1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tua Tagovailoa out for Season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dolfan40, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

    10,416
    3,509
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I think Burrow is out of the question for us.. even if the Bengals dont end up with the top pick, Snyder may do what the Cardinals did to Rosen and go all in for Burrow..

    I think what this injury also says is that, trading up for a top 3 pick for a quarterback is no longer an option. If this front office, who were going hard for Jadaveon Clowney, feels like they have to trade up for Chase Young, then we might see that. But I get the feeling they stick with their three first round picks, you might see them move up the Texans pick attached with a late second to move 3-5 spots. Or trade the steelers pick with a few seconds to move up 2 spots to move up a bit..

    but as far as stacking multiple first rounders to take a quarterback.. or get in the top 3.. yea thats not happening anymore. And im glad we wont be doing that.. i want three first round rookie talents to report to OTA.
     
    Puka-head and KeyFin like this.
  2. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    8,370
    6,530
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Melbourne, FL
    I was never sold on Tua and all of the Tank for Tua hype but for the sake of conversation, even if I was, this is the precise reason your focus should be on building an all around good TEAM rather than depend on a particular player. The Colts are the PERFECT example of this common mistake.

    Let’s jump back in the Wayback Machine with Sherman and Mr Peabody...

    In 2011, the face of the Colts Peyton Manning is out for the season with a neck injury, leaving the Colts without their star quarterback for the first time since his drafting. Without a complete team, the Colts bomb the 2011 season going from hero to zero faster than Wilma Flintstone can cry charge it. This paved the way for the Suck for Luck campaign which the Colts won.

    Now it would seem that in this day and age of quarterback quarterback quarterback the Colts would repeat their same mistake as they had with Manning and it seemed they may have with Luck’s abrupt retirement this year however, the Colts had built an all around decent team that they’ve been competitive with Brissett at the helm. They may not be barnstorming the division but they are remaining competitive.

    The Dolphins need to build that all around good TEAM so regardless of who is under center we can remain competitive and hope that if the RIGHT quarterback is available in the draft that takes us to that next level, we can get him.

    If we put all of our eggs in one basket, God only knows what we’re going to do should that basket drop and they break
     
    Tin Indian and resnor like this.
  3. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    126
    141
    43
    Dec 31, 2018
    Costa Rica
    I saw a mock yesterday on Yahoo that made absolutely no sense at all. It was obviously done some time ago since it had Miami taking Tua with the second pick and the Bengals taking Chase Young at number one. Burrow was not taken until the mid 20s by Green Bay. No credibility whatsoever.
     
  4. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

    2,648
    1,251
    113
    Dec 2, 2007
    Well, all the mocks went out the window once Tua went down yesterday. That mock sounds like it was done before the college season started though.

    Watched some more videos about Tua and his probable injuries. It's not good. Easily a full year to recover and no way to know for sure if the bone will start dying over the next couple years due to blood flow issues. Given all the picks Miami has, you could take a chance with a third rounder, but Tua could easily hold out for the year and go into the 2021 draft instead. Why not? He could actually work out for teams and show that he has recovered (at least in the short term) in 2021.

    I have a feeling Herbert will get a long look and if he isn't taken with the Miami first rounder, then they grab a second day QB project like Hurts or Love. More solid plans can be made after the draft order gets set and seeing if there are any injuries to top players like Burrow during the college bowl games/playoffs.
     
  5. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,079
    2,930
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Well this just goes to show the story about Saban walking over a offensive lineman convulsing because of heatstroke (John Jerry ?) and then keeping an already recovering from injury Tua on the field after they were already up 35-7 shows that this leopard doesn’t change his spots.

    Whatever virtues Saban has as a coach he shows (again) that he is a miserable excuse for a human being. Just no regard for the welfare of the players who make him famous and generate his generous salary.
     
    KeyFin, The Guy and Puka-head like this.
  6. thetylernator

    thetylernator You're as cold as ice, Officer Friendly.

    492
    590
    93
    Dec 31, 2014
    Springfield, MO
    I don't think Tua is going to see much of a drop in his stock. We need to remember that he checks just about every box you want from a franchise quarterback: consistently accurate, mature, intelligent pre-snap, positive character, leadership attributes, etc. The most obvious concern about him is his proneness to injury--a perfectly valid concern--but at the end of the day, this won't be enough to knock him out of the first round. There are simply too many teams without a franchise quarterback, and too many checked boxes with Tua. However, I do think Burrow (and potentially Herbert) will go before him.

