Yes, at the time, he was with Detroit, but get psyched mofos! http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top10...4/Top-100-Players-of-2015-No-24-Ndamukong-Suh
Lol...23 players better than Suh lol There are elite qbs I would take, no wide receivers and maybe JJ watt, and that's it.. Please someone name me a skillset player besides elite young qb or a def player besides watt they would take over Suh?
I'd give more credence to that ranking than most other rankings dj. First of all, it's chosen by fellow NFL players, not fans. And second of all, the goal of the poll isn't to determine who is the most valuable player to a team, but who performed the best. You're talking about most valuable for a team, and I agree there may not be anyone else except a top QB and Watt, though some players like AP might be arguable. But in terms of performance, I do tend to agree with many on that list above Suh (from say past years' rankings), though I disagree with the actual rankings.
IIRC, Suh's 24th ranking will be the highest for a DT. Last year's highest DT ranking was 29th. 2013 was 30th. See a recent trend here? DTs don't receive as much glory, especially since the league's best ones lose production to double teams. If Suh only had to face 1 player each snap like Richard Sherman & Revis do, he'd finish in the top 10 with ease. His ranking should be taken with a grain of salt. There's a reason he's the NFL's highest paid defensive player. It's because he's the most dominant defender in the game along with JJ Watt. He single-handedly beat the Cowboys in the playoffs had the refs not blown a blatant holding call against Suh at the end that handed Dallas the win. He owned Travis Frederick & Zack Martin in 1 on 1 battles and physically & emotionally broke Dallas's elite offensive line. Any player capable of such a feat merits a top 10 ranking.
Ok, let's say watt is the best defender in the league, just for this exercise, ok, what other defender besides Suh in his prime would you take?... Like who on defense ?.. The point is there really isn't anyone more dominant and effective player on D then Suh.. So then, we have some qbs, I'd say maybe 7 or 8, ok, now what skill player would anyone take over Suh? Seriously? Dez Bryant, Calvin Johnson? Who?
That game was pure Rage-Boner type stuff all the way through as far as Suh is concerned. I really liked him coming out of Nebraska and getting to see him live last year was awesome, especially since the series he wrecked single-handedly was near the end of the field where I was sitting (even if it was against the Dolphins). That playoff game was something special. Can't wait to see him in a Dolphins uniform this fall.
The bolded part I totally agree on, and in principle I agree with much of the rest of the post (regarding the 1 vs. 1 thing), but let's go back to dj's original question about whether any offensive player other than a top QB should be above Watt/Suh. In 2014, the #2 player on the list was Calvin Johnson. He broke the single season receiving yards record the year before. In 2013, AP was #1; he had almost 2100 yards the season before. For Suh to go up that high, I think he needs to break the sack record or so, or at least something similar. Either way, there are some offensive players other than QB's that really do deserve to be above Suh if you just look at performance and don't ask who is the most valuable for building a team.
The 5 most dominant players of the past 5 years [excluding QB]: JJ Watt, Calvin Johnson, Adrian Peterson, Suh, Gronkowski, with Suh being the most dominant DT since Mean Joe Greene. Revis, Pat Peterson, and Kuechly simply do not belong ahead of Suh. Only Watt does. I'd rank Suh and Richard Sherman as 2a and 2b.
Yeah, see my post right above, but I'd also add that in terms of how impressive a defensive player can be 1 vs. 1, I can see why someone would put Revis (in some years past) or Sherman above Suh. I'd also add that the importance (in the right hands) of some TE's (Graham, Gronk) in this new passing-based NFL can approach the importance of Suh. btw.. just to make it clear (as I did in my first response to your post).. I do agree with you if you're talking about value to a team.
