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What Happened to Gibson,Hartline??

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dolfan40, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. dolfan40

    dolfan40 Well-Known Member

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  2. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    This offense doesn't seem to fit their skill set. I'm a little surprised with Hartline. While he's not a physical receiver, he's always been a precise route runner. I figured he would adapt better than he did.
     
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  3. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Here's what happened to Hartline: 36 catches, 374 yards, 4 TD, 8.0 yards/target. Wups, that's Chris Hogan's seasons.

    ..........................this is Brian's: 34 catches, 380 yards, 2 TD, 7.0 yards/target. My bad. Honest mix up. :blushing:
     
  4. normaldude

    normaldude Active Member

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    They both had season ending knee injuries.

    The NFL is a fast game, and the margin of error is zero.

    Hartline & Gibson weren't that fast to begin with. So even a slight loss of step can render them irrelevant.
     
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  5. Fins Hipster

    Fins Hipster Banned

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    And you can also ask what happened to Clay. I have no idea how an offense centered around the short passing game hasn't featured Brian Hartline, Brandon Gibson, and Charles Clay more than it has. If these guys aren't cut out for the short passing game, what are they cut out for? Nothing?
     
  6. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Charles Clay has been injured most of the season...
     
  7. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ha!

    Looks like the Hitman will be hitting free agency this year!
     
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  8. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bill Lazor happened
     
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  9. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wrote this in club but it applies here:

    The narrative that Tannehill has grown up under Lazor is a fallacy.

    Tannehill was on pace to have a great season last year until the collasal bed wetting the final two weeks. Let's not pretend that Tannehill was on the verge being replaced after 2013.....

    From what I recall, under Sherman, Tannehill was far more effective distributing the ball around the field last year than he has this year. Hartline, Gibson and Matthews have been non factors this year.
     
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  10. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Wrote this in the club and it applies here:


    Many more players are involved this year. Despite 130 less passing attempts, 10 different players have 10 receptions or more, last year only 7 players hit that mark. We have 5 players this year with more than 30 receptions, just like last year (again, on less attempts).

    Last year we had 3 players with 100+ targets (two over 134; Hartline and Wallace), which led to our top pass catchers having 76, 73, and 61 receptions. This year, it'll be unlikely that any more than two players hit 100 targets (Wallace and Landry), and our top 3 pass catchers will come out lower than last years (I'd bet there will be ~50 less attempts this year than last which will account for some of the difference).

    I mean, just looking at the numbers (and watching the games backs up this sentiment IMO) I don't see how one could say Tannehill was more effective at spreading the ball last year. Also, Gibson was a non-factor last year after week 6 or 7 (whenever he got hurt), just like Matthews was a non-factor before Gibson got hurt. The one thing we're doing worse this year than last is passing down-field (and I don't mean deep passes), because our pass catchers as a group are averaging a full yard less per reception (1.1) than last year.
     
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  11. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I don't think Hogan lines up outside, the better comparison would be Landry.
     
  12. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Don't annoy these guys with facts... they have an agenda to propagate. :lol:
     
  13. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And, that's a good thing. A damn good thing. I hope he's here for years.
     
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  14. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Best I see is that with Tannehill doing a lot more progression-based throwing this year, we're not really seeing any of those quick outs to Hartline. Over the last 2 years, that would be a designed play in which Hartline was the intended target pre-snap.

    This season, the short stuff is coming about in a completely different way. We're putting guys in motion and hitting Landry out of the slot to pick up the 5-10 yard 1st downs. After that it's a lot of short stuff to the RB or the TE in the flat and underneath areas.

    On the whole Tannehill seems to be reading the field post-snap from right-to-left, which would lead one to believe that Wallace is usually early in the progression and Hartline is generally late. Considering that our protection hasn't been wonderful this year, Tannehill is checking it down more than he is finding Hartline on the backside.

    It's just a completely different offensive structure this year.
     
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  15. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    I think I'm most annoyed by the lack of Rishard Matthews seeing targets this year. It's probably that he's just not that good or just not getting the offense.

    But here's the one guy on the roster that can do things no one else can. He's got a unique skillset (on this roster) that isn't being put to use.

    For as much credit as Lazor gets, there's a lot of aspects in the passing game that were missed this year that most other teams have and that we even had last year. Both Hartline and Matthews targets at the perimeter have been almost null.
     
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  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't know why you would be so sold on Lazor. He's done a good job with matching the run game to the talent, but other than that?
     