    Here's a scenario: Miami bottoms out and comes away with the first overall pick. Tua is expected to fall out of the top five, maybe further. The team decides against the other QB option, Joe Burrow, and opts for Chase Young atop the draft. A few more picks go by: Andrew Thomas to Washington, Burrow to Cincinnati, Jerry Jeudy to the Giants, and some bust to the Jets. Suddenly, Tua is outside the top-five and QB-starved teams are picking soon. Tampa Bay, Denver, Tennessee, etc. You have an opportunity to climb back into the top ten, leaping all of them, but it’s going to cost your last two first round picks—and then some.

    Do you do it?

    If you told me 6 months ago that Miami could come away with the two best CFB prospects in the world in Chase Young and Tua Tagovailoa, I'd for sure have called you a couple not-so-nice names.

    This injury may be a blessing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
    #1 fan and gilv13 like this.
  7. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

    2,648
    1,251
    113
    Dec 2, 2007

    It would be a minor miracle for Miami to climb back into the #1 draft spot, but sure let's run with that. Given your scenario, I'd grab Burrow at #1 and if the medical prognoses on Tua was good (no one will know for sure before the 2020 draft) I'd take him with our next first rounder.

    Yeah, BOTH the expected top QBs in the 2020 draft are coming to Miami. Burrow will have all of 2020 (or at least half the season as I'd start Fitzmagic for the first 4-8 games) to show what he has and then compete with Tua in 2021 for the starting spot. By 2022 we have things sorted out and trade one of them for a first and change.

    NOTHING matters more than getting the QB position right. We had Jason Taylor and and a great defense, but it wasn't enough to carry Fielder even when he had a running game too. Mack hasn't carried Da Bears to victory this season, Trubisky simply isn't good enough. As good as I think Young will be, he won't be enough to carry a franchise that lacks a good QB.
     
    Puka-head likes this.
  8. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    7,170
    8,231
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    We should use precisely ONE high round pick on QB. Too many other needs to pick two QB’s unless that 2nd pick is a mid/low rounder. If whoever we pick doesn’t pan out then you simply pick a QB again 2 years later. Keep trying and you’ll eventually succeed. Our mistake was not using a 1st or 2nd on a QB every few years until you get the guy you want. But you can’t just ignore the rest of the team and use 2 high rounders on a QB next year.. SB’s are won by teams strong in most areas and we’re talent starved almost everywhere!
     
  9. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

    2,648
    1,251
    113
    Dec 2, 2007
    We have the draft ammo of 2 drafts for 2020. Again, look at the Bears. By the time they find a QB (even IF they do in the next 3-4 yrs) the talented team they have is gone. Good players on rookie contracts can't all be paid, Mack is past his peak and the first rounders they gave up for him means less talent has been replaced in the draft.

    Find a QB first. Nothing else matters. Once you have that QB, THEN you build around him. Again, Miami can EASILY afford to spend the draft picks on two potential franchise QBs in 2020 and STILL draft for some other needs. Odds are decent you can flip one of the QBs for a pick down the road, so you get some of that cost back anyway.

    One more thing, having a legit QB makes getting free agents easier. Look at how often and easily the Pats sign good players for cheap just so they can be part of a winning team. If you don't have a QB, you'll be paying top dollar to free agents and that tells you they are more about the money than winning.
     
    AGuyNamedAlex likes this.
  10. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    7,170
    8,231
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    So if you think the marginal value of evaluating one more QB is always greater than drafting any other position (personally I think that’s WAY off mark) then why stop at drafting 2 QB’s? Why not use every pick on one so you can evaluate as many as possible? lol..

    A QB with little support is going to have a much higher probability of failing than if you support him. There’s value to building up the rest of the team to help that QB succeed. So as far as I’m concerned, while I totally agree on the value of the QB relative to any other position, it’s detrimental to the development of that QB to ignore everything else while you’re trying to “find that QB”. You want to address as many weaknesses as possible in the draft prioritizing the most important positions (assuming the talent available is acceptable). So I’d take ONE QB in the draft with our first pick and that’s it. If he fails you try again until you succeed.
     
  11. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

    2,648
    1,251
    113
    Dec 2, 2007
    You don't really have the time or practice reps to evaluate more then two QBs in a season, so don't draft more than that. You could even argue with Rosen around that Miami should only add one more QB -even with all the extra picks we have in 2020.

    If Miami found itself with the #1 pick though, getting both Burrow and Tua would be a good gamble. Burrow would get the training camp reps and preseason games, while Tua would be focused on rehab for the year. If Burrows looks good, you hold a workout for Tua in 2021 and take offers from QB needy teams. If you have doubts about Burrow, you let both compete in 2021 to be the starter. BTW, I'm trading Rosen in this scenario once I have both rookie QBs for a second draft day pick.

    With the cap space and a draft pick Miami can rebuild the OL. Work a trade for Trent Williams and even at 32 he should be good to play for 3 years (having had a year away to get healthy and also less wear and tear). Get a RT in free agency like Conklin, who we can pay $10 million/yr with all the cap space. He is young enough to be around for at least 5-6 yrs. I'd like a Center too, maybe Trey Hopkins who seems good but not great but would be only be 28 yrs old. Put the best of the present OL at the Guard spots.

