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To give you an idea of what we have to deal with...

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Pagan, Mar 26, 2009.

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  1. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    I have to at times.
    I just hope my life reflects my beliefs to others.
    I try my best to be what I need to be to live out my faith.
    I have no need to impress others. At the end of the day, I'm the one responsible for my words and actions.
     
  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    The question you ask is the "what" querstion. How about the "why" question or maybe the "how"? I would argue that the minute you reach the cognitive horizon of another person you have begun to witness to them. Do you discover their needs both physical and spiritual? Do you assess their spiritual "place"? Do you inquire as to their beliefs so you might learn what you have to offer? If salvation is viewed only as something for "in the sky, by and by", than a young person will likely reject you outright because they believe themselves to be immortal. However, if it involves a responsibility to care for life and live for others now, it might have an appeal and then if the person is all about themself, it might not, but we all need to take the time to learn that. Even Billy Graham only preached to those who had chosen to come into earshot of him.

    I've cold called doors for the faith and for different congregations. It wears out shoe leather and it helpful mostly to the caller in refining your message to a neighborhood. As to making an uninvited evangelism call, my personal experiance is that they anger far more people and reinforce their negative feelings than they reach people who are seeking more in their lives.

    My prefered method of witness is to wear my clerical collar or a specific Church shirt and be visible in a community. People observe my life's witness and by being available they approach you on their schedule not yours.

    It works for me.
     
  3. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    I wish I could put my thoughts and beliefs into words the way you do.
    You are truly blessed with the wisdom to state things clearly.
    Mine gets all jumbled up and comes out sounding off kilter.
     
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  4. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Exactly, we agree to disagree. The good fact is that in our disagreeing, neither of us is telling the other that they're "wrong". :wink2:

    Now this is an interesting comment you've made, brother Ohio. Why is it "baiting" to have symbols of my faith in my yard?

    I grew up in an Italian/Irish section of the Bronx. I can't tell you how many homes had a statue of Jesus or Mary in their front yard. Would that be considered "baiting"?

    Think about it, my friend.

    And my Goddess loves you too. :)

    You misinterpret the meaning of "sharing" bro.

    Sharing is sharing when asked. I would gladly share with someone who came to me and asked. They have shown interest, they will get info. Simple as that.

    I would NOT - however - drive into another neighborhood in a van with other Wiccans and go door to door trying to "save" anyone. This - IMO - is harassment.

    Wiccans - just to inform everyone - do not proselytize.
     
  5. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO it still goes back to "those who who believe like us are going to heaven, those who believe differently are going to hell". That's what causes the desire to "save" anyone. That intolerance is my main beef with many religions.

    I grew up Catholic and have 13 years of Catholic school. As I got older I asked more questions and the answers were IMO non-sensical. The bible itself is filled with so many contradictions. It never made sense to me that a baby who died in childbirth would be denied heaven through no fault of his own. Or that a good person who hadn't been "saved" b/c he never heard the Word of God would also suffer the same fate. It seemed like an inherently unfair system and I couldn't imagine God creating such a poor system.

    So one day I was speaking to Catholic priest whom I considered a friend. He told me that the essence of the bible is "love one another" and that the rest is just opinion on how you should do that. I think it's the same with the consequences. As I grew older I studied more religions and I found that they were remarkably similar in their core beliefs about how people should behave. The differences seem to come from the details. I think the saying "the devil is in the details" applies. The core of most religions is good but the evil comes in when man fills in the details.
     
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  6. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    If you had grown up in an Hassidic neighborhood of Brooklyn and had statues of the Virgin, yes, that would be baiting, imo. To proudly display symbols of your faith knowing others object has to me a bit of the sense of more than pride.

    Now perhaps I should define my term so we are on the same page.

    Baiting= "Showing pride in such a public way as to invite, almost demand, discussion and to disdain contrary opinion."


    That's baiting to me. Everything about what you do here tells me you are proud of your belief system and ready at the drop of a hat to define, debate, and yes even stick a needle into the pompous and others who don't bring their A game. You can't tell me you don't enjoy the turmoil you sometimes inject into a conversation can you?

    I should also say, I consider that, if not a virtue, at least a fun trait. I've been known to wear a clerical into a secular forum just to let folks know I was there and to stir the pot!
     
  7. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I hope you are not suggesting that those of us who still embrace the Christian faith are some how less enlightened than you or that we haven't figured it out the way you have? I am fully aware of what you are calling contradictions and have no problem saying some things don't fit and others seem at cross purposes. Yet, I think I'm reasonably bright and have spent a lifetime in study and practice.

