What is your impression of Jeff Ireland as a GM ?

I'm not insulting you, I'm using you as an example. Which is absolutely fair game given your opinions on this matter. Relax.

In retrospect, yes, you can figure out what the correct(not obvious) choice was. But that's also appears to not work out so well in practice because this thread is full of people who can't actually use hindsight to put things in anything close to a reasonable perspective.

In terms of the actual draft? Yeah, no, not so much. Earl Thomas being a possible better choice than Odrick/Misi is one thing, but there are way more examples of the popular "obvious choice" being dead wrong. Brady Quinn, Dez Bryant, Ryan Mallett, Jerry Hughes, etc. are the easy examples of "obvious choices" that would have been awful in retrospect. If the brain trust here was left to make the supposed common sense decisions, we would be actually as honest to goodness ****ed as you like to pretend.

 

The part that wasn't talked about enough was how little he got for that pick.

You are sitting there and have Earl Thomas and Dez Bryant in your lap. Two of the most coveted players in that draft, and you pull 1 pick? What makes it worse is that Dallas was so hot after Dez, and he didn't know about it.

Of course, had it been me, I would have made my evaluation between those two players and taken Earl Thomas.

 

That's rather pithy, but I'm not sure what you think your point is.

Kiper, et. all are not your scouts. They are not qualified scouts. They get information from actual scouts and regurgitate it. By using their information, you are basically taking the information third hand and piggybacking off of it.

It's like you're denigrating what a doctor does after watching a Channel 7 segment interpreting a medical journal report telling you cholesterol is bad. You're ignoring the fact that you're not a doctor, the person reading you the report isn't a doctor, that you have none of the scientific or medical training unnecessary to carry out the study, but you're still not impressed based on your own background information. Background information that has almost entirely come directly or indirectly from doctors.

 

Suggesting Dez Bryant would have been a good alternative is really telling of how fundamentally flawed your perspective is.

Even if you ignore the fact that his owner/GM has come out in public and said he needs to dramatically alter his behavior or he will no longer be on the team, his actual production isn't even all that amazing to justify his draft position. He's shown promise, but not even to the point where it would be all that lamentable to pass up on him. That's not even looking into the fact that Jerry Jones has been willing to ignore some pretty serious **** from his players, and he's ready to drop Bryant.

 

This is my post that you responded to. It is full of assumptions? Such as?

 

I'm sure the decision was made early to go with Tannehill..Sherman/Philbin/Ireland will all be indicted to a degree, for Ireland that will be a dagger, but there is a good amount pressure on Tannehill being the guy, I mean we know they all pretty much signed off on him being our guy,and considering players like RG3 and Russell Wilson were available, they could all get indicted, once we know where the Qbs are after the season.

 

Hell if I was GM Tyrod Taylor would be our back up Qb to RG3....backup of the mother grabbing Ravens.not a bad gig for people that scoffed the idea of drafting him late.

 

First of all, Dez Bryant's production has been just fine. Second of all, you missed the part where we should have opened up an auction for him and fleeced Dallas.

And Jerry Jones is hardly ready to drop Dez Bryant.

 

No, no, no, you misunderstand. I didn't say your post was full assumptions. The post of mine that you questioned was a response to a post that was full of assumptions. I think if you reread it again you'll understand.

 

A 900-something yard season isn't all that impressive. If he never does better than that, he will be a disappointment. Not an awful pick as far as things go, but not what you want.

Yeah, ok then. Jerry Jones just alludes to the idea of dropping Bryant for his behavior because well, why not? It's all in good fun.

 

Either way, the guy's got a phalanx of "self-control police" around him, which I'm not sure is worth what he's producing on the field.

 

Well now, just because others are loosely throwing out assumptions, you should not let them drag you down to that level.

 

I'd bet you have been waiting for a chance to use that word ever since you first watched "300"

 

If you're still referring to trading back and taking Odrick, then for some crazy reason you're holding onto a belief that's been proven wrong, as we all know the 2010 draft was run by Parcells, not Ireland.

