:shifty:
     
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  31. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You win half a cookie, chocolate chip. :up:
    Player A is Nick Reed, Oregon. Player B is Sintim :)
     
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  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    We did not attend I guess. So much for interest in English, unless it is a smoke screen.:wink2:
     
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  33. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Hmmm.... I'm not sure what that says when Carolina doesn't pick till the late 2nd but still has 3 guys looking at him. Very Interesting!! Don't think they're fond of wasing their time, and I don't see them trading up a bunch of spots to get him. LOL.
    I'd like to see him in Houston with Super Mario.

    How do you guys think he'd fare as a "MIKE" when he can keep the play in front of him, play in a more confinded space near the LOS, while using his pass rush skills as an extra blitzer from up the middle?

    Or would he be limited to situation duties there?
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I think we're just not interested.... but I'd prefer that we "played interested" to make that our smoke screen. :D

    How many "virtually guaranteed" 1st rounders are we actually looking at?
    Just curious... due to our "interest" in Boldin.
     
  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Score!! Glad you mentioned chocolate chip :wink2: Oreo- you could've kept the whole thing!! LOL.
     
  36. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, oen doesn't have to send scouts to watch a player you've already made your decision on.
     
  37. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    The one that will get the most sacks.
     
  38. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Good point. :salute:
    So the million dollar question would be.... who is this player if this is the case? Wouldn't we still need a contingency plan in case he's N/A... unless we're prepared to trade up of course.
     
  39. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    an interesting point bro, if you examine his stance, its so freakin unreal, he does come beautifully out of a three point...but i still think hes such a good athlete he can play linebacker.
     
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  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    In the "words right from Sparano's mouth' thread, he mentioned they looked at Andy Alleman while in Dallas, that he was in there "Top 30".

    I'd posit there is a top 30 list, if our value guy is not there, then we go for whichever guy who we value in their place.

    Our #25 and #44 board could look like

    Johnson, Maybin, Sintim, English, Pettigrew, Smith, Ziggy Hood

    IMO our front office then wargames out "what ifs" for those slots including the #57 and as long as they are in our top 30 we take the highest player on our board in one of the positions we have targeted as priority needs.

    Lose out Johnson and we could call around for a trade back or take Sean Smith at #25...or Barwin.
     
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