    For me the Christian system works because it presumes we start with God not with ourselves. If your understanding of religion is strictly moralistic then yes you have a point. The behavioral aspects of most world religions are similar. But for me behavior follows belief and it all starts with a relationship with God.

    Pagan, don't you start with the Goddess and work out from there?
     
  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    As an adult that is the part of Christianity I do not really agree with. Well agree with is a bit harsh. It is impossible to not start with ourselves. Unless you are one who has completely let go of one's "ego".

    Not saying you do this, I also see that many people use that system to do horrible and mean things. Because they can use the fact they are giving over to God and God says for them to be a jerk. It is not their fault they are ***es, it is God's will for them to be ***es.

    Of course ***es being a subjective term. One man's *** is another man's virtuous crusade for the love of their God.
     
  9. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    People of all faiths, beliefs and systems do horrible things.

    The God I believe in would never ask me to do anything to hurt anyone or anything. He hates sin and would never ask anyone to go do anything "In His name" that was bad.

    To me, people who do bad things in some one else's name, whether it be God or someone of their faith, is a liar and puts a big blemish on our true beliefs.

    As for God telling some one to be a jerk. IMO, that person is a jerk without anyone having to "tell" him.
     
  10. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I suppose you could read my comments as to suggest that but that would not be my first reading of someone else saying what I did.

    Earlier posters talked about their seeking this or that. I suggest that is a reverse of the process, God seeks us. We do have a free will and the ability to discern. The reason for sacred texts is to act as an authoratative guide to the teaching of the diety so as to minimize delusion.

    But more importantly in America is the need for religious community. Here we practice a form of My god and me. Even Christian language of "Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior" gets a bit close to a level of individualism with which I am uncomfortable. We need community, a congregation, a coven, a minyan, a mosque, to try and keep us in line.

    One of the resons I am a Lutheran (though most denominational families would do) is because I have a layer or more of authority over me. That tries to keep me and my indiividual flock from going too far off the deep end. The individual who says God speaks to them and them alone hasn't paid attention to their holy text, no matter what the religious persuasion because all call for mutual accountability. Americans don't like to be accountable to anyone.

    Even here on this website we are accountable to each other through the mods and admins. That is as it should be.
     
  11. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I would never claim that belief in any religion is more enlightened than belief in any other religion. That's my point. I think that any religion that goes around saying "if you don't believe like we do you're going to hell" is making the claim that it is more enlightened than everybody else.

    And my belief also begins with God. I think it's the same God given different names due to different human interpretations. In other words it all begins with God, the differences are just our perspectives.
     
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  12. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Then it's a sad world we live in, and the fact that you use the word "object" is also sad. (not in terms of you specifically).

    Actually, I think you're wrong about your analogy. Hassidim, and most Jews for that matter, don't really care about the other faiths. Nor do they want you to join theirs. I truly believe you'd have no problem from them displaying a symbol of your faith.

    TOTALLY disagree. I don't show "pride" when I have symbols visible. When you put up your Christmas tree or Christmas decorations, are you showing pride? More than likely not, it's part of your faith's tradition. Well, the tree is actually a Pagan tradition, but we won't get into that here. :tongue:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but it almost seems like you're saying I should keep my faith hidden. Would you do such a thing?

    Actually Ohio, no I do not. It grows tiring, and the only reason I'm "ready at the drop of a hat" is because of the constant misinformation, misrepresentation, and ridicule that we have to deal with.

    I'm not going to hide who I am. Do Jews hide what they are in public? Do Chirstians? Answer me honestly Ohio...why should Wiccans?

    And the problem, and once again NO offense to the good Christians of this board, is the Christian population. I've never encountered any problem with ANY other faith in all my years of belonging to the Craft.

    On message boards maybe. But when I've had my car defaced due to a pentacle hanging from my rear view for protection, it's more troublesome than fun.

    In a nutshell yes. It's a little more complicated than that.
     
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  13. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box



    It is a sad world, no battle with me on that one. When I wear a clerical collar or a large cross I sometimes have parents pick up children and hustle them away from me as if I was contagious. People do object to things they should, at worst ignore, and at best show respectful defferance to. You would be amazed at the number of times I am riding in a hearse and people cut us off on the way to a cemetary!