    So, we should have a fair-good OL and some depth too. Spend the rest of our cap and draft picks on DE, CB, HB, and Safety. I'd be fine rolling with the WR corp we have now, except Hurns is worth cutting in favor of another late draft/undrafted project WR.

    We'd be putting Burrows out on the field with some weapons and an OL capable of protecting him. If he falters, we see what Tua can do in 2021. The 2021 draft can focus on getting more defensive help and maybe a project LT who can sit and learn and then be a backup till Trent is gone or starts slipping.

    Since I doubt we get the #1 pick, you could sub in Herbert for Burrow and still grab Tua. Or if we have pick #2 we grab Young and then Tua, letting Rosen have a year to play behind a real OL. Rosen then is an experienced backup QB, trade bait in 2022, or shines and we trade Tua in 2022.

    Really it's crazy how many options the Dolphins will have going into the 2020 season.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
    Puka-head likes this.
  12. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,139
    7,961
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Not only that...but have you guys actually watched Burrow play? His poise and confidence is absolutely off the charts, plus he has all the other intangibles you look for in a franchise QB. Anyone can end up a bust, but Burrow is one of the most NFL-ready passers I've seen in quite some time. I said a month ago that I'd take him over Tua because I believe he's simply the better QB.
     
    BrazForPhins, M1NDCRlME and resnor like this.
  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,139
    7,961
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    No no no no no! Enough with grabbing other teams baggage and hoping we can polish it into something tangible. We need to draft our linemen and build those units from the ground up.

    Besides QB, it should be the 2nd highest priority for this organization. We need a RB, a corner, possibly one receiver and one or two linebackers. Heck, throw another safety in the mix as well. None of those are a bigger priority than our offensive line or the defensive line, and none of those spots will have more of an instant impact on our ability to win. I could see taking one RB/corner in the 1st if there's someone elite that slid but otherwise, the focus needs to be on the trenches on both sides of the ball.

    We were told that we're throwing away this season to build a dynasty...that dynasty comes thru the trenches on every snap. Free agency is not the answer for the vast majority of those positions.
     
    M1NDCRlME and Hooligan like this.
  14. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    1,340
    1,135
    113
    Sep 12, 2015

    You are creating a false scenario where by drafting a QB it somehow prohibits us from building the rest of the team.

    You're also creating the false impression those if us who want a QB think its somehow an immediate Superbowl for us.
     
    texanphinatic likes this.
  15. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

    2,648
    1,251
    113
    Dec 2, 2007
    What? With the exception of Trent Williams, we'd have PROVEN players for at least the next 5-6 years. Giving Miami plenty of time to draft and develop their replacements as those free agents get older. The cost would be substantial, we'd need 100+ million in cap space to.... oh, yeah. Miami would be trading high cost for more of a sure thing compared to hoping draft picks turn out. We can fix one side of the ball by throwing money at it this coming off season, then draft as needed to maintain a solid OL.

    The best benefit would be to protect and help a young QB develop without having to run for his life or get ruined by playing behind a poor OL.


    Get a QB, protect the QB. I'm totally fine with the defense being built mostly through the draft, I just want to jump start the offensive rebuild with carefully selected free agents, then replace parts as needed. This team rebuild CANNOT be done just through drafting, unless we want to risk the QB and add 1-2 years to the whole rebuild process.
     
    Puka-head likes this.
  16. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,769
    7,280
    113
    Apr 22, 2014




     
    KeyFin likes this.
  17. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    8,370
    6,530
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Melbourne, FL
    No, I don't create that immediate success false scenario. You do a good job of that on your own.
     
  18. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

    1,340
    1,135
    113
    Sep 12, 2015
    Point out when I did that and then we can talk.

    If you dont understand the difference in value between pieces on the field I find your chess analogy in the other thread pretty funny.

    Wanting to have your Queen on the board (a good QB) doesnt mean you think you will win with just a Queen. It also doesnt mean you neglect your other pieces. It just means you know your chances of winning improve if you can keep that Queen on the board.
     
  19. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

    695
    362
    63
    Aug 12, 2011
    Take Tua with the first pick so no one else has a chance. Draft and FA fill the OLine. I mean pack it full, I want 25-30 guys competing for those OLine positions.
     
  20. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

    6,806
    2,548
    113
    Feb 10, 2010
    Palm Bay Florida
    Yeah, I don't have much interest in a QB with durability concerns, Sam Bradford anyone?. Given that Burrow is likely to be gone before we pick if we do go QB that high I think I'm looking more at Jake Fromm. I want nothing to do with Herbert in anyway shape or form.

