I'm sure you could figure it out. But to help you along: You said Eifert "was as dominant as a seam threat tight end could be. 11 career touchdowns". That indicated his 11 career TDs were evidence of his dominance. Ertz and Escobar were then even more dominant.
Hey if we're on touchdown stats my boy Joseph Fauria has 20 career TDs at UCLA. He's a nightmare to defend in the red zone. He had 12 TDs just this year alone.
I have some issues with calling Witten a first ballet hall of famer, as I do with giving so much credit to Rudolph, who was, up until this point, a bit of a bust. "Highly rated" is a bit of a self serving qualifier, because you're using it as a factor in why they should be highly rated. Aaron Hernandez though, I'm shocked he was low. That guy just made plays at Florida, although not in the red zone. Only time he saw heavy action in the redzone was when they ran those inside shovel passes. I think a few of us are debating different things, though. Some of us are looking for that red zone threat TD. It'd be fair if we broke down their TD numbers with regards to length. If a guy is scoring a ton of <10 yard TDs, and I'm looking for a red zone threat, that's probably the guy I want.
I realize the pendulum has swung downward on Joseph Fauria because people are starting to digest that he's not a good blocker and may never be. However, Jimmy Graham blocked a total of 496 times...in 2010, 2011 & 2012 combined. I don't think anyone is arguing that Graham isn't a valuable member of the Saints' offense. I think what Fauria gives you is the athleticism to run under deep corner routes, and to be a true seam threat over the middle. And he's just hell to deal with inside the 20 yard line. I think there's some over-thinking going on when it comes to Joseph Fauria.
Context. Not every offense is the same. Over the past 2 years, Eifert's TD production of 9 TDs comprises 26% of Notre Dame's receiving touchdowns. In the same span, Ertz's 10 TDs comprises 18% of Stanford's receiving touchdowns. Gavin Escobar has scored 30% of his team's receiving touchdowns over the past two years. He falls into the category of dominant based on his production as a receiver. Travis Kelce produced 32% of his team's receiving touchdowns this past year.
Fauria's TD production was 41% of UCLA's total receiving TDs this past year and 38% over the past 2 years. That may be the most dominant numbers in the draft at this position.
And Fauria would have been even more productive in 2011 if Rick Neuheisel wasn't such a goddamn dope as far as fitting all kinds of square pegs in round holes with his offensive style. He had Fauria running purely as an H-Back, coming across the formation to block and sometimes to leak out of the backfield on a route. He didn't have him on the line much threatening the seam and he didn't have him split out to the slot. I don't understand why everyone are so down on him. I'd take him in a heartbeat.
some talent traits just project better at the next level, have you looked at the first two plays against the best corner in college football in the championship game, those two plays happened with him split out on the perimeter..if you think he's stiff, I'm not sure what your seeing Roz, he's anything but stiff, watch him adjust and readjust his body in those two plays, he's exactly what this Qb needs..his size at almost 6'6 at 250 with so much potential to be 260, his ceiling is very high relative to his athletic ability.
I like this thread though, it's our tight end thread, and we need to get one.. Enjoy everyone's perspective on their dudes.. I really enjoy Eiferts natural movement skills, love the way he can shield a defender, hi point the sh&$ out of a ball, the 180 sideline tap dance is a thing a beauty on the back shoulder, not an easy move to make for a kid this size..I've watched everyone of his games the past two years, completely isolated..I think we should target him and Eddie Lacy in this draft if Sheldon and Jordan are off the board,
Key word being "MOST", I will grant you Tony G, Jason W, Vernon D and Clark… C Cooley was never dominant in the NFL, he was a good player but not dominant. I would add Owen D to the dominant list. I think you are right a about Aaron Hernandez being very good BUT Tamme? The guy has been in the NFL for 5 years and is averaging less than 300 per season and has 7 TD… at this pace it is going to take him another 3 season to score the same 11 he scored in college. Rudolph had a good 2nd year TD wise but also amassed less than 500 receiving yards.. not exactly what I would call dominant. Moeaki, 1009 yards and 4 TD in two seasons, color me not impressed. Cook 4 seasons in the NFL, avg'n 430 (or so yards) per season and amazing 2 TD's… again color me not impressed (BTW, this is the guy some people on the board want to spend FA money on?, really?). I would consider five (Daniels, Davis, Gonzalez, Witten and Clark) of the guys you listed as dominant and two (Hernandez, Cooley) as very good. I would put Greg Olsen just a notch below these guys (BTW, Fasano has similar numbers to Olsen over his past five years). So, that is less than 1/3 of your list in the dominant category… which means most of those guys are not dominant. I actually agree with your point that his lack of college production doesnt mean that he will not dominate in the NFL. You really dont have to throw a bunch of underachievers out there to try to make your point… cause frankly, you are better than that. Just saying
Eifert had some young qbs throwing the ball to him that didn't know how to capitolize on such a refined skillset.