If AP's 2012 MVP season was good enough to earn a #1 ranking, then Suh's status as the most dominant DT since Mean Joe Greene should warrant a top 10 ranking, period. What? If you look at "performance", Suh is a top 10 player. Sorry but you're confusing "performance" with stats, and they're NOT the same thing. Stats can be meaningless in these rankings, and production can be accomplished absent of stats. For instance, according to your theory, Nnamdi Asomugha's 2008 & 2009 seasons should've never earned #12 & #13 rankings on the back of just 1 INT each season and 13 combined passes broken. Revis had just 2 INTs last year but will be ranked higher than Suh who had an impressive 8.5 sacks despite constant double teams. Pat Peterson will be ranked higher despite just 3 INTs. Again, according to your theory, there should be 26 corners ranked ahead of Peterson. That's the number of corners who picked off more passes in 2014. Perrish Cox finished with 5 INTs, 18 PDs, 53 tkls, and 2 fumble recoveries. Why was he omitted from the Top 100 when Richard Sherman will be top 10 despite 4 INTs, 8 PDs, 57 tkls, and 0 FR? Obviously that's a rhetorical question. Secondly, it's silly to compare a DT to an offensive player whose positional nature sets himself up for greater statistical production. Offensive coordinators ensure that the league's top offensive players receive an abundance of opportunities. Offensive coordinators also make a strong attempt to ensure Ndamukong Suh receives as few opportunities as possibly, so you're not talking apples to oranges here. Corners and defensive tackles you can stay away from by not throwing their way or sticking more bodies on them. You can't really do that with linebackers and safeties. Suh faced gobs of double teams, but even though these double teams limit his stats, his "performance" against these double teams are often outstanding despite not showing up in the stat column. If he holds his ground which allows a teammate to make a big play, sack, or TFL, then he performed on that play and deserves credit for some of the play's defensive "production" despite the actual stat itself going to his teammate. Detroit finished 8th in sacks with 42 despite not having an elite edge rusher [7.5 sacks was Detroit's highest at DE]. How many of those 42 were created via Suh's presence? DeAnde Levy's 15 TFL's were as many as JJ Watt's and 2nd most in the NFL. Baltimore's CJ Mosley had just 5 TFL's. Keuchly had 8. Detroit's 66 TFL's were 2nd most in the NFL and 30 more than the Patriots, 33 more than Pitt, and 34 more than Carolina. Is Suh's presence merely a coincidence? Additionally, Suh's 13 TFL's ranked 4th in the NFL and 1st among all DT. His 8.5 sacks ranked 3rd among all DT. Suh's 21.5 combined plays behind the LOS ranked 1st among all DT.
and I strongly disagree with this statement of yours. A defensive tackle's "value to his team" is still related to this materialistic statistical production that you speak of. If Suh's presence allows a teammate to make a play, then a play has been made, period. The play's stat is now in the books. Just b/c the stat goes to another player, it doesn't change the fact that the stat exists b/c of Suh's presence. What you're doing is tantamount to suggesting the stat never existed in the first place. You keep talking about Suh's "value to the team" as if that is somehow different than his level of performance. Well, if Suh's team value is as high as you suggest it is [which I agree with], then by default that would have to mean there's a related increase in team production/performance. Well, Detroit's defense ranking 2nd in TFLs and 8th in sacks is statistical production. Detroit as a team didn't make all those individual plays; the players themselves did.... and their offensive opposition didn't just fall down or wave a white flag with Suh on the field to cause production in the absence of stats. Detroit's D ranking 1st against the run [3.2 YPC], 2nd in scoring, and 5th in rushing TDs are all examples of PRODUCTION. Sorry but your argument is founded on a flawed premise. For some reason you choose to be heavily semantical about it by suggesting Suh deserves no credit for any statistical production that he has a hand in creating if said stats fall under a teammates' game card.
First of all, I'm not confusing performance with stats. In some cases, stats are a good way of measuring performance, in other cases not. Start with AP. His MVP year I think he deserved that rank. But despite being arguably the best RB of our era, I wouldn't put him in the top 10 just because of that each and every year. Same goes with Calvin Johnson. Keeping in mind this poll was about performance, I think what matters is how you measure up against peers. So whether DT is a very different position than CB or WR is irrelevant. What matters is how far away from the average at your position you are, whether that's measured with stats or not. This means it doesn't matter if Suh is getting double-teamed or whether OC's scheme against him, as long as that's happening to many other DT's (during Wilfork or Sapp's periods of peak performance, they got a lot of attention too). Thus, the question is how difficult is it for a RB to achieve what AP did in his MVP season or a WR to achieve what CJ did in his record breaking season vs. what Suh did as a DT (pick a year). I think Suh is great, but I don't think he's done something so impressive relative to other DT's as what those two did in their record breaking years. What they did was really difficult. I put Suh's performance on par with dominant CB's like Revis (in his prime) or Sherman at his best. We've seen other great performances like from the TE's I mentioned: Gronk and Graham. Point is.. Suh is great, and his ability so far to do this year in year out + the fact he is young suggests he will be an all-time great (he's not there yet with Mean Joe Greene because of the overall career production), but on a single year basis I don't think he's any more dominant than many other players. And if you admit to including 5+ QB's in the top 10, you're easily justified putting Suh in the 10-20 category without disrespecting him at all.
You need to first stop misrepresenting my position before continuing, whatever the reason for that is (could be I didn't explain things well enough or not.. doesn't matter). Value to a team for me is measured by the degree to which that player improves the chances of the team winning, relative to all other players. That doesn't mean it's easy to measure. But that's the idea. A measure of individual performance for me is how good that player is relative to all other players at his position. I think that's more what other NFL players are looking at when they look at peers, not who you would pick if you were building a team from scratch. Those two are clearly very different things and need not have much correlation between them. You can be otherworldly as an OG and not improve the team's chances of winning much, while you might be slightly above average as a QB and improve the team's chances of winning more. Suh's value to a team is not in doubt for me. Only certain QB's and Watt are higher, at least based on last year's performance. But his individual performance is not in my books necessarily so much higher relative to other DT's as many other players are relative to others at their position.
