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Tua keep or not Tua keep...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by The_Dark_Knight, Jan 5, 2021.

  1. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    That's fair, but I was referencing today's NFL which I define post 2005. That's when the rule enforcement governing how DBs can interact with WRs went into affect which completely changed the game and the QB position in my opinion.

    Also I'd argue Peyton Manning showed huge potential right off the bat despite the interception plagued first season.
     
  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    So, for all of the pro Tua people; what is it that you all saw this season that makes you think that Tua has any potential to be a special NFL QB? Was it just the Arizona game?
     
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  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Personally, I'm not worried about Tua yet. He has some growing to do and I would definitely bring in some competition to keep him honest, but that competition should be anywhere from a late first to a 2nd or 3rd rounder (depending on who we really like and the run on QB's). Meanwhile, I'm doing everything I can to get Fitz back in the building. I expect him to retire but I do know that he really loves this football team, so we'll see.

    For those that don't know, Fitz has like 11 kids and he's an amazing dad...his wife really wanted him to retire 3 seasons ago. So there's definitely a big pull to hang up the cleats.
     
  4. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    If Fitz retires his final pass in his career will have been the one to Mack Hollins in Vegas where he got his helmet twisted backwards - not a bad way to go out.
     
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  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, I'd still argue that it's the most incredible NFL pass of all-time. I mean, how do you top that throw? I don't think it's possible.
     
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  6. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Pocket presence, quick release, accuracy, team first mentality, mechanics... He still has ways to go but I did see things that I like. I think his biggest thing is, he's playing not to lose and his arm is not the strongest but I'm not down on him yet and I think he will get there if he stays healthy which is actually his biggest flaw if you want...
     
  7. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Drew Brees did not start out bad. He showed a lot of promise in his rookie year. That didn't translate to wins, but the talent was there. Peyton Manning did throw too many INTs in his rookie season, but he also threw for almost 3800 yards. Everyone could see the talent there. I can't think of any star QB who started out their first season not showing arm strength who later developed arm strength.
     
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  8. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    And that's why the Chargers drafted his replacement after his 2nd season.

    It would be foolish to move on from Tua after just 9 games. He was nowhere near Josh Rosen bad.
     
  9. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Not many had hip surgery before getting drafted, arm strength is may be the most important thing for throwing a ball but you need other things too. I really think he will look different next season after a whole Trainingcamp and a Offseason, where he can train instead of having rehab (he is never going to be a Mahomes, Allen or Luck). If not, we probably need someone new, that's why I would trade out of Nr. 3 and get more ammunition for next years draft if we need to go QB then.
     
  10. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    He got replaced because he injured his throwing shoulder.
     
  11. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    No, they drafted Rivers before he injured his shoulder. Brees was already on his way out the door before the season started. Too bad because his 3rd year the light was coming on for him and his play improved. When he injured his shoulder it made the Chargers decision easy.
     
  12. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. Other than maybe a team first mentality, I didn't see any of those things you mentioned. Pocket presence? ...ok.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
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  13. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Right, how could I forget all the sacks, inteceptions and let's not talk about his robotic movements... Sure, if some of you wanna hate you'll find something, but if he was the piece of Jesusboy trash some of you make him out to be, then Flores would have never benched Fitz and I don't know about you or some of the other guys here but I for myself have some kind of faith in this regime, quite nice for a change.
     
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  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I would say the amount of quarterbacks that started out good. There aren't many successful quarterbacks.

    I disagree with your statement of today's NFL.
     
  15. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    If you're being technical about "rookie" season, then Mahomes is an example, even though he played only one game his rookie season. Same with Rodgers, who didn't technically "start" his rookie year, but he had 16 passing attempts his rookie season and 15 passing attempts in season 2 and was absolutely atrocious (could hardly complete any passes!).

    Among those that started a lot of games their rookie season, right now it's looking like Josh Allen is an example. He was 2nd worst among all starting QB's his rookie year. And what do you think of Lamar Jackson? Maybe not an "elite" QB but if you include his threat to run he's pretty good. His rookie season wasn't that good.

    So even since 2005 you have a decent number of examples.
     