 

Well, if you still have a problem with it, why don't you send Parcells some hate mail [for trading back] rather than continuing on your nonsensical scapegoating tirade of Ireland for a draft he didn't even run. The facts have already been presented, so for you to continue ignoring them only speaks of one thing----- that you're hell bent on isolating one person to scapegoat for all our team's woes b/c that's mentally much easier for you.

 

I prefer to scapegoat both Billy and Jeffy.

 

I wasn't talkin' to you, baldy.

 

Baldy?? Hey! I resemble that remark. Anyway, since the two only disagreed 1-2 times on player acquisitions, I have a tough time believing the way the 1st round was handled in 2010 was one of those times. As I recall, at the PC after that draft, Ireland sure seemed pleased with how things played out from top to bottom. Of course, Billy could have been in the back of the room holding up cue cards.

 

True.... but it's not always black or white [either "agree" or "disagree"', no? There can be plenty of times where Ireland didn't flat out disagree with Parcells but felt ok about going along with Parcells' plan, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's way Jeff would've done things if it were his draft IMO.
Like was stated by two Miami Dolphins sources---- "Parcells studied the players, then set the agenda for drafting them." ..... and Ireland did say, "I'm certainly not responsible for all of it" [referring to the drafts prior to 2011].

 

I would like to see another poll that asks all the nuetrals if they are leaning positive or negative.

 

I voted for buzzed and leaning towards drunk.

 

I can buy the argument that taking Thomas would have been a good pick. But it's comical to say that it was some huge mistake to make a trade that netted 3 starters from 1 draft pick. Either choice would have been good in hindsight.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and Portland should have taken Michael Jeffrey Jordan instead of Sam Bowie. They should have taken Kevin Durant instead of Greg Oden.

Unfortunately, this is the real world. GMs cant look 3 years into the future to see who would have been the best pick before making a selection.

 

If this team struggles as bad as most of the pundits think, Ireland is the one on the hook for the lack of talent at the skill positions. Many of his acorns have already fallen by the wayside. That gives Philbin a get out of jail free card. Ireland's job is in Philbin's hands and he knows it.

 

If you're counting the quarterback as one of the skilled positions, I believe Ireland should be given time to see how Tannehill will develop if it's true he didn't pick Henne.

The quarterback drives the play in this league to such a degree that you really can't judge a guy's work until he's allowed to pick his own IMO.

 

The best time to evaluate a GM is during his off season.
Everyone knows that.

 

When we traded down in the 1st, we ended up with Odrick, and Misi, for starters. Who was the 3rd starter that traded netted us?

 

I've been a Blazers fan since their first season, and I was screaming to the heavens, before the fact, in both cases that they should take Jordan and Durant. KGW Radio in Portland, back in the 80s, did a poll on who Portland should take before the Bowie/Jordan draft. Something like 75% of people who responded to the poll said Jordan. So, the fans could see it, but the Blazers management couldn't. I think though with Oden/Durant that a solid majority believed beforehand that Oden would be the best choice for Portland. So, my wanting them to take Durant was a minority viewpoint.

 

We also received Tim Dobbins and a 5th round pick that turned into Reshad Jones IIRC.

 

That's pretty cool man. I thought Durant was a bust waiting to happen, too long, too skinny etc and I was still in diapers when Jordan hit the league.

My point is that personnel depts spend thousands of hours/millions of dollars researching these decisions while fans like me aren't doing much more than guessing. Every once in a while these guesses turn out to be right. Those guesses are seared into fans' memory. Far more often they are wrong, but those guesses are quickly forgotten.