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  17. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    I'd really hold off on this praise. This is a copy cat league, and the last two weeks both the Jets and Ravens forced Miami to play in their little phone booth resulting in what was poor offense for 2 games straight. I'd be surprised if that didn't continue against the Pats this week.

    Unfortunately, I think we finish the season once again with a 20th or worse ranked offense.

    All the same problems this offense had last season have manifested themselves here in the past few weeks. He's hardly looked a significant upgrade over Sherman over that period
     
  18. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    See Branden Albert thread.
     
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  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Gibson is no good. One of the most over rated players by people on this board.
     
  20. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Because I understand offensive and defensive schemes, I understand the offense Lazor has implemented, and I understand why the offense it isn't working as well as it could be. I understand what Lazor brings to this team and why he is head and shoulders better than any other OC we've had in a long, long time.

    I am obsessed with understanding things. Much more so than venting or winning stupid arguments on internet forums. And I refuse to throw tantrums and throw crap against the wall whenever we lose like so many others here have. I want to understand... beyond 'so-and-so sucks'... why something did not work.

    You want to understand why I'm sold on Lazor? Spend hours and hours pouring over the history and implementation of Kelly's zone read offense like I have. Then, you'd understand what Lazor is trying to accomplish with the offense, and why it hasn't worked at times.

    Or, you can just take my word for it. Or you can think Lazor is terrible, I'm an idiot, and you can ignore me. I'm good either way. :wink2:
     
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  21. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Last year it felt like Tannehill was making the WR's and TE's around him better.. And getting larger chunk yardage plays.

    Do you feel the same way this year? Which WR's look better because of Tannehill this year? Last year Hartline, Clay, Matthews and Gibson all seemed to play above what you would expect. Do all the stats back that up? Perhaps not. But the eye test, IMHO validates my original contention.
     
  22. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not holding back s***.

    Lazor is a very good coach, and I'm convinced he's going to be great. If Albert, Moreno, and Clay stayed healthy, we wouldn't be having this conversation. You'd understand how good Lazor is.
     
  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Last year, Tannehill's top 3 targets received 64% of the passes. This year, that's down to 53%. It would seem like the ball is being distributed better this year.
     
  24. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Doesn't mean he is more effective. A lot of the balls are traveling less than 8 yards.
     
  25. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If you guys are seriously comparing Mike Sherman to Bill Lazor and coming up with Sherman being the better coordinator... you really have no clue about NFL offenses.
     
  26. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nobody said that.

    It's equally absurd to assume that Lazor is the best thing since sliced bread when you judge him on 4 or 5 games- Against pathetic D's like the Bears and Jags
     
  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You wouldn't expect that, given how bad our oline has been playing?
     
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Sherman was terrible against everybody. Lazor has us competitive in pretty much every game. Stupid penalties and dropped balls have killed so many drives this season, it's not even funny.

    Wasn't one of our biggest offensive outputs against the Broncos? Are they a terrible D?
     
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  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    ...and 33 against the Patriots D that's held 5 teams to 14 or less and 3 to 9 or less?
    .... and 36 against Denver's tough D that's held 7 teams to 17 or less?

    Miami's 33 pts represents the 2nd most against NE.
    37 is San Diego's most allowed.
    36 is Denver's 2nd most.
    38 is Oakland's 3rd most.
    24 is GB's 4th most.

    Going by ranking, Lazor has had to face the #1 scoring D- Detroit, #4 twice- Buffalo, #5 KC, #6 Baltimore, #9 New England, #12 San Diego.... and Denver would be a top 7 D if all the meaningless garbage time scores didn't count against them. Football Outsiders has Denver's adjusted rank as #3....and the Jags don't have a pathetic D. There are some serious pass rushers and some serious front 4's/front 7's in this group to face with a suspect O-line.
     
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  30. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What, exactly do you "understand"?

    Lazor is pretty much the equivalent of a second or third generation adopter that has been granted a scheme and been exposed to good coaching, but he isn't the innovator or really even that close to it. He's Cam Cameron to Chip Kelly's Norv Turner. He's got some of the tools- He's got the read option, some of the screens, the orbit motions, etc., that are interesting and "new" to the NFL, but when those are normalized, so what? He doesn't show much in the way of evidence of all the counters, or tightly knit weekly gameplans that make the stuff he's picked up work. He's not suddenly going to go to a midline read unexpected if the option is getting crushed, or the like. It's basically the Wildcat all over again.

    Meanwhile, there are serious issues in the passing game. Lazor basically removed elements that worked very well for Tannehill and weapons on the offense for no apparent reason. He throws a handful of out-breaking routes as good as anyone in the league, but yet we're not doing comeback routes why?

