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Tua or or wait for Lawrence?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Clemson play T A&M tonight and Alabama are up against lowly NM State.

    Both Tua and Lawrence are out their throwing dimes.

    If this holds out the rest of the season you have to wonder if it matters much which one we get - as long as we get one...

    Then again, the TL fan club has a strong following...

    More in the 2019 College QB Thread - https://thephins.com/threads/2019-qbs-thread.94421/#post-3194648
     
  2. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Tua is not the answer. Bama has had a lot of good qbs that have won championships but none of them were NFL type qb's. Trevor Lawrence is the real deal. If we could get him, that would be the way to go
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
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  3. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There's like zero chance of them being willing to do this two straight years, for a litany of reasons. It's bad for the bottom line, you're wasting players you've got, time, money, etc. Christian Wilkins might be 3/4ths of his way through his rookie deal before you're ready to start competing, etc. and so on.

    It's go time next year, regardless.
     
  4. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Can you explain why Tua isn't legitimate?
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here’s the thing, imo let’s measure what we see from Rosen against the likes of Love, Fromm, and Herbert coming out.. if he’s ahead of those guys come after the season and we can’t get Tua then you ride with Rosen.
     
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  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    it sounds to me like an illogical stance, which is, because past players haven’t made it, it automatically means a different human being will fail as well, why??? Because the past human beings failed so..that’s why
     
  7. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    Who's the last Alabama Qb that was decent or ok in the NFL? How many years ago?
     
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  8. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Completely meaningless.
     
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  9. thetylernator

    thetylernator You're as cold as ice, Officer Friendly.

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    Just tossing my two-cents in the hat:

    1. It's unfair to judge a player by the college they come from. Instead, judge a player by the totality of who they are. Their character, intangibles, work ethic, commitment, leadership, talent--these things are far more telling than some historical precedent set by previous failures of the same alma mater.

    2. Tua checks a lot of boxes for a lot of people, particularly in the off-field and character columns. He's an ideal "face of the franchise" and may very well represent what Flores and Grier want in the Miami Dolphins moving forward.

    3. If Tua continues to play like the No. 1 overall pick, he will almost certainly declare. Familial influences/educational beliefs aside, it is simply irrational to throw away first overall value to continue your education. From potential injuries to a decline in play, there are a wealth of reasons not to return to school in that situation. Tua isn't an idiot, and he knows as well as anyone that degrees can come later--first overall value may not come again.

    4. It's unrealistic to tank for two-straight years, and according to Travis, that's not the plan internally. This is a 2-3 year rebuild, and 2019 is expected to be the worst of it. Miami is looking at 2020 as an opportunity to lay the foundation for the future through their numerous draft picks and $120+ million in cap space. They expect to compete in 2020 while hammering out minor/medium-sized issues, and then to use 2021 to round out the edges of the system and to propel themselves into relevency. They're doing this thing the right way, but the clock still ticks. They will find a QB to love in 2020, Tua or not. They have to, because they don't expect to have a shot at one in 2021.

    5. Please, stop sleeping on Jake Eason.
     
  10. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Just my opinion. I'm a huge college football fan and can usually tell when a guy is just a good college QB but not a going to be a good pro qb. Everyone of Bamas qb's for the past 20 years have been great college qb's and that's it. Sabans system makes his qb's look great. If we were to pick a QB next year, I'd want Justin Herbert from Oregon. If we wait till the following year, Trevor Lawrence without question
     
  11. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Kenny Stabler?
     
  12. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Butterfingers.
     
  13. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    I'm not the one making the decisions so you are right, my opinion is completely meaningless.
     
  14. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    None of them have been on Tua's level. Saban was a D and Run guy, not propping up QBs. But he was smart enough to see college evolve - you can't win without QBs now - and he went and got Tua to try and stay up on programs like Clemson and Oklahoma.

    The consensus is that Tua is a completely different QB than Saban has had before.
     
  15. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Season Ticket Holder

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    I'd stay in school if I were Tua
     
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  16. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's not really. Their program is so good, that they have talent at every position. So it's not the QB elevating the play of those around him because he's so good. It's the fact that they're just better than everyone they play. That doesn't mean he's great, it means he's on a great team, in a good system that allows him to shine. Think AJ Macarron, or any other QB they've had there recently. Where have they gone? Then look at the guys who've been QB's at crap programs that have had successful careers. Flacco, Ben, Brady (not a crap program, but he wasn't "elite" at Michigan), Mahommes, etc. etc.

    Tua isn't an easy evaluation to me. Everyone on that team is so good. Put him on this Dolphins team now, or even next year with a few more draft picks that may, or may not be good. Do you seriously think he's the player thats going to elevate guys on this team? That's a hell of an evaluation to make.

    Minkah was supposed to be great too... different position, sure, but what major impact has he had at this point?

    You have to be 100% sold that he's the guy, not just a product of his environment. That's my fear with Tua... like many other Alabama players, he's a product of his environment, more than being the premier product himself.
     
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  17. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    LOL.. Jets and Bills will soon be in the market for a QB too. Said before the season that both Allen and Darnold are either likely to be busts or at best end up average. Both of them proving it today.

    Gase lost! YES!!!!
     
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  18. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    I cant argue with you, cause like I said, it's just my opinion. I will say that if Tua and Lawrence were both available next year, id take Lawrence. But he's only a sophomore so he has to stay for one more year. I'd still take Herbert from Oregon over Tua. What's sad is we already have to talk about next year's draft and it's only week one
     
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  19. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    See my answer above - Tua was never meant to be a traditional Saban game manager QB. He was taken by Saban to be an answer to other teams increasing their firepower with these spread attacks and running QBs.