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  16. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Lamar Jackson ran for a LOT of yards his rookie season. Like a record-breaking number. He's still not a good passer, and I don't think he's much of a QB, more just a very athletic player they've put at QB. Josh Allen also had over 600 yards rushing his rookie season and tossed the ball quite a bit, he just had to work on accuracy. In other words, though they both had problems passing, they showed promise because they ran well even in their rookie season.
     
  17. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I think you're making excuses with Allen. There was hardly any person who looked at him his rookie season and thought he would end up even average. And "just had to work on accuracy" is not the right way to put it. Few can correct that. Jackson ran a ton of course, but his passing made it hard to predict whether he would end up a successful NFL QB. Point is, there are examples since 2005 of QB's playing bad initially and ending up well.
     
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  18. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    I don't think Lamar Jackson is an apt comparison though, because he's STILL not a good passer. His legs open up a lot of wide-open throws and no other QB in the NFL can run the way he can. And yes, Allen was inaccurate as a rookie. But the problem I have with Tua isn't his inaccuracy, it's his unwillingness to throw it downfield. Allen threw it downfield all the time and they finally got him some WRs who can catch it. Everyone wants to get Tua WRs, but if he doesn't throw it downfield, what good are they?
     
  19. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Allen often overthrew WR's in ways that no WR could ever catch the ball. It was really bad.

    Regarding Tua, ask yourself why he doesn't push it downfield. First, he can't see "NFL open" yet. I would think an offseason of work and study could change that. Second, his WR's many times were not even "NFL open". Third, we had a bad OC. Tua already showed he can throw the ball downfield, so why assume that he can't? That's why you give him at least one full offseason with better weapons to see if he can correct the mistakes that made him below average this year (albeit average statistically for all rookie seasons with 150+ attempts since 1978).

    Can't just assume Tua can't correct his issues when other QB's have done so.
     
  20. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Lamar needs to spend some time in the offseason with the crew that helped Allen out. His 1st 2 seasons Allen had a hard time hitting a barn. Kudos to him he spent the time fixing what he needed to and is really spinning it now.

    I agree, Tua's lack of throws downfield is the only thing I can really fault him on. I just don't know if that's because of Gailey or not trusting his receivers (Fitz did alright with them) or just lack of confidence making the throw. He was a good deep ball passer in college in fact that's why he got the job over Hurts because Hurts started throwing everything short or running (he would do well to remember that). It was also suggested in here that perhaps his hip wasn't healed enough and was sapping his strength. What ever it is He needs to get over it.
     
  21. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Alex Smith (2005), Joe Flacco (2008), Matthew Stafford (2009), Andrew Luck (2012), Ryan Tannehill (2012), Jared Goff (2016), Carson Wentz(2016) - I have to go to a meeting so I ended with 2016, but since 2005 (the year you stated in a later post) these successful QBs all were taken in first round AND struggled in their rookie years, yes, even Luck struggled some throwing 18 INTs and a comp rate of only 54%.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
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  22. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, exactly. How could you?
    Sorry to get nitpicky.
     
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  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That wasn't Tua- that was Gailey giving him simple, one-man reads. Combine that with a rookie line and average receivers, and it makes sense why Gailey kept it simple.
     
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  24. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I'm definitely concerned about Tua and disappointed he didn't show the way Burrow and Herbert did. However, I wouldn't agitate to replace him, and the idea of using the #3 for "competition" is absurd.

    IF Greir and Flores absolutely adore someone like Zack Wilson from BYU, I wouldn't be mad if we took him, but I don't see any way to do that and not immediately (or prior) trade Tua.

    You CANNOT wait for them to battle and then expect to trade the loser for anything but a late round flyer.

    Instead, spend resources to get actual talent here. Buy both a RB and WR in free agency and draft explosive ones of each in rounds 1-2. Pair Allen Robinson with Rashod Bateman and Aaron Jones with Najee Harris and watch that offense. You could even do that and still get Sewell. Put him next to Austin Jackson and let him destroy people for Aaron Jones to run behind.
     
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  25. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with this, brah. These things weren't a problem when Fitzy was playing. Gailey is becoming the fall guy, the patsy. Not just by you, but I think all of the recent blame put on Gailey is unfounded and kind of sad.
     
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  26. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I feel like Fitz came in and mostly did what he wanted to do - the playcalling under Tua seemed very different as to what was called (or, rather, executed) when Fitz was in.

