Travon Martin Trial

"shula_guy wrote:

She comes across to me as a racist and you implied that if she were white that I would have a different opinion and give her more credibility. Maybe you did not mean it to come across that way but that's how it sounds to me.

You're right.

If she was more professional and comfortable more people would believe her. She really preformed badly on the stand.

"cdz12250 wrote:

OJ is probably not innocent either, but the state couldn't prove its case. That's what we're probably going to see here.

I don't fault the state as much I do the judge and the jury on that verdict.

"shula_guy wrote:

I don't fault the state as much I do the judge and the jury on that verdict.

But if the glove...

"RickyBobby wrote:

But if the glove...

that's what I fault the judge for. Those theatrics should of not been allowed

You can comment on the evidence on closing argument. You can exploit prosecution blunders.

If the mitt don't fit you gotta acquit...

"Fin D wrote:

If that happened Zimmerman is lying. Look at the map. If Zimmerman was walking back to his truck, why did he turn down the walkway?

I don't see how this is different*from your first OR scenario, but I did only get up an hour ago. Same thing though, if Zimmerman turns down the walkway, he's lying about being headed back to his truck.

Which also makes him guilty.

No, what I see is that in EVERY possible scenario, Zimmerman chased Martin. That's the first significant act of aggression and meets the burden for being considered assault. Zimmerman turned this into a volatile situation. Any scenario that shows Martin attacked Zimmerman has two major problems:

1. It ignores the chase as assault.
2. It can't explain why Martin was in fear enough to run, but then suddenly fearless enough to call GZ over to him and then attack.

My theory of what happened (again its a just a theory):

Zimmerman spots Martin walking. Starts to follow in his truck slowly. Martin notices it and gets suspicious picks up pace. GZ calls police and picks up his pace. TM decides to get a closer look at whose following him. TM realizes the guy is following him and not some random person driving slow looking for a address or texting or whatever. TM takes off running for the walkway in between the building since the person following him can't drive there and wants to run home. He rounds the corner and GZ runs past the walkway, TM hears this and hides in some bushes. GZ stops pursuit and heads back to his truck, hears rustling in the bushes down the walkway, stops heading back to his truck and turns down the walkway, where he sees TM hiding. TM already scared and cornered and fearing for his life thinks his only option is to attack and stand his ground, leaps out of the bushes tackling GZ. Sees GZs gun and tries to get it from him, can't so he punches GZ (whose head hits the concrete a couple of times) so he can get the gun. GZ gets control of the gun and shoots and kills Martin.

If you watch the walk through and see where TM's body was, GZ didn't walk down the pathway. It's very plausible that during the scuffle, which GZ claims started right at the "T", they moved the 10-15 ft down the path.

And again, you keep harping on the "chase". GZ was sitting in his truck, was approached by TM, TM saw him on the phone, TM ran. GZ then exited his truck, and from the audio, sounds as if he ran a very short distance, stopped, and claimed that he lost sight of him. He continued to talk to dispatch for more than a minute, telling dispatch that he'd be at his truck waiting for the police. After he hung up GZ claims that as he was walking past the alley intersection, TM came from down the alley, from beside/behind him and asked, "Do you have a problem"?

I love the "bushes" theory. One BIG problem...There were no bushes to hide in or rustle. There are a few 3' tall hedge looking things. He was hiding and afraid and yet "leaps out and attacks GZ"? How did he see GZ's gun? Do you think GZ was already holding it? This is all pretty much nonsensical. He ran...He ran while GZ was in his truck. At the point he started running he was about 70 yrd from his house. If he was so scared he could have been home in about 10 seconds...before GZ even made it back to the alley he ran down. Sometime between when TM ran and was shot he was talking to his girlfriend...or whatever she was. he was not scared, or hiding, or else he would have mentioned this to her. He said that some "creepy-ass cracka" was following him. She told him to go home and he said no. Anyhow, so TM is down the alley, and it seems walking back to the "T" intersection of the sidewalks. As Zimmerman is headed back to his truck, GZ claims that TM confronted him.

What this video from about the 2:25 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxmO9hXHC_o

"Fin D wrote:

It wasn't a lie. It was a mistake on my part. A mistake I have no problem admitting I made. I was going off from what I misunderstood from early in this whole situation, when the funeral director made the news by saying there weren't any marks on his knuckles. In those stories, there weren't any mention of an autopsy. Like in this one. Again, I misunderstood it and I was wrong.