 

The pick used for Jones came about this way:

 

I don't quite see it that way. I think the fans who are really anal in their study of personnel accrual do better than you are giving credit for. Including yourself. Honestly, look back at the last 5 drafts or so. How many times did you differ on who the team should take and how often would they have been better off had they took your choices? I'd bet you did better than "every once in a while". I think several members of just this one forum did too, and who knows when all the forums and their members are considered. I would say just sitting there and picking which players to draft would be relatively easy though, compared to all the other management related things a GM has to do. That would take a long while to get good at, if ever.
Considering to that they are investing thousands of hours/millions of dollars compared to us who really have no monetary investment, they should be doing a lot better at it, success rate wise, than they are. All that time and money spent and the teams could often probably do just as well drafting from a book like PFW or Ourlads publish. I recall that several teams tried to hire Joel Buchsbaum to work in their scouting depts, and he was never interested, out of loyalty to the Arkush family and PFW, because they gave him his start. Just watching him on sports talk shows back then, like Chet Coppock had, Joel never seemed at ease in the public eye either for that matter.
The dude who runs Ourlads now used to be an actual college scout, for the Skins, and Eagles, and perhaps another team which I do not recall right now. So, they ain't just obscure draft geek fans.

I don't think Ireland has any rare sort of eye for talent. He doesn't stink at it either though. He falls somewhere in the middle IMO among GMs for his ability to draft NFL talent. He's right sometimes and wrong just about as often. My attitude is give credit where due, and criticism where due, if one feels that way. He certainly isn't above reproach sometimes. Seems to me that there are a few folks who feel he never deserves criticism and constantly defend him no matter what. That seems as silly to me as the few folks who seem to never talk about anything other than saying he sucks. Could we do better at GM? Maybe, maybe not. If he gets fired after the team posts another losing season in 2012, I wouldn't trust Ross to hire anyone better. He may get lucky and get it right, or he could hire someone whom after 2-3 years has most fans pining for Ireland.

 

You mean we're prone to cognitive errors in the service of our own grandiosity?

The foolishness of this is quite evident as well when for example the pick of Jake Long over Matt Ryan is looked back on and stated not to be a mistake, only because the poster himself would've made the same pick and was advocating for it at the time.

What, you mean because the ultra-special YOU would've made the same pick at the time, it wasn't a mistake? Come on. As if a poster here is the arbiter of good sense, even in hindsight.

 

Do you suffer from grandiosity? Is it associated with narcissistic personality disorder? Bipolar disorder? Was it clinically diagnosed? Did you self diagnose? That's too bad if so. Maybe you can get some help for it.

 

I don't think the amateurs are nearly as close as you're suggesting. The track records aren't really very good outside of the context of mock draft analysis(picking who goes when and where, not picking who are actually the good players), and there's no accountability whatsoever. The misses rarely ever are brought up, either on an individual or mass basis. Then there's the bit of irony shouright brings up.

No one hits a success rate that is all that impressive given the money spent.

There are a lot more resources being put behind teams than individuals have, but he's also qualified to do the job from A to Z. You can't have it both ways, say that people could be more successful than they are if only they had the resources, because the gap isn't really all that small.

Yup, and there's plenty of scouts who wouldn't make good GM's and will never, ever get that opportunity. And I'm sure there are scouting positions that would be a significant raise in pay and prestige from what Joel Buschbaum does now. Maybe not an entry-level scouting job, but if the guy is that good I can't believe he wouldn't be in that position.

Most people are neutral on Ireland. He's far from beyond criticism, and I think there are legitimate arguments he should be fired... It's just that some of the arguments and comments being made are so ignorant and bad it's hard not to be drawn into them disproportionately if you are even neutral or mildly positive on him.

 

Who is "most people"???

That is not reflected by this poll, the FH poll, South Florida talk radio, nor media.

 

Well to play devils advocate this poll actually does show that more people have a positive or neutral view than a negative one. Also FH is a joke and our sports radio is pretty bad down here.

 

Very true..... but it seems many [not all, but many] of the Ireland hating people would rather see him fail to prove themselves "correct" than see us succeed.

 

It's obvious Lamar Miller was a Philbin pick. As was Ryan Tannehill and anyone else who succeed in Miami. Everyone just signs/drafts everyone who sucks!

I've even seen people giving Sparano the credit for acquiring Reggie Bush. Where the hell did that come from?