    The guy very likely is fool's gold.
     
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  31. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is an interesting conversation that to me says far more about the future of the team than all this nonsense about Philbin.

    With Philbin you have to somehow account for player acquisition, for coaching hires, for game-plans, for the production of both sides of the ball, etc, etc etc.

    But with Lazor, we have a guy whose sole responsibility entails making the offense as good as it can be. When we assess Lazor, we're just asking "how well are we maximizing our talent?" That's really his sole job.

    While LL is right to defend Lazor's upside, I think you are right to ask the questions you are.

    Why can't Hartline and his route-tree be a bigger part of the offense, for example?

    The Tannehill-Hartline relationship was fantastic between 2012 and 2013.

    I always get a little worried when I hear people talk about how good an offense is and how wonderful it will be when it has the right guys.

    The reality is that while we need to improve in several key areas, no one will ever have the perfect roster.

    There's always a lot of gray area and an OC always has to compromise and make the best out of what he has.

    It certainly works both ways.

    Dez has consistently made the point that we aren't running enough and we aren't utilizing Lamar Miller enough in general.

    While Lazor has upside and potential, those things are true.
     
  32. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Yes, last year we were getting larger chunk plays, I even alluded to our worse downfield passing.

    I do not think Tannehill is failing to raise the play of those around him any more than last year, I mean once again I usually think he is the reason we're even in games as much as we are most times on offense. All the receivers you mentioning playing above what you would expect last year played to what I expect from them. They are not playing up to expectations this year, and I really only give a pass to Clay because he has been hurt, and Matthews because he should be used more. I think all the pass catchers except Landry has pretty much let Tannehill and the offense down over the season as a whole.

    I don't see the eye test validating your original contention of distribution either. You can see Tannehill passing to people all over the field, and hitting 7-8 players a game for a completion. Based on last year's eye test I'd come away from games thinking we only had 3-4 skill players (not necessarily skillful) on offense at all based on how passes were distributed.
     
  33. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I'm not so sure Gibson's or Hartline's play on the field has really dropped at all. They are getting fewer opportunities/targets, but I think that is mostly due to changes in the offense and the emergence of Landry. It is a quick pass offense that primarily works the middle of the field on short crossing patterns and slants. Much of the stuff to the sidelines are bubble screens. Wallace and Landry seem to be the preferred targets for the bubble screens and Landry is getting much of the short stuff in the middle. The progressions seem to go from short to long and Landry is often open on the short stuff, so it often hasn't mattered when the other guys are open further downfield. Hartline and Gibson are catching pretty much the same percent of their targets (Hartline is up a little and Gibson down a little). Also, we don't seem to do much of what Hartline is best at -- the sideline outs and comebacks. Either way, I guess you can say that Hartline and Gibsongn aren't really needed much, but I don't necessarily think it is their fault. I think they are about as open as they were last year and if we started targeting them more we'd see them producingngng at last year's level.
     
  34. speed

    speed Banned

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    Amen brother Sherman was TERRIBLE
     
  35. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    Lazor has a better toolbox than Sherman, he just doesn't use it, he defers to RT. Lazor is an absentee OC.

    We have a situation where HC defers to OC for play calling, which is OK, and then OC defers to QB for play calling, which is not OK.
     
  36. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That about sums it up.
     
  37. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Why does Lazor get a pass once Albert went down? Yet Sherman received no free pass when he had an even worse OL and a one year less experienced QB.

    We should all put things into perspective. Once Lazor had the same talent level Sherman had to work with, the offense looks eerily as inconsistent and inefficient. Hence why I'm saying let's hold off on the Lazor praise
     
  38. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I do believe that Tannehill has improved this year. How much of that is attributable to Lazor and how much to other factors (including just more experience, better pass protection, Landry, etc.) is debateable. It is a fair point, however, that at this time last year it looked like Tannehill was really turning the corner after the Pats game and then he wet the bed those final two games. His passer rating going into those last 2 games was 86.6 and now it is 92.6. That appears to be roughly consistent with what I've seen, and it is improvment, but it is not "night and day."
     
  39. Phins Up Wins Up

    Phins Up Wins Up Banned

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    They both need to go. Hartline is aging and isn't the same player anymore. Cost too much money for a guy that only has 2 TDs and 3 catches a game. Gibson is just playing bad and never was anything special to begin with. They need another receiver to go with Wallace and Landry.
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    :jt0323:
     

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