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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by KeyFin, Nov 17, 2013.
The Same Antonio Brown that has 74 for 952 and 5 TD's right now. Yep. Says it all.
All good questions.
Flip Side.....if they use him better, does he then join the others in being productive?
wow, great stuff man
im pretty sure the 50 million dollar contract they offered Wallace was not the same contract they gave to brown.
Antonio Brown is right around 20-30th in the league in most measures of efficiency. Nothing great.
There was no chance Mike Wallace was accepting an offer for that amount.
I agree with CK but I also want to add that while RT may have deep misses that on the face look poorly o him, the deep pass (>40 yds) is least accurate pass there is for the very reasons CK points out. But IMO that play is token play, not run enough for there to be any real results. If they committed to the deep ball the accuracy would improve or at s min there would be more completions. But because of protection issues we don't rein that type of play regularly
Huh? Antonio Brown has been amazing this year
@ArmandoSalguero: Sherman admits Tannehill "underthrew [Wallace] on a TD pass."
@flasportsbuzz: Mike Sherman said "we have to get" Wallace and Tannehill "on the same page" on deep balls and that will be a priority.
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I'm tired of the same page saying. It's ridiculous.
That will be a priority??? shouldn't it have always been a priority since they signed him to a 60m contract..... SMH
That's just because you're not on the same page.
No you have to run the play more than once a game, and commit to it. RT may not be the most accurate deep ball passer but he didn't miss wide open receivers like this last year even if he didn't hit them in stride. He at least got it to where receiver could catch it. But they ram deep patterns more often, deeper crossing routes. But since protection is even worse than last year, we call it much less.
Which has nothing to do with the two statements of yours that I quoted.
Maybe I'm setting the bar too low but I honestly didn't think Wallace would be that much better in our offense at this point.
Never really expected he and Tanny to hit their stride until the end of the first season at the earliest.
Sure it does. Why offer someone a contract you know they won't accept?
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Sherman doesn't want to admit that his play design was faulty.
Fast-forward to the 0:35 mark of the following video if you want to know what the Wallace play SHOULD have looked like:
On that play, Peyton Manning went from shotgun directly into his 3-step drop, and the drop timing did not call for a hitch step to be added on. It was SHOTGUN => 3-STEP => THROW. On the play from Tannehill it was SHOTGUN => PLAY-FAKE => 3-STEP => HITCH STEP => THROW.
Big difference. Tannehill couldn't get that ball physically out of his hands until more than 3.0 seconds had passed. Peyton Manning had the football out of his hands and on the way into Demaryius Thomas' hands in less than 2.0 seconds.
But if Mike Sherman had any clue that his play designs do not fit the players that are playing within them, then we wouldn't be having this problem in the first place...so I don't expect him to come out and say during his press conference that it was a bad play design.
Why offer him a contract if your not interested in resigning him?
Is that on the OC or the QB?
I'd say OC. what was it the Colts game that Wallace had a good game? they bunched him with other WRs to get him free and use crossing patterns to gewt him the ball in stride? haven't seen any play calling like that since. find ways to get those two working and let it develop.
Timing specifications like play-fake and hitch step are built into the play-call, to my knowledge.
Someone on twitter reminds me there was a play against the Browns that looked exactly like that as well, another play-fake delaying the timing and so Wallace is way down the field, ball underthrown.
I'm not going to pretend Mike Sherman has it easy here. On several other go routes run by Wallace, he's had trouble getting off the press and into the route. A quickly timed vertical can't happen if the player doesn't get open quickly. Part of the reason you delay the timing of the play at all is to allow Wallace the ability to get open. You know that these players can't run with Wallace so if you give him enough time then theoretically he should be able to get open. The catch 22 is the more time you give him the less chance the QB has of being able to get the ball to him.
It's not an easy thing to figure out how to make Mike Wallace work in an offense, givin his limitations, especially when he's giving you poor effort on the finish.
So, to put everything out on the table from the start, I'm a life-long Steeler fan. I've been creeping a bit on these forums over the past few weeks for the sole purpose of seeing how Mike Wallace has been doing since his move to the land of palm trees and sandy beaches.
In those few weeks, I've seen a couple themes creep up and, well, those themes are oh-so familiar.
So, if you all don't mind, I thought I'd give you a few points on Wallace from the perspective of a Steeler fan.
- The drops are not a new thing. They've been an issue since he came to Pittsburgh. Most fans were admittedly a little oblivious to them at first because he seemingly brought so much more excitement to the table that it didn't seem to matter. But over time, the drops have proven to be a glaring hole in his game.
- Wallace's 2011 season was extremely deceiving. A lot of people, even including some Steeler fans, keep going back to that season as proof that he's an elite WR. It simply does not hold water, however. If you were to take a closer look at that season, you'll see that he had an absolutely fantastic start to that season, to the tune of 730 yards and 5 TDs over 7 games. That's pretty impressive. If you take a look at the rest of the season, however, he starts to look awfully pedestrian. 489 yards and 3 TDs over 10 games. Many attribute Wallace's success to the Roethlisberger/Arians combination. Well, Arians was the OC for those final 10 games.
