i have always had trouble understanding this. don't religious people think that God has a "divine plan," and that everything happens for a reason? then what is the purpose of prayer? is he supposed to change his plan because a person asks him to? i got the thought from reading TheRev's prayer request thread. first let me say i feel terrible for you and your family, TheRev, and i'm not criticizing you in the slightest.. but wouldn't the car accident be a part off God's plan? hasnt his mind been made already (for lack of a better way of putting it) about the fate of TheRev's mother, whatever that might be? i guess i am wondering what good it would do. it seems similar to pleading a case to a judge who has already pounded his gavel. and for the record, my question is for all prayer in general. i only used TheRev's unfortunate situation as an example. i'm not looking for a debate here, just an explanation from believers. this isnt a thread to argue God's existance or anything like that. for right now, we will assume that God exists for the sake of the discussion.
prayer is an opportunity to ask for giveness and to right yourself with God. And for those who believe, righting yourself with God is righting yourself with you. And for those with strong faith, some believe that God answers prayers, or that they can help those in need of them in their darkest hour. You mention the divine plan, although not all religious people believe in it and free-will is also a factor despite any plan...but if someone believed that things are pre-determined, you can still pray/root for it to fall a given way. kinda like watching a movie and rooting for a character. you know the end is established, but you still hope for a specific outcome. like when Miami wipes the floor with Indy on Sunday. You'll be cheering loudly, despite the effort being futile.
A question friend. Do you not talk to those you love and care about? Give them a shoulder to cry on and they do the same for you? You talk about the good things too, right? Prayer, a talk with God is no different, you tell him thank you for all the good things that happened today and the fact that you've been given another chance to get it right by living another day. Surely God knows whats in your heart but its really nice if you will say it also. So just what is so hard about that?
Prayer is more than simply giving God a laundry list of things, or actions, we wish for God to do for us. There is also, in the best understanding, and in the best time of prayer, a simple act of quieting the yammering inside our own head and simply listening. It takes a lot of practice just to allow the mind to be quiet. But, when one learns to focus not on self, but on listening for what God may wish to reveal to us, then prayer becomes a spiritual conversation, if you will, with us doing the listening. There is also a basis for understanding intercessory prayer - the prayers we say for others. Read Genesis 18:16-33. Abraham in his conversation with God about the destruction of Sodom argues with God about the destruction of the city, and God responds to Abraham's requests...God may have a plan, but that does not mean that the plan does not get some adjustment in God's way. Personally, I don't think God has our lives planned out to that detail because that removes entirely the concept of free will entirely. Further, if humans can develop, and they have, statistical means of predicting the actions of large numbers of people over the course of time, why do we limit God to a strict interpretation of what God can do based on what appears to me to be a very narrow interpretation of God's personality. And, God does have a personality. It's not as weird as mine, for which everyone in this world can be thankful, but there is a personality to God's presence and care for each of us. That also is one of the purposes of prayer, to draw close enough to God to sense what God has in mind in God's relationship to us, and to enjoy our relationship with God. Enough. I have some work to do today for God. Shalom; Rick
No criticism taken crunk. I will just echo the sentiments of everyone else here. Prayer helps to build a relationship with God. While there is a divine plan the bible tells "All things work for the good of those who love Him", there is also a need for prayer. I will speak for me. In this time of crisis in our family, I "speak" a lot to my Papa (God) and ask him to help us. My prayers (conversations) are rarely formal and more childlike asking for strength, peace, and understanding. I ask God as a child to hold me and take away the pain, to make my mom whole and make me understand why this is going on. God did not cause this to happen. My mom's choice of not wearing a seatbelt was her decision. The other's car's decision to hit my mom's car on her side was their decision. Sin does not care who it hurts. In this case it was my mom. But, back to prayer. I would not have this strength without prayer. Prayer unites me to all the people on this board and them to me. Why pray when God has already decided the outcome? Why do children ask their father for things even though you already know what the answer is going to be? To feel closer to that person and maybe, just maybe, to understand them better. That is what I think.
It's a legitimate question, no doubt and it opens the door to the paradox of G-d having a plan even though we have free will. Something to keep in mind here is that G-d is eternal and therefore timeless. A trillion years ago or a second ago, He knows it all. Therefore, there's no time limit to carry out his plan and He can be patient.That's why, the way I see it, is that His plan will come to fruition. He sends us opportunities to fulfill that plan. Do we always take advantage of those opportunities, no. Eventually, we will. Within that framework, I'm going to quote from Artscroll, a widely-used publisher of siddurim, Jewish prayer books. You can ask why pray? G-d already knows are desires better than we do. True prayer, from the heart, makes us worthy to receive His blessings. BTW, in case you don't know and are wondering the reason that I omit the "o" is because in Orthodox Judaism it's prohibited to spell The Name.
George Carlin asked that same thing? I personally don't pray and feel it is more productive to sit alone for a while and just think. I kinda envy those who are able to have such blind faith in something. I just can't "make" myself believe in something.