I completely understand. Sorry I called it a lie. There is a lot of info about this case flying around and some of it is bunk.

"RickyBobby wrote:

It looks like he got punched once in the nose and his hit head. Notice scratches on the side of the head, that's not consistent with laying on your back having your head bashed in.

I understNd what the state needs to prove and I've said on here before that gz will most likely be found not guilty but that doesn't mean I believe he's innocent.

Idk what happened buri think gz continued to follow this kid, and everyone here would believe it if tmha a pretty white girlfriend instead of who was up on the stand

No. If his girlfriend hadn't of lied about pretty much everything, and then got busted for lying, she might be believed.

"RickyBobby wrote:

You're right.

If she was more professional and comfortable more people would believe her. She really preformed badly on the stand.

And wasn't a habitual liar.

One more thing. If some think GZ had his gun in his hand before he was punched by TM...OK. That's plausible that he was unholstered while looking for TM. However, I think if GZ had his gun in his hand he would have fired off more than one shot... either while getting punched or flailing on the ground. GZ, again, seems like a very meek person and doesn't seem too adept at protecting himself.

"Justright wrote:

If you watch the walk through and see where TM's body was, GZ didn't walk down the pathway. It's very plausible that during the scuffle, which GZ claims started right at the "T", they moved the 10-15 ft down the path.

And again, you keep harping on the "chase". GZ was sitting in his truck, was approached by TM, TM saw him on the phone, TM ran. GZ then exited his truck, and from the audio, sounds as if he ran a very short distance, stopped, and claimed that he lost sight of him. He continued to talk to dispatch for more than a minute, telling dispatch that he'd be at his truck waiting for the police. After he hung up GZ claims that as he was walking past the alley intersection, TM came from down the alley, from beside/behind him and asked, "Do you have a problem"?

I love the "bushes" theory. One BIG problem...There were no bushes to hide in or rustle. There are a few 3' tall hedge looking things. He was hiding and afraid and yet "leaps out and attacks GZ"? How did he see GZ's gun? Do you think GZ was already holding it? This is all pretty much nonsensical. He ran...He ran while GZ was in his truck. At the point he started running he was about 70 yrd from his house. If he was so scared he could have been home in about 10 seconds...before GZ even made it back to the alley he ran down. Sometime between when TM ran and was shot he was talking to his girlfriend...or whatever she was. he was not scared, or hiding, or else he would have mentioned this to her. He said that some "creepy-ass cracka" was following him. She told him to go home and he said no. Anyhow, so TM is down the alley, and it seems walking back to the "T" intersection of the sidewalks. As Zimmerman is headed back to his truck, GZ claims that TM confronted him.

What this video from about the 2:25 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxmO9hXHC_o

Number 1: there are bushes clearly visible in the video you posted that can be seen without even playing the freaking video. I mean, come the hell on.
Number 2: A chase is a chase. Why you act liek a chase that lasts a few seconds isn't significant speaks to your obvious "open mindedness".
Number 3: How hard do you think TM hit GZ that they ended up 15 yards away? Remember GZ's story goes, TM calls out his question, then a sucker punch, then TM is on top of GZ. That makes no sense.
Number 4: I didn't say he saw the gun from the bushes.
Number 5: GZ does say that TM went for GZ's gun. It'd be pretty hard to do that, if TM never sees it until he's shot with it.
Number 6: Its bizarre to me, how soooooooo many treat GZ's words as gospel. How often does that happen for you same people I wonder, where the defendant's word is never questioned and everything always must have happened exactly as they have said?

"Justright wrote:

And wasn't a habitual liar.

GZ is also a habitual liar and has a history of being violent. But the girl with no real skin in the game is the bad guy?

"Fin D wrote:

Number 1: there are bushes clearly visible in the video you posted that can be seen without even playing the freaking video. I mean, come the hell on.
Number 2: A chase is a chase. Why you act liek a chase that lasts a few seconds isn't significant speaks to your obvious "open mindedness".
Number 3: How hard do you think TM hit GZ that they ended up 15 yards away? Remember GZ's story goes, TM calls out his question, then a sucker punch, then TM is on top of GZ. That makes no sense.
Number 4: I didn't say he saw the gun from the bushes.
Number 5: GZ does say that TM went for GZ's gun. It'd be pretty hard to do that, if TM never sees it until he's shot with it.
Number 6: Its bizarre to me, how soooooooo many treat GZ's words as gospel. How often does that happen for you same people I wonder, where the defendant's word is never questioned and everything always must have happened exactly as they have said?