Are you talking about the two play in which the DB who he out weighed by 60 pounds and is 5 inches taller than managed to knock the ball away from him? Cause IIRC the first two ball thrown to Eifert in the National title game here both incomplete.
Yup, those are the two plays I'm talkin about..it's all right there to see...he won't be matching up on the #1 corner on the next level...I loved those two plays.
So you believe the Escobar is a better player than Eifert? That Marcedes Lewis with 21 touchdown catches in college is better than Jason Witten with a third of that? A great seam threat doesn't mean a great touchdown machine. It means he's a great seam threat across the other 100 yards of the field.
So you didn't see the bit where Mroz put: 'not sure this really proves your point since most of those guys did / are not dominate in the NFL'. Therefore I listed a number of Hall of Famers, All Pros and Pro Bowlers to disprove his thought that most of these guys didn't/don't dominate in the NFL, which is patently not the case. At all.
Frankly, you know that Eifert is going to be facing much better athletes every game in the NFL. If he cant dominate a guy that is much smaller then him at the college level how is he going to do it against better players in the NFL?
Witten is walking into Canton at the first time of asking. An EIGHT time Pro Bowler, a SIX time All Pro, THREE times the NFL Tight end of the season, the NFL record holder for most catches in a game, the NFL record holder for most catches in a season, THIRD most receiving yards by a TE in NFL history, THIRD most receptions in a career by a TE in NFL history and he's only thirty and likely to retire number one in both categories and out of sight. Two time Walter Payton man of the year, never injured because he an iron man, something else he's won - 2009 NFL Iron Man. He's started 132 of 133 games in his career. Nailed. On. First. Ballot. And it's not even close. I genuinely don't understand where the debate is, my friend.
And I fail to see how a two year vet in Kyle Rudolph was considered a bust as a mid second rounder who made the Pro Bowl in his second year, 2012.
Highly rated doesn't mean dominant. But let's take Tamme for an example. There's a reason why Manning took him to Denver. Moeaki missed all of 2011 with injury and was slow to come back after a terrific rookie season. I we just value the position a little more differently. Ultimately you see a long list of Hall of Famers, Pro Bowlers and All Pros as well as exciting young players and it destroyed your argument about Eifert. Don't sweat it.
One that was thrown out of bounds and the second he clearly caught in bounds going up against the number one corner in the draft and the most physical corner in the draft? Is that what you mean?
Was a nice play against a top corner. Have to admit. They battled pretty hard against one another, was a give and take.
What? do you think I toss and turn at night because Boomer thinks I am wrong? AND how did you destroy my argument? was it when 1/3 of your list is dominant and are not?
Remind me again where I said that entire list was dominant? The list was made up of great, very good, good and young and good and important tight ends which took apart your argument that Eifert somehow can't be dominant with 11 career TD grabs when evidence and something I like to call facts show that touchdown catches in college byvtight ends are no indicator whatsoever to an NFL career.
FLMAO. OK Mroz, whatever. The second play is caught in bounds, both feet down, the ball moves on his way down but is secure well before he touches down. A notable and well talked about blown call.
If you mean referring to Ertz, then you also need to consider he was part of a deep TE corps and not the bell cow. So less chances because most of his career the #1 TE for the Cardinal was Fleener.
Not necessarily. You mentioned Eifert's career TDs as evidence of his being a seam threat. Well, if TDs are evidence, then it pertains to Ertz and Escobar too.
Ok, I get it now. I thought where he said "BUT I see your point that college production (or lack there of) is not indicative of what NFL production is going to be" was the main point of his post and what I was referring to.
Pipe down old timer......here's something on your boy from the 56th state http://www.ihigh.com/pantherfootball/article_157659.html
Thanks for that link young cottager. I swear Leonhardt is worth late consideration. Even more deserving though is Ryan Griffin the Tulane QB. It's a travesty he's not at the combine.
Don't confuse getting the maximum bang for buck for a non-aggressive philosophy. If I felt there were a first round tight end anywhere near as big a threat with their ball in their hands as Reed, but with more height, weight and blocking ability, I'd be the first one handing his name in for the pick. If you can walk away with several impact players at several positions, rather than one impact player and several behind him on the depth chart or several others that aren;t starters then that one player had better be superman because he'll need to impact the game so much on his own that you forget you could have had triple the number of nuts in your candy bar. Do you really believe that a combination of Eifert and some other second round guy would produce more results than, say, Johnthan Banks and Stedman Bailey, or Gavin Escobar? I don't.