    I don't know, maybe the Hassidim are better than I give them credit for being regarding tolerance. If so I humbly apologize. I just remember being beaten up by Jewish kids in my neighborhood for wearing a 5mmX3mm lapel cross, for being chased out of an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood in Jerusalem for wearing a ball cap with a cross logo on it, and being generally shunned for having Christian symbols on our home in a Jewish neighborhood in NJ. Perhaps your experiance is better.



    Not so much the tree perhaps (even though my ancestors "baptized" the Pagan practice:tongue2:) but yes I proudly display a creche in my front yard at Christmas time. It is a "witness" for me. I am proud of my faith as you are of yours and I am willing to take some heat for that.

    I think you misread me though that is likely an issue of my clarity. Wearing a symbol marks you or me. It says we are what we are and proud of it. It invites folks to engage us. The only way anyone should hide their symbols is if they do not wish to be known!


    I am sorry if I have misread your efforts. I trust you believe me when I say, I meant no offense. I honestly enjoy the interplay and banter. Yes, it does get tiring at times but on balance I like the exchanges and thought you did as well. Again, sorry for the projection going on there.


    Certainly it is more complicated for all of us. My point in that exchange was the flaw in a logic which starts with the human and not with the divine. Given the responses I have gotten from that post, I better check my writing because now two of you have taken it in directions I would have never suspected.
     
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  14. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Then brother, I weep for the future. :pity:

    Wow, you must have some hardcore Jews in that neighborhood. They haven't been like that in my neck of the woods.

    For the most part though, Ohio...your heat can't possibly be as bad. Watch the news come Halloween time. Probably the holiest of our Sabbats. We call it Samhain (pronounced "sow-en") and it's our New Year's. Everywhere you look people are protesting us around that time.

    I'm not saying you don't have heat. Trust me I know that there is some resentment against Christians lately, but in all honesty I think alot of it was brought on by members of the faith themselves. I know that Jesus' teachings weren't about that, but sometimes your own clergy take some matters into their own hands and warp the message bad enough - and high profile enough - to make others resent them.

    The issue a few years back of a group of priests led by a congressman trying to ban Wiccan soldiers from holding rituals on their bases was pathetic. I don't recall ever seeing another faith try to ban Christians from attending mass on an army base. To have members of the clergy do this is inexcusable, and paints a terrible picture of the faith.

    The mob of people led by clergymen who ran a school for Wiccan students out of their town was equally appalling. It was like a scene from Frankenstein, all that were missing were the torches and pitchforks.

    Okay thank you for clearing that up!

    No need to apologize. Of course we all enjoy the banter, especially now that it's not like it was on the other board. One certain member pretty much blew it for all.

    Understood. What I meant by complicated is that when you talk deity there are more than just the Goddess involved on my part. :wink2:
     
  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Interesting...what were the supporting texts for the babies going to hell? I've always been taught that a baby that died went to heaven, and that is based on things David said and did prior to, and after, losing his child with Bathsheba.
     
  16. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I was told they couldn't go to heaven if they had not been baptized b/c everybody is born with original sin.
     
  17. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    If I remember right, unbaptized babies went to Purgatory.
     
  18. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    I have studied many different religions in my lifetime. As a (now retired) military man, I was able to travel to different places and learn from the people practicing their beliefs. This has helped me form my own opinion about religion and faith.

    I agree what Rafael says in red above. Most of the different "religions" have the same basic foundations. The difference is in the details like someone else said earlier.

    I remember growing up as a child in Sunday school and asking many questions. It would seem like when someone didn't have a good answer, they would say "you just have to have faith and believe". The first thing I remember questioning is that God has been around "forever". As told to me and the Sunday school class...he one day decided to make the heavens and Earth. My question was/still is: If he has been around "Forever", why did he suddenly become bored and decide to do this? If he has forever been here, then does that mean he waited "forever" to make us? If yes, we wouldn't be here. I was removed from the school for the rest of the day and made to sit with my mother.

    History has not helped with the inconsistencies I find in the Bible. Taoism works best for me.

    Thanks Pagan for this post. I'm glad everyone here is discussing and not attacking. That's a great sign. :up:
     
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  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, cause that theory is supported by Scripture.:no:

    That's one of my problems with Catholic doctrine...it oftentimes has no basis in Scripture. Baptism, which by the way, was immersion, not sprinkling, was not done to babies. It was done to people who had accepted Christ as their Saviour, as an outward showing of their conversion. Baptising babies doesn't save them.
     