1. I said there were 3' tall hedges. Read my entire posts before you comment. Do you think he was laying on the ground, the wet mud, talking to his GF and hiding?
2. A chase is not a chase. If I'm the NHW captain and see a suspicious person, I call the police and try to see which way this person ran. That's not chasing.
3. He wasn't 15yds away. Maybe 10-15ft from where he was first punched to where he ended up on the ground. I take it you've never been in a fight? I've hit people, they've hit me, and we've both ended up way far away from where we first started.
4. Then why was he scared and why did he approach GZ? Why hide in a 3' hedge when he could have just ran home...I mean, he was so scared and all.
5. While GZ is on his back with TM on top, GZ claims that his shirt rises and TM sees the gun and goes for it. AFTER TM is already beating him.
6. Do you ever notice that I right "GZ claimed" a lot? Do you know why? Because I don't know if this really happened or not. It will be up to a jury to determine that. However, what he has "claimed" seems to be adding up. YOU'RE the one discrediting everything GZ says. You don't even look at the evidence. You just saw a headline, "white man shoots unarmed black kid" and immediately deemed the "white" man guilty. Even though he's not white.

"Fin D wrote:

GZ is also a habitual liar and has a history of being violent. But the girl with no real skin in the game is the bad guy?

10yr olds argue this way with their parents.

Rachel Jeantel is a liar. She's lied from day one about this case. THIS CASE. I'm sure GZ has lied in his life. I know of no one that has never lied.

"Justright wrote:

10yr olds argue this way with their parents.

Rachel Jeantel is a liar. She's lied from day one about this case. THIS CASE. I'm sure GZ has lied in his life. I know of no one that has never lied.

You should watch that last VIDEO I posted it breakdown the timeline using phone records and clubhouse video.

"Justright wrote:

1. I said there were 3' tall hedges. Read my entire posts before you comment. Do you think he was laying on the ground, the wet mud, talking to his GF and hiding?

Then you're arguing over the semantics between constitutes hedges and bushes? Are you saying he can't hide behind those hedges?

"Justright wrote:

2. A chase is not a chase. If I'm the NHW captain and see a suspicious person, I call the police and try to see which way this person ran. That's not chasing.

You try to see from a stationary vantage point. The second you start running after someone else running, then you are chasing.

"Justright wrote:

3. He wasn't 15yds away. Maybe 10-15ft from where he was first punched to where he ended up on the ground. I take it you've never been in a fight? I've hit people, they've hit me, and we've both ended up way far away from where we first started.

Try again. The distance from the "T" in the sidewalk to the spot labeled "F" is not even close to 10 feet. Its considerably more than that.

"Justright wrote:

4. Then why was he scared and why did he approach GZ? Why hide in a 3' hedge when he could have just ran home...I mean, he was so scared and all.

If you are talking about my theory, I explained it completely.

"Justright wrote:

5. While GZ is on his back with TM on top, GZ claims that his shirt rises and TM sees the gun and goes for it. AFTER TM is already beating him.

Riiiiight. Makes perfect sense. Being armed, chasing a guy, get attacked and never go for your own gun. Yup.

"Justright wrote:

6. Do you ever notice that I right "GZ claimed" a lot? Do you know why? Because I don't know if this really happened or not. It will be up to a jury to determine that. However, what he has "claimed"
seems to be adding up. YOU'RE the one discrediting everything GZ says. You don't even look at the evidence. You just saw a headline, "white man shoots unarmed black kid" and immediately deemed the "white" man guilty. Even though he's not white.

It doesn't matter if you're qualifying it, because you're using it all as gospel. You can keep saying that about what I read and how I came to my conclusions, but I've laid out my case for what I think clearly and precisely and have backed it all up with facts. You OTOH, have simply parroted everything GZ has said. That's it, that's all you've done. One shows critical thinking the other shows you agreeing with GZ start to finish, whether it makes sense or not.

"Justright wrote:

10yr olds argue this way with their parents.

Rachel Jeantel is a liar. She's lied from day one about this case. THIS CASE. I'm sure GZ has lied in his life. I know of no one that has never lied.

STFU. This isn't tit for tat, GZ has lied IN COURT, yet his testimony is factual to you and the girls isn't. Even the investigating officers thought he was lying about the events and wanted him arrested and he lied about money to the judge.