    If we wait to grab a QB later I'm all in on Jalen Hurts. Put him on the bench for a year behind Fitzpatrick and coach him up.
     
    KeyFin and jdallen1222 like this.
  21. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

    695
    362
    63
    Aug 12, 2011
    Hurts? muahahhhhaah. ok, some people are risk averse, I'd say taking Hurts is more of a risk than taking Tua.
     
  22. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

    6,806
    2,548
    113
    Feb 10, 2010
    Palm Bay Florida
    His passing has improved dramatically and he is the most dynamic QB in the draft. All the best QB's in the league right now are dual threat types and Hurts is the only one that fits that bill. He still needs some development and frankly whoever we pick I don't want to see starting a game till his second season anyway. Why not go with a guy that fits the modern mold?
     
    Puka-head likes this.
  23. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,769
    7,280
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    Aaron Rodgers begs to differ.


    ...There is no mold. There's just a spectrum of talent with different skill sets.
     
  24. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

    6,806
    2,548
    113
    Feb 10, 2010
    Palm Bay Florida
    To be completely honest, given the background that most of the staff has, ie significant Patriots connection, I doubt Hurts is the kind of guy they are looking for. I think Fromm is more along their path of thinking and of course Burrows. May have been this thread but someone said they are looking for a QB that can run a little, I'm not buying that.

    2 cents.
     
  25. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

    695
    362
    63
    Aug 12, 2011
    Just pick Tua and develop him.
     
  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    6,139
    7,961
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I completely agree- Hurts would make an excellent project QB to groom for a couple of seasons. Maybe he's never our QB1 full time, but a player like that can be lethal in the wildcat as he develops. And if he gets to that Lamar Jackson level then it's even a bigger win for the team since he'll likely go in the 2nd or 3rd round.
     
  27. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

    10,416
    3,509
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Jalen is going to be a first rounder. Just wait till he blows people away in the combine, pro day and interviews.
     
    Tin Indian and resnor like this.
  28. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    7,170
    8,231
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    I'm totally against Hurts. Where's the evidence he can be a good pocket passer? In the NFL teams will shut down those running lanes and force you to beat them by reading the field and picking apart defenses as a passer. I see no evidence he can do that. Hard pass IMO.

    Burrow or Tua I'm fine with, not Hurts.
     
  29. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

    10,416
    3,509
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Yea theyre sure shutting down Mahomes, Watson, Dak, Wilson and Jackson. I just named 5 quarterbacks that are arguably the top 5 in the NFL right now. Neither of them are your typical pocket passers. Hell even guys like Aaron Rodgers are moving the pocket and taking the running lanes.

    You all got to accept that the quarterback position has gone through an evolution. The Drew Brees/Brady/Peyton Manning types is dying, and harder to come by.
     
    resnor and Tin Indian like this.
  30. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    7,170
    8,231
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    And.. you didn't address anything I said. Never talked about "typical pocket passers".

    They can't shut those QB's down because they're good pocket passers even if they move the pocket – they're all capable of reading the field and picking apart a defense that decides to shut down QB running lanes. I don't see the evidence Hurts can do that. Wildcat QB maybe.. a good passer that has great running ability? Don't see it.

    This I agree with, but all the QB's of this new era that are succeeding are good passers in addition to being able to run well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
    Mexphin and Fin D like this.
  31. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

    6,806
    2,548
    113
    Feb 10, 2010
    Palm Bay Florida
    Just somethings to consider.

    Tua 180 for 252, 71.4 completion percentage, 2840 yards, 11.3 avg, 33 td, 3 ints

    Jalen 181 for 248, 73.0 completion percentage, 3039 yards, 12.3 avg, 28 td, 5 ints.

    Very comparable numbers between the two. And yeah there is more to it than just numbers, I get it. But with Hurts you also get

    983 yards on 152 carries And 15 rushing TD's.
    To Tua's
    17 yards on 23 carries And 2 rushing TD's.

    You can't dismiss Hurts that easily. His passing numbers this year have been a tremendous improvement and have actually trended up the last two years. On paper, his passing numbers are close enough to call it a wash and then you get another 1000 yards of production on the ground AND 13 more rushing TD's as well. You can't say Alabama has faced tougher competition this year because they haven't. It's one of the big knocks on them in the polls.

    All I'm saying is you have to give this guy a look if you haven't this year. Not the same guy he was two years ago and there is still room for him to improve at the next level. I like him alot more than Herbert who I'm convinced is another Thill type and WAY more than a guy like Love that is way up and down all the time.
     
    M1NDCRlME, Dolphin Dundee and resnor like this.
  32. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

    11,769
    7,280
    113
    Apr 22, 2014



    From 1:30 onwards...
     

Share This Page