- To take that analysis even further, you'll find out that Wallace had a 16 game stretch that started at the end of the 2010 season and rolled over to the first 7 games of 2011 where he looked like he could have been an elite WR. Unfortunately, that streak turned out to be the exception rather than the rule. In fact, if you look at his career before and after that streak, he has been quite average. Now, to be fair, that streak ended as it did largely because teams adjusted for him by giving help over the top. However, if you go back and watch all of those 60+ games (as I had up until he moved on to Miami), you'll see a larger problem. The drops. The lack of focus. Lack of effort. The disinterest. It's all there. Yes, he was drawing more coverage at this point in his career, but also was doing a very poor job of taking advantage of the opportunities he was getting.
- Wallace made a comment in 2012 where he admitted that he loses focus when he's not getting enough looks. This caused many Steeler fans on the message board I frequent to go irate and blame the issue on Todd Haley (to be fair, Haley is an awful OC). That was short lived, however, as one astute fan noted that Wallace was actually getting MORE targets under Haley than he was under Arians. Wallace simply is not a good self-motivator.
- There's a popular concept when analyzing receivers known as "Catch Radius". Basically, how close does a QB need to get the ball to a receiver for him to reasonably have a chance to catch the ball. I saw a TV special once where they measured Calvin Johnson's catch radius. It was as wide as two garage doors. I'd imagine Wallace's would be very small. He is awful at catching things outside of his body, especially on deep balls. Some Steeler fans contend that Wallace did catch as many deep balls as he should have because Roethlisberger wasn't accurate enough. I think it's a heckuva lot easier to be accurate when you have a WR with a big catch radius. Wallace does not.
- Many think that Wallace's specialty is the deep ball. I wholeheartedly disagree. Yes, he's fast...maybe even the fastest. But he is downright awful at catching deep balls. He has virtually no chance at catching a pass that doesn't drop right into his bread basket. That makes it awfully hard to complete deep passes.
Instead, I think his biggest strength is actually running the slant with the defense spread wide. Some of this biggest plays as a Steeler were when we spread the defense out, ran a slot guy outside to get the OLB to drop back, and ran Wallace underneath with the slant. It's an easy ball for him to catch, he's able to catch it in on the run with a full head of steam, and if he can make a cut against the grain, he may very well outrun the entire defense to the end zone.
Anyways, just my 2 cents from the other side of the fence. Hope you find it informative.
Right, the question is whether what the defense shows pre-snap, and whether the QB can change the play call accordingly. Thats what I was getting at.
Well, either A) they didn't offer him what was reported or B) they did it for PR and lockerroom reasons.
Pardon my french but this is bull****.
He is averaging 9.66 yards per target at this moment.
Calvin Johnson is averaging 9.93
Antonio Brown is grading out as a top 10 WR this year. he has had a stellar year.
I'm not sure how relevant it is that the Steelers offered Wallace a contract.
Wallace was established in their system with their quarterback. They knew him, he knew them, they knew how to get the best out of him, etc. They decided he was worth what they paid Antonio Brown.
A) Just because he's worth that to THEM doesn't mean he's worth that to another team running an unfamiliar and perhaps incompatible system, with a QB that doesn't know him and whose skill set is not compatible with him, and
B) Doesn't mean they were right. Jeff Ireland thought Jonathan Martin and Cordy Glenn were the same player. That's not proof that Jonathan Martin is secretly awesome.
I see 952 yds on 106 targets for Brown, which equal 8.98 YPT. Brown is a good player, but def not a top-10 WR IMO.
I don't know the answer to that. I think it would be unusual for a QB to be given that kind of latitude, and even more unusual for him to exercise it. I wouldn't put it past a Peyton Manning though.
Not to nitpick but PFF has 101 targets. That could be the source of discrepancy. There are probably 5 throwaways that your stat source attributed to Brown because he was the closest in the area. For Brown it's not just 9.4 yards per attempt, it's also 2.26 yards per pass snap. Those are very good numbers. I don't know what is "top 10" anymore but he's up there with some of the best.
thank you and welcome to thePhins
if it where 8.98 it would still be very good to great.
I got different numbers. I did mistype. I got him at 9.61. not 9.66
This makes me think of that scene in Hard Knocks in 2012 where Jeff Ireland and Joe Philbin were discussing Clyde Gates. Philbin called him a neophyte as a route-runner, but Jeff Ireland said "He's got a dominant trait [speed], I'm not ready to give up on that." I think the Wallace signing could simply be Jeff Ireland getting excited at the prospect of having the fastest receiver in the league on his roster and thinking, "I have to have that" as he's always been focused on prototypes; cost and scheme fit be damned.
Wallace's speed is a skill that can't be taught. You just need to harness that natural talent to maximize its value
He's not an all-round WR. Timings are what Tannehill/Wallace combo need. Just not happening this season. No suprise to me our best receivers have been Gibson, Clay and lately..Matthews.
There are a lot of WRs with that type of speed, that wouldn't be considered very valuable.
Totally agree .Ireland tends to have tunnel vision when a player fits his ideal prototype.
I totally agree, and I said from the beginning that I didn't think Joe Philbin would be 100% on board with the move. Joe said the right things after the move was made, but you have to wonder if the speculated rift between the two started with this. The fact of the matter is, Joe is categorically against running plays just to get the ball to a certain player. He wants the coverage to dictate where the ball goes in his offensive scheme. I also said that Joe would rather have a strong route runner with deceptive speed than a speed demon who does not run good routes.
Even if that's true, the guy is here now. He has talents that can help you. Figure out how to get the most out of him. Your job is to win with the guys you have. Figure it out
This staff doesn't like to figure it out. They're rigid.