It would help if you qualified yourself b/c at the moment your repeated reference to "individual performance" has no structure. You need to define what "performance" means to you. I mean, you keep talking about it as if it has a set definition which just isn't the case. As far as Suh's performance goes compared to his defensive tackle peers, he's the #1 DT in the game and arguably the most dominant since Mean Joe Greene, so you need to qualify WHY you think those other top positional players are that much greater relative to their peers. Here, I'll give you a starting point. Suh: 5x All Pro in all 5 yrs, 4x 1st Team [including 2 unanimous] The next closest DTs: Haloti Ngata- 3x All Pro (2x 1st Team) Gerald McCoy- 3x All Pro (2x 1st Team) Kyle Williams- 3x All Pro (2x 1st Team) Justin Smith- 3x All Pro (1 1st Team) Vince Wilfork- 3x All Pro (1x 1st Team) Geno Atkins- 2x All Pro (1x 1st Team) ***Ngata is the only other recent DT with a string of 5 straight All Pro, but he had 3 1st Team compared to Suh's 4. Find me another player who outperformed their peers to an even greater degree. Happy hunting. Secondly, your definition of "individual performance" seems subjectively based solely on and limited to "playing stats", which, like I said, is inherently flawed as there's more than one position involved and there are more stats than just playing stats. Aside from MVP [which defense rarely wins] and Defensive Player of the Year, 1st Team All Pro is the greatest "stat" there is.
Fair enough.. First, let's suppose that you actually could measure performance (this is not necessarily an accurate assumption right now given our inability to measure certain things, but it is useful for clarifying things). That means you are putting each individual on some scale that has units where you can count how many units lie between any two players' measures (measurement => you can concatenate units to determine the relative distance between two things that were measured). All you do then is look at the distribution of individual measures and use some general stat to quantify how far away from average that person is. Basically, what I'm saying is that IF you could measure individual performance, then it's easy to define "individual performance" as standard deviations above the mean, for each position separately. Regarding comparisons to other players, like I said we really don't have a good measure using stats alone, so we can't just look at stats in this case (this is also partly because we don't know how to include the kind of influence on other players you speak of into "individual" stats). I gotta go by what I see, and it's fine if you disagree there. But when I see a shutdown corner like Revis or Sherman at their best, I don't obviously see why Suh is in another category relative to his peers than they are relative to theirs (note there are 1st team all pro's at other positions too.. doesn't mean I see them all as equals though). The only time I said guys should clearly be above Suh were with AP and CJ in those record breaking years because of how difficult I perceive that to be for other RB's and WR's. On another note, one problem with your list above is that it's looking at performance in years past. We're only talking about a single year at a time.
I would bet money if you did a draft of NFL players by NFL gms, N-Suh would not be the 25 th pick in the first round..lol
That's fine but the point still remains, Suh and watt would go 1 and 2 as far as defenders go with anyone who knows what their doing, revis being in the argument, and whoever would pick a skill set player besides qb over JJ watt or Suh, I wouldn't trust when it comes to evaluating players.
Them and ESPN are turning into complete jokes..I used to never miss anything regarding football and Liked Total access..insert Keith Evans...Fin4Ever quits watching the show after 2 years of listening to him...I will not watch the Patriots biased show again until they hit refresh and give us all new commentators.
And in another novelty setting.....a boy named Suh had to learn to defend himself all the time until he grew into a man named Suh...
If you're talking SOLELY from 2014...I'd have to go with Aaron Rodgers, JJ, then Suh as my top 3. Disclaimer: I didn't watch a ton of "other" team's games, so that's my limited-view list.
as much as I love Suh and know he's top 10, I'd have a hard time putting him ahead of Gronk. Gronk is just as unstoppable as Suh. I think the gap between Gronk and the 2nd and 3rd best TE's is larger than the gap between Suh and McCoy and either one of the DTs from NYJ and Barfalo. Gronk should be top 5 IMO.
yeah I have gronk in my top 10 as well..also had us drafting him the year he came out..''he will be the best tight end in the league in three years''...didnt go as I planned.
I can agree with that. If Gronk can maintain a healthy career, he becomes the most dominant TE to ever play, whereas a healthy career by Suh will leave him something like top 6 all time, perhaps in the back end of tier 1 with Joe Greene, Bob Lilly, Alan Page, Merlin Olsen, and Randy White, but those guys were so great that it'll take a goliath of a player to unseat them. However, just being mentioned in the same breath as those guys places Suh in the top 10 IMO.