"Fin D wrote:

Then you're arguing over the semantics between constitutes hedges and bushes? Are you saying he can't hide behind those hedges?

You try to see from a stationary vantage point. The second you start running after someone else running, then you are chasing.

Try again. The distance from the "T" in the sidewalk to the spot labeled "F" is not even close to 10 feet. Its considerably more than that.

If you are talking about my theory, I explained it completely.

Riiiiight. Makes perfect sense. Being armed, chasing a guy, get attacked and never go for your own gun. Yup.

It doesn't matter if you're qualifying it, because you're using it all as gospel. You can keep saying that about what I read and how I came to my conclusions, but I've laid out my case for what I think clearly and precisely and have backed it all up with facts. You OTOH, have simply parroted everything GZ has said. That's it, that's all you've done. One shows critical thinking the other shows you agreeing with GZ start to finish, whether it makes sense or not.

No semantics here. Do you think TM was laying down in the mud, behind 3 foot hedges while talking to his girlfriend in order to hide from GZ? Seems far fetched.

Now you're arguing semantics. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that GZ chased a scared TM. He chased him AFTER TM took off running. The reason he chased him seems pretty plausible considering that he was on the phne with dispatch when he chased him. It's also fairly certain that he "chased" him for about 10-20 yards and lost him. If TM was so scared why not continue home? Why hide and then confront GZ?

From the "T" to TM's house, the distance is anywhere from 50-60 yards...according to everything that I've read. On your map it's roughly 3.5" from the "T" to TM's house. So, let's make it simple and say it's 50 yards from the "T" and 4" from the "T" to TM's house on the map. So, 50 yards = 4". That means every inch is about 12 yards or 36 ft.

From the "T" to the letter F on your map, it's about 1/2 of an inch. That's about 18 feet. Now, if you want to get precise and do the exact math they were about 15-25 ft from the "T". Previously I wrote 10-15 ft and that's pretty damn close and is most certainly NOT "not close to 10 feet".

Better yet...look at these photos.

In the 1st photo how far away is that tree from the sidewalk? 5? 7 feet? In the second photo how far away is TM's body from that tree? If you think the police standing there are about 6' tall...then he's about 10-12 ft away from that. Again, anywhere from 15-19 ft away.

"Fin D wrote:

STFU. This isn't tit for tat, GZ has lied IN COURT, yet his testimony is factual to you and the girls isn't. Even the investigating officers thought he was lying about the events and wanted him arrested and he lied about money to the judge.

"STFU"? Really? And that's how 10 year olds argue with each other.

If we're arguing this hard among ourselves, do you think there's a snowball's chance nin hell that Zimmerman gets convicted?

"cdz12250 wrote:

If we're arguing this hard among ourselves, do you think there's a snowball's chance nin hell that Zimmerman gets convicted?

He shouldn't be convicted for something he is not guilty of.

Another thing about this case that I keep thinking about is the fact that some criticize GZ for calling the cops a lot. Something like 40 times in a few years. To me that shows a person who doesn't want physical confrontation. It seems as if GZ wanted the cops to handle that side of it.

"cdz12250 wrote:

If we're arguing this hard among ourselves, do you think there's a snowball's chance nin hell that Zimmerman gets convicted?

I don't know. Jurors aren't stupid. They most likely feel the pressure to convict or watch Sanford (among other cities) get burned down by rioting blacks. Now, I'm not saying that they will succumb to that pressure, but it's a possibility. In fact, if GZ was a black guy I doubt this even goes to court.

"Justright wrote:

I don't know. Jurors aren't stupid. They most likely feel the pressure to convict or watch Sanford (among other cities) get burned down by rioting blacks. Now, I'm not saying that they will succumb to that pressure, but it's a possibility. In fact, if GZ was a black guy I doubt this even goes to court.

Not going there.

"Justright wrote:

I don't know. Jurors aren't stupid. They most likely feel the pressure to convict or watch Sanford (among other cities) get burned down by rioting blacks. Now, I'm not saying that they will succumb to that pressure, but it's a possibility. In fact, if GZ was a black guy I doubt this even goes to court.

So far, I personally believe GZ is innocent of the charges but I think what you just posted is unfair to say. An unarmed teen was fatally shot. I'm not sure this should of gotten past a grand jury but it did and I have no problem with sorting this out by a jury trial. I give the jury the benefit of the doubt that they will render the most accurate decision they can free of outside influences. I also give communities the benefit of doubt that they wont riot when there is a verdict they don't agree with.