  20. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    While I am not a Roman Catholic, as a graduate theologian let me say that Catholic teaching did not condemn unbaptized infants nor consign them to purgatory. By the official dogma, they went to "Limbo", which a Catholic theologian once explained to me was a dressed up version of "we don't know what happens because there is no Biblical attestation but we can leave it in God's loving hands". While I have problems with the idea of a "Limbo" (or a purgatory for that matter), the general explanation works for me.

    Resnor, you and I have disagreed before on what Baptism is and what it means. I understand your position within the Christian family and recognize that in its extreme versions, I am not a Christian nor are the 80+% of the folks who think they are because that is the rough percentage of folks who were baptized as infants.

    No matter how hard or often you say it, I will continue to believe and teach the word for Baptism in the New Testament literally means "to dip", not immerse nor sprinkle, but "dip". The scholar you pointed me to the last time we discussed this is utterly unconvincing on this point and beyond your scholar the overwhelming scholarship of Christiandom is on my side on this one!

    I will also continue to Baptize infants into the community of faith just as Jewish infants were circumsized into the faith and as the Church has practiced since biblical times and I will invite the parents within the community to raise them within the faith. Baptism is an entry rite and not purely salvific on its own. It is not magic! And by the way I don't sprinkle, don't know anyone who does, we pour, in fact we pour a lot!

    We come at Baptism from different perspectives, Resnor, and it likely will neither help either of us nor inform this thread if we continue that battle over and over. I will point out that my view is just that and ask that you do the same and make a pronoucment that yours is the only Christian view! (Note the bold portion of your quote above, you speak as if that is the only way without acknowledging yours is a minority position within Christian theology. A position I will respect but disagree with)

    Oh and Gunn, would you agree that among the major religions of the world one distinctive element of Christianity among the major religions is that we believe God came to us, we do not attain unto God? The Christian faith describes how God became human not how humans become divine. That is part of what I mean when I talk about starting with God. (Honestly here Pagan, I don't know whether or not in the "Old Ways" as you describe them who seeks who first??? I don't know the theology of your faith as well as I do others)

    If folks reduce Christianity only to a moral code then it is no better, indeed little different than other relgions. Our distinction, where understood, comes in relationship and who seeks to be in relationship with whom.

    Also as a comment to the large number of you who didn't get your questions answered very well in Sunday School, I am sorry. The folks teaching were trying and lets be honest, some Sunday School teachers don't know what they should. I still can't get most of them to come to teacher training sessions. Yet did you push your questions "up the food chain" to folks who could answer better? Pastors? profs?

    No one is going to like this but if you have rejected a faith system, any system, because a teacher or parent could not answer an 8 year old's question to your satisfaction and you never persued it further then shame on you for a lack of intellectual curiosity!
     
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  21. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    We have talked about this before. It is appalling. I know I don't bear the weight of criticism you and your fellow followers do. I want to "win" because the honesty of my words and actions is convicing not because i have murdered the opposition!
     
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  22. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    The concept of original sin is supported by scripture in Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

    And according to John 3:5 baptism seems to be a necessity to get into heaven unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost So while it was originally practiced on adults, the teachings of St. Augustine and St. Thomas helped form and support the Catholic traditional view that unbaptized babies don't go to heaven.

    The concept of limbo that Ohiophinphan mentions above is where I was taught that unbaptized babies went as well.
     
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  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I didn't disagree with the idea of original sin. Of course we are all born sinners...we are all born with the sin nature, passed down to us, as the Bible says, by our father Adam.

    If you say that salvation comes by baptism, then you are attributing your salvation to something done by a man...and not by the death and spilled blood of Christ. Here's a nice little breakdown of baptism:

     
  24. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I just want to point out for the record that while Resnor's position would be held by some of the few million folks who practice only "Believer's baptism", the rest of the 1.8 billion people on the planet who confess Christ as Savior would heartily disagree.

    Oh and Resnor, despite your quote, Luther never practiced full immersion as a regular practice.

    To the rest of you sorry for the family squabble. Just as Pagan gets upset, rightly so, when folks question his faith and practice of try to convert him, I object to being told I am not a Christian or don't know the Bible.
     
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  25. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    In my faith. We believe baptism is the public showing of a new life in Christ. And some believe it is upon joining a church.
    Salvation comes first and foremost.
    Baptism is cleansing off the old and bringing in the new you. It is a sacred and beautiful thing to me.
    I also believe babies and children are protected by God until they are of an age of being able to understand the TRUE meaning of salvation.
     