Think of God as your Father. Now think of your actual father. Out of all the conversations you have with him, how many times are you asking for things? Why do you talk to him the rest of the time?
I have been away helping at a wedding so it has taken me some time to get into this thread. The question is respectful and the answers have been informative. When I talk to young people about prayer I start out by asking the cutest or coolest one if the have a "special friend". After the giggling is settled down, I then ask how long would that friendship last if no communication occured. They get that asp[ect of prayer pretty quickly after that. It is a way to ask, listen, discern God's will, find a better way, etc. A good example of this would be Tevye's talks with God in Fiddler on the Roof. That may be prayer at its simplest and arguably best. For those of us who hold the Bible as authoratative, we find lots of examples of God "changing His mind" as well as regular requests/mandates to come to Him in prayer in all things within its pages. Just a couple of additional items beyond those listed by others.
Prayer for me is about the Power of Positive mind and spirit....I do think that is underestimated to often. I also think prayer installs the practice of such "positive mental" beliefs. Prayer eases the mind of worry, its a step in the positive by releasing and transferring one's inner concerns to a "Higher Authority" thus replacing negatives with positives or more tranquil -more constructive - thoughts to occupy that space. Prayer does not have to be only about passing on Negatives...or asking for something of need.....thats not the only purpose...its about being thankful for the positives received "the blessings" as well. It's the ability to pause...recap....and reflect...especially if implemented correctly and thus reinforced consistently. Prayer is not about what you expect to recevie....its about what you want to give as well. Its THANKSGIVING every day of your life! To me, its a reinforcement of trust! --------------------- An aside..... I am reading the latest Dan Brown novel "The Lost Symbols" and it covers an overview of Noetic Sciences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noetic_theory. This is the common phrased "mind over matter". Like much of what "Modern Day" science is exploring, especially via Physics....our past ancestors already tapped into, started an understanding of, and wrote about.....(including complex ideas like the Universe and string theory, etc)....but these have been lost in time....we are only now re-exploring and re-discovering knowledge of what goes back some 2,000 plus years.
To me, prayer is an opportunity to speak to God about anything, whether something is troubling you or you want to give him thanks for something that happened. It is one of the strong points in having faith in God. Also, God has a plan for everyone. With that said, God gave everyone the free will to make their own decisions.
During my struggles this past week I made the comment to my cousin that God puts us in positions and he corrected me and said through our free will the Devil uses that to put us in bad positions. And with this perspective this in it's own is reason enough to pray, to ask God help us make the right choices and help us steer clear of the devils plans.
How right you are ducken. the devil has been reeking havok in my life lately and sad to say, has succeeded in some areas. I'm hoping I'm back on track and stay that way. It's gets hard fighting him sometimes, but I just refuse to give up and know that my God will help me through this, as He always does. Please remember me and my family in your prayers.
No offense to anyone, but I actually find it mind boggling that intelligent people still actually believe that there's a "devil" who makes bad things happen. And again, respectful here...I'm curious as to how that analogy works. In order to have that communication when you talk to your friend, they usually have to talk back. All my years when I was Christian, I never quite heard God talk back to me.
Well, if you're going to believe in a sentient, spiritual force that embodies creation, it's not that much of a stretch to believe in an opposing force that embodies destruction. I have sensed communication, though I wouldn't quite call it talking.
I take no offense. I do not find the personifacation of evil to be a helpful construction for my life, but is there a "Satan"? My answer must be yes. Not the caricature found in modern media but Biblically a fallen, angelic being who opposes God. As to your second point, maybe that's why the Christian faith did not stick with you and for that I mourn. (I know you are happy so please don't dump on me for my position, apostasy is still a mournful thing for me). I have understood God answering me a number of times in my life and on two occasions actually "heard" a "voice".
Well..yes and no. My faith doesn't have a destructive force. I guess my question is why the need for a destructive force in the first place? For instance...animals meet with destruction, disease, death, etc. etc. on a daily basis. Is the devil messing with them too? If yes, why? It's not like he's accomplishing anything. If no, then what is causing the destruction for them? Could it just be the old adage..."**** happens"? Understood. But I'm trying to understand how people are so sure. Just as faith must be strong to believe in a deity, it must almost take a twisted "faith" to believe in a devil, no? There's really no proof. No bro, the Christian faith didn't stick with me because it failed to answer any of my questions. Nothing more, nothing less. And while I appreciate it, please don't mourn for that. Since finding my true path I am happier, my life is more full, and I've been a better person. You forget, I believe that there's more than one God out there. We just have to find the one that's right for us.
Well, there's a difference between questioning the existence of the devil and saying "it's mind boggling that intelligent people believe in it." Not it's not. It's no more mind boggling to believe in a devil than it is to believe in a god.
In that light you are correct. However, even when I was Christian, I questioned the devil's existence. I always looked at him as more of a figurative scapegoat for when people screwed up, so they either didn't have to accept full responsibility, or to make themselves feel better.