    The past QBs he brought into the program were not on the same level as Tua even coming into the program, let alone gameplay. He is not the same ol same ol Nick Saban QB. The question is meaningless. If you don't like the guy, that's ok. But the "Nick Saban doesn't make QBs" is a lazy and meaningless argument.
     
  20. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!
     
  21. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I mean this, with the most respect possible. People keep saying this. And it’s absolutely dumb to even think about. So the best QB prospect since maybe Luck, maybe better, in Lawrence is sitting there for the worst team in the NFL, and they are willing to trade the pick to us?! Lmao. Literally 0 chance.
     
  22. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    You obviously aren’t that big of a college football fan then lol. None of what you said is true. Sabans system makes QBs look great? Haha

    Can you name the last great QB Alabama has had? Please name them
     
  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Only losers stay in school
     
  24. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Every qb Bama has had in the past 15 years or so has been very good/great college qb's. By his system, I meant the way he runs the team and the other players he has/had. The last great one was Jalen Hurts. He still is a great college QB. He transferred to Oh though. He will not be a good NFL qb either. Btw, I'm a huge college football fan. Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do.
     
  25. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

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    But that's not the argument. The argument is "Alabama has superior talent at every position, therefore the QB will look like a god even if he's just OK." Since Miami doesn't have superior talent, the fact that Tua looks great against relative scrubs doesn't give much reason to suppose he'll do well here.
     
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  26. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Either not a huge college football fan or oblivious. Bama has one one great thrower of the football since Saban has been there, Tua. Period. They’ve had game managers that were in run first offenses and didn’t make mistakes. Those aren’t great college QBs. Hurts was not a great college QB. That’s why he lost his job in the national championship to a true freshmen. Because he wasn’t a very good thrower. You’re extremely off base here.
     
  27. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    I think he only lost 2 games in 3 years. Here are some awards. He's a very good to great college QB, which means nothing in the NFL, which is the point in trying to make.
     

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  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Clemson has talent at every position, therefore Lawrence is garbage. Mayfield and Murray had talent at every position. It's a non argument.
     
  29. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Lmao. So not a big college fan. Just a ESPN highlight watcher. All good.
     
  30. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

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    If this team doesn't show any kind of improvement at all, that could be a very real possibility. If I were him I would seriously have to think about it.

    I think we had better start looking at senior QB's.
     
  31. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    If i'm picking a player, it's Tua because I think he'll be a star at the NFL level right away. He will change the fortunes of whatever teams drafts him and I hope it's us.
     
  32. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Dude F off. You said he's not a great college QB. I proved you wrong. And like others have said, the Bama QBs are good because of the supporting cast. None of them have gone on to become NFL qb's and in my opinion, neither will Tua. You obviously know even less about college football than you do about pro football, which obviously isn't much. You strike me as more of A WNBA guy. You should stick with that
     
  33. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Bama has never had a QB with Tua's talent or potential. Claiming the supporting cast is the only thing making him good is nonsense and could be applied to most QBs - or literally any prospect coming from perennial top 10 schools.
     
  34. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    Lol no one said this, ok.
     
  35. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    It's literally the argument being put forth against Tua. People are discounting him because Alabama has talent. Again, so does Lawrence, so did Mayfield and Murray.
     
  36. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Again, im just going by the past qb's at Bama. They were all very good college qb's but never made it in the NFL. Jalen Hurts was very good too before Tua got there and he won't make in the NFL either. I don't see how Tua is any different. In my opinion, Bama makes him, he doesnt make Bama. I guess we'll see next year
     
  37. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Its not lazy, or meaningless actually. It's pretty damn factual when you look at his track record. You think this one guy is the exception to the norm from a Saban program? Ok... sure. great. He's a spread offense kind of guy in the modern mold of the college QB. How many of those has Saban produced as great? I'll wait for that answer, but not very long because I already know the answer. It's none. What Saban coached QB has been successful at any level outside of his college program? Again. None.

    I get it, the past isn't the future or present. Things can change, but until I see that change, I'm very much on the fence. I'm not saying he's going to suck or anything like that, but just pointing out there's plenty to be concerned about. People can clamour about him being the best prospect since Luck... I'd still take Luck all day long over Tua. That's not even a question. I'd take Murray all day long over Tua. Mahommes too. There's others in this potential class I'd still look at over him. simply because they look just as good, without the similar surrounding class of talent. That's a big deal IMO.

    At this point, I'd draft two damn QB's if we can. I dont trust this current group to make the right choice.
     
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  38. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    The evidence is anecdotal. As fans we have the luxury of having uninformed opinions. I don't think anyone here claims to be a scout so take it with a grain of salt.
     
  39. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Most Bama QBs were not good college QBs, and also were never considered realistic prospects. Tua is both a good college QB and an NFL prospect. If you are going to say Bama makes him, then you would need to say Clemson makes Lawrence too. It's a nonsensical argument.

    I also wouldn't count out Hurts under Lincoln Riley. Nobody really considered Mayfield a premium prospect until his magical year either. Additionally, Hurts was also considered a revolutionary QB for Saban to target, and he wasn't as highly regarded or versatile as Tua.

    I know I am not. I just don't like blanket nonsense like "Tua isn't good because Alabama is a good team". There are lots of good teams, comprised of good players. That's why they are good. It's a lazy argument.
     
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  40. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    Maybe they argue better in the club section? This is what you're gonna get here.
     
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