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  26. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Then we are always protected by god since I haven't met anyone who understood the TRUE meaning of salvation ;).

    At best I see people with good ideas.
     
  27. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    I understand what it means to me personally, so therefore, I don't feel the need to try and explain all my feelings and beliefs.
    I believe what I believe and that's enough for me.
    I try to respect others and their ways, at all times, but I expect the same in return.
     
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  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    And now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about you not being a Christian. YOU are the one who started with that.

    Luther also didn't want to leave the Catholic Church, despite him believing that they were wrong on 195 things. Does it surprise you that he could believe that the Bible meant "to dip" as you define it (which is STILL more alike to baptism than pouring water...), yet still not practice it? I mean, if he thought the Church was wrong, but wouldn't leave...

    I'm not sure why you get upset. If you don't believe that baptism is by immersion, and you don't believe that baptism comes after salvation, you shouldn't be upset to discuss that with someone who believes differently. I'm more than happy to hear you position...and to discuss it from a Biblical perspective (I apologize, I really don't recall the last discussion that we apparently had on this...)

    Debby, I agree with you. I also believe that baptism is an outward showing of your decision to take Christ as your Saviour. Also, I believe that being baptized is your membership into the church in which you were baptized.
     
  29. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    This thread is Pagan's and it has been hijacked far enough.

    Resnor if you wish to start a thread on your understanding of Christian theology go ahead.
     
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  30. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    These last couple of posts are one reason why I dislike organised religion as a whole. You guys are both good people but when it comes to someone's faith it can become a very hairy subject. As you mentioned Ohio this was Pegan's thread to start with and wasn't even intended on going down this path and due to both of you guys wanting to be known as good and solid to your faith's (which I'm sure you both are) through heated words even momentarily it has torn you two apart.

    It is a shame that such a good thing can become such a venomous poison in such a short time even for a little while
     
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  31. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I remember hearing that at one time but I questioned it when I got a little older and was then told about limbo. It always felt to me like they were making it up as they went along. :lol:

    I kind of think that's what happened with all religion. The basics are God and love one another. Everything else is man's interpretation. Even the religions that don't believe in "God" in name, believe in a connection between all living things. To my mind that is not that different from saying God is in all of us. I don't think the idea of having the Holy Trinity or the inclusion of Mary is that different (in the basics, not the interpretation) of having a polytheistic or a duotheistic God/Goddess construction. I think everything has branched out from the basics and those branches are just people creating a structure that conforms to what they understand. Those understandings vary b/c people, while basically the same, grow up in different cultures and environments.



    I always try to follow the maxim that as long as they aren't hurting anyone, the beliefs of others have as much value as my own. That's why I've always had a problem with religions trying to convert or save others. It has too much of an "I'm right and you're wrong" vibe to it. IMO that type of thinking has led to too many wars, too much death and too much persecution. So while I commend those that say that they personally try not to force their beliefs on others, I question whether they are really adhering to the tenants of their own religion if it still preaches an "I'm right you're wrong" approach or "believe like me or you go to hell".

    I think this gets it back to what Pagan was talking about.
     
  32. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I find that Taoism makes a lot os sense to me as well. However, I do see God in the inter-connection of all living things. I don't really picture a grandfatherly type sitting on a cloud. I think that's just a human attempt to describe something that may be indescribable.
     
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  33. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    it would be beneficial to both sides if we all knew the facts. agreed
     
  34. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    It's not just knowing bro...it's listening. People like the ones who made that web page don't want to know the facts. They only want to know whatever it takes to dismantle other faiths.
     
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  35. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    Oviedo FL
    Ohio, You are correct..."one distinctive element of Christianity among the major religions is that we believe God came to us". That's not the only one but was probably the first to believe that.

    I don't think people would reject a faith system because someone couldn't answer the tough questions. If anything, I would hope they would seek out the answers themselves. I can only speak for myself when I say the curiosity doesn't go away and that's just what I did.

    Uncle Pagan...Maybe you should invite them in and try to convert them. :yes: -or- You could just leave them a copy of this thread. Maybe then they could see that other "Christians" consider that too pushey also.
     
    Ohiophinphan likes this.
  36. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Mar 22, 2008
    Newburgh, NY
    Gunn...we just don't do that. Wiccans don't proselytize. We believe that the Craft calls you, not the other way around. :wink2:
     
    gunn34 likes this.

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