When I said I didn't need a personified evil, what you are saying is precisely the reason why. We humans have a way of ducking responsibility for our actions by "blaming" Satan when we should not our own choices to do wrong. Earlier you were asking about believing in Satan. I believe in the whole package of Christian dioctrine/belief. Satan is a piece of the structure. Some folks pick and choose from scripture, I struggle to make sense of all of it as a whole. It would be easy to reject one piece that was difficult or unpalatable but I can't do that. I will instead work to see how it fits together. Satan is part of the package so I study and work to discover how he fits.
I think not looking at the Bible as a whole is one of the biggest mistakes people make. To me the whole accumulation of the Biblical stories, (the OT) Proverbs, Jesus's teachings and the Epistles all combine to make the meaning of the Bible what it truly is. Picking and choosing verses or certain passages to suit your needs, or wants, can sometimes be misleading and can cause a lot of confusion and sometimes bad decisions on what's right and wrong. I also struggle with it at times, but I keep on keeping on the best that I can.
No problem. If I understand correctly, it's easiest to just give up and lose faith when you're at a low point. Keeping faith helps pull you through.
Doesn't say in the Bible not to make a spectacle of your prayer? in other words draw attention to ones self?
I'm not sure if that question is put to me or not, but if it is, let me first say that I'm not aware of it. I would be surprised if that were the case. Ironically, yesterday in the synagogue a friend of mine was praying out loud and I found it distracting. You shouldn't talk during prayer, except if necessary and definitely not in idle chatter, so at a time when it was better, but not ideal, to talk I turned to him and mentioned it. He thought that it was entirely appropriate and that there's an opinion that you should pray loud and that we should consult the Rabbi. It's also common in Friday evening for there to be a lot excitement in prayer. Dancing is very common. I'd encourage you to visit the Western Wall on a Friday evening. It can make gospel choirs look sedate. However, if it's more of a Christian matter to not make a spectacle of oneself, then the question isn't for me.
There are refrences in the New Testament about avoiding public prayer. They are in the context of folks who were publically pious but failed to live publically as they had prayed. In other words, the mandates are less about public prayer and more about a call to sincerity over hypocrisy.
i dont know...maybe too self aware of what im doing....i feel like im talking to myself listening to someone else pray in a group is fine to me. that seems more real. i have even prayed in front of people. cant really do it on my own kinda weird i guess
whenever i read your posts on this stuff i feel like you have had bad experiences with christianity or the views of others have affected you in a way that i might say is unfair characterization (not that you intend it or anything) i have tons of disagreements with a lot of aspects, but they dont change anything critical for me
Unless you only believe in the devil, I do not agree with that. First one has to believe in an all powerful god. Then the person has to believe this all powerful god is still all powerful, however there is a satan, who he has and does not have complete power over or something.
Not at all. I just never had any questions answered when I was a Christian, and when applying logic to the existence of a "devil", it just doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for sharing. For what its worth, when my head gets in the way I go to a model of prayer that is more conversational. The best example I can think of is what Tevye does in "Fiddler on the Roof" where he simply talks to God and even sometimes gets answers.
I'm glad you understand that you can't "make" yourself believe in something. I believe it is a choice to believe in something. Just like someone can choose to believe that God exists or that the Dolphins will win. I don't think it is blind faith if you know who you believe in. At least in my case I know I don't have blind faith. I know my faith could be stronger but I do have faith.
You are so right 7171. I, like you, would love to have more faith. I sometimes feel so lacking in that respect. It is a choice to believe or not. God gave us free will, I think for that reason. He wants us to freely love Him and be the very best we can be to please Him. I fail Him miserably, I'm sure. But I love Him and I know He loves me and stays with me through thick and thin. I've always said, I'd rather be a Christian and try to live right, than to think what the alternative might be. There have been many time that my faith is all I've had to keep going. I know others here don't agree and I don't argue about it with them. I have never felt the need to argue my beliefs. Their mine and I cherish them.
A curious point in 7171's and Deb's discussion is that as far as I am aware despite the central importance of faith in the Bible there is not a single place telling you how to get more? Strange huh? Lots of spots telling you how to use the little you've got and how powerful even a "mustard seed's" size is, still nothing on how to grow yours or get a second helping!
I had never thought of that Pastor. I only know that it says, believe and never doubt, love the Lord God with all your heart and soul and, as you said, the faith of a mustard seed. I think that the more you love and trust Him, studying the Bible, the fuller and stronger your faith is. Could that be the same as growing? You've got me thinking now. I'm going to talk to my Pastor about this and get his view. He has always taught us that faith is believing in something you can't see, but you know is there. Just like Jesus IMO. I don't physically see Him, but I know he's here and at times, it's like you truly feel His presence with you. Hope I wrote this well enough to be understood. My mind works much faster than my fingers. Thank you Pastor. You always give me food for thought. Bless You.
You know I believe that in my case that the more I fell in love with God that I have more faith in Him because I trusted in Him more. Does that make sense? I don't believe that you would get more faith but the faith you have can get strengthen over time. Especially if that time is spent with Him.