    Certainly Gailey's playcalling wasn't the ONLY issue, but I don't think he did us any favors.
     
  27. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And I would say that Goff & Wentz are still struggling (and have signed mega deals) AND cost a boat load of picks for their respective teams, so both teams are in a hole with them now. Goff makes Tua look like Lamar Jackson in terms of movement
     
  28. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I replied specifically to the comment "Tua never threw deep."

    First, he did throw deep each game and the pass was dropped every time in the final weeks. But second, Gailey was calling a much more conservative game for Tua....which has been said many times in press conferences by Fitz, Tua, Flores and Gailey himself.

    For that specific criticism, that really isn't my opinion...it was a fact. And that's not a knock on Gailey at all since Tua was holding the ball too long. Conservative was the right approach.
     
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  29. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Great Hoppin' Horney Toads.........
    The young'un was a young'un coming in with a bunch of young'uns on the O Line.
    We're lucky he showed up as well as he did, and that offers some promise for the next few years as these young'uns grow up together.
    Most times that grouping would be picking up their pride and their butts at the same time.
    Bring some more in!!!!!
    Hope the BOSS leaves me around to watch a few more seasons!
     
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  30. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Of course they played more conservative with him. They had to.They gave him more hot routes, etc, but that wasn't solely Gailey's decision. It was a staff decision, starting from the top. They made that decision based on what they saw in camp, his injury history, etc, etc. He also hadn't really showed that he can accurately and consistently go deep or they would have let him. It's a two way street there. My problem was that people are trying to blame Tua's problems and ineffectiveness on Gailey and I think that is wrong and scapegoating, etc.
     
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  31. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    One thing that proves nothing but bears consideration is the synergy between Fitz and Gailey versus Tua coming in fresh.

    I posted the quote in an earlier thread on Gailey but one thing Gailey said about Fitz was that he was always impressed how much he brought to the table, how he contributed to plays and play calling, modifying plays etc. So the picture seems to be:

    Fitz has years of prior experience with Gailey and his offence.
    Fitz has years of experience in multiple teams and offences.
    Fitz was apparently contributing to play construction and play calling.

    When you factor that in, it's reasonable to postulate that this offence was the ideal situation for Fitz, and in evaluating it I think it's fair to say that Gailey's offence benefitted from Fitzpatrick. If I may go 'tech speak' for a second, Gailey's O was like software designed to run on Fitz' hardware with custom drivers pre-installed.

    For Fitz this was an ideal situation, but also for Gailey too, because Fitz could fill in any blanks. Tua wouldn't be able to do that. So Gailey's offence with Fitz isn't the same as with Tua. With Tua it's just Gailey's O as on paper, with nothing added.

    Now, this doesn't remove any responsibility from Tua for any errors. It's just a reality that needs to be considered when comparing Fitz and Tua in Gailey's offence, and a possible explanation, to whatever extent, of why the O looked different when Tua and Fitz were on the field.
     
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  32. MediocrityLivesOn

    MediocrityLivesOn Member

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    LOL we are the 49ers of the AFC. Living off the past and thinking every QB we draft or traded for is leading us back to the promise land.
     
  33. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    My opinion is obviously to move on. I didnt see a single thing that made me go "Wow this guy has skill X that translates really well into future success"

    I only saw traits that tell me the guy cant play QB at a high level consistently.
     
  34. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Gonna preface this by saying I did not want the Dolphins to draft Tua. I was very much in Justin Herbert camp as the best QB in the draft after Burrow. I just saw things in Herbert that Tua will never be (size and arm strength being the two main things that jumped out at me). I was also (and still am) concerned about Tua's durability.

    All that said, I just don't see how you can fairly evaluate him after 2/3 of a season. Especially when you factor everything that Covid did to complicate the situation. BUT...I very much would be looking to add another QB, either via the draft (preferable) or FA.

    Just my .02.
     
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  35. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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  36. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Yep! We have seen enough of QB's with a cannon for an arm who also had the cannonball between his ears!
     
  37. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the issue is at your end. Download a free copy of CCleaner and tidy up your hard drive and registry.
     
  38. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  39. MediocrityLivesOn

    MediocrityLivesOn Member

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    He’s made of glass, we will never make the playoffs with Tua. Ever.
     
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