Thoughts on the Dolphins/Ravens Bloodbath

If its true they asked Gase if he'd be on board to tank they should have this first round pick stripped as a punishment.

"Makados10 wrote:

Couple things...

I believe there was an article that said they approached Gase about the tank... err rebuild and he said no thank you and that's why he was shown the door.

No self respecting coach would sign up for this. You loose your player's trust and they'll ignore their coach. Flores will not survive the season.

Ross will fire Grier as the sacrifical lamb for the tank. He'll bring in a new regime for a "fresh" start with picks and cap room.

I do not believe Flores and his coaches are purposely trying to lose a game. We may be deficient of talent, but he is doing his best to win. The players need to own up too. They missed tackles, had blown assignments, fumbled, and dropped passes that negatively impacted the game also.

The problem Flores has is getting this team to believe in the direction of the team. When you lose consistently the players start to tune you out. Flores has to be able to keep motivating players even when they suck and that is the real challenge ahead.

"Rock Sexton wrote:

This will be my only comment this year.

What we witnessed today was a damn embarrassment. This is the lowest I've ever felt as a fan and I don't care how many draft picks we have next year nor the cap space. There is no way in hell what we saw out there benefits the future of this franchise. Are we really supposed to expect a coaching staff like this - who can't even get the best out of these players - coach up a class of 13+ rookies from next years draft? Are we really supposed to expect there will be a foundation for these incoming mass of rookies to build upon? The product on the field today was not healthy. It was not right. It was an abomination.

I literally wanted to tweet at their Twitter account "F-You" over and over again. But I didn't and frankly I'm tired of this clown show. They don't deserve my devotion anymore. God bless those of you who can subject yourselves to this for ............ quite honestly I don't know. What do you get out of this? You really like watching a Baltimore team not even back off when they're up 52-10 and attempting to run it down their throats again for another TD?

I need a break from them. I'm getting nothing out of this fanhood. Not even small pockets of life inspiration.

The lowest I felt as a Dolphin fan, was the 62-7 clubbing we got from the Jags... What's sad funny in a kind of way is, when I look back to my Dolphin fandom days is, we almost never meet the expectations people in- and outside the Dolphins have in the team, we kind of always underachieve. I didn't have many expectations for this season and yesterday they managed to even underachieve those... I'm really surprised the team looked this flat especially the defense which supposed to be the strength of our HC. Our Coach looked really in over is head yesterday and I really hoped we would have a coach for a change. I'm curious what kind of face/identity we're going to see in the next 15 games...

"cbrad wrote:

I don't think you get it. This is exactly what needs to happen to this franchise. Call it whatever you want, tanking or rebuilding, but we cannot be continuously mired in mediocrity for decades with QB's like Tannehill and coaches like Sparano, Philbin and Gase. You keep Gase and you stay 8-8. You keep Tannehill you stay 8-8 (all on average of course).

No, this is EXACTLY what was needed. So all this "I told you so" stuff is meaningless.

Now.. whether Flores is the right coach or not we'll see, but all these losses will be totally worth it if we pick #1 (or at worst #2) and get ourselves that franchise QB. It's not guaranteed that we succeed, but we'll have a LOT better chance of succeeding this way than by staying the course like you seem to have wanted us to do.

And btw.. great coach Gase lost a totally winnable game today with a QB that looks more like a bust than a franchise QB. Good riddance.

I get what your saying, but other teams have been able to right the ship without this horrendous display. Our problem has always been poor talent acquisition, and lack of vision moving forward. So our plan now is to scratch actual talent and rely on our talent acquisition...

Don't get me wrong, I hope it works, but we could end up with a horrible team now, and with a handful of bad picks (as we tend to do) another mediocre team in the future.

"Phins_to_Win wrote:

I get what your saying, but other teams have been able to right the ship without this horrendous display. Our problem has always been poor talent acquisition, and lack of vision moving forward. So our plan now is to scratch actual talent and rely on our talent acquisition...

Don't get me wrong, I hope it works, but we could end up with a horrible team now, and with a handful of bad picks (as we tend to do) another mediocre team in the future.

Absolutely true. It's an indictment of the GM's and coaches we've had, which ultimately leads back to the owner. If this tank job doesn't work then the real culprit is Ross. Nothing we can do about that though. I think that's when my enthusiasm will decline.

This is what a tank looks like. It will be ugly. Its one thing when fans discuss the tank conceptually, but to live it is a different experience. We just need to swallow it.

It's completely different for players though. You think these guys want to bust their brains and sacrifice their bodies for an effort they know is futile? No wonder so many are requesting trades. I guarantee everyone has already packed it in for the season after that.

And sadly, I think Flores is a bit in over his head. He is really just an LB coach masquerading as a HC right now. I never thought he had the traits that you need to be an effective HC. I feel bad for him because he seems like a good guy, but this season won't end well for him, even if he kind of knew what he was signing up for.

Kris Richard was my guy. I think he would have been the best longterm hire for this team.

We will end up with the #1 overall pick, but who knows if Tua even declares. I', pretty confident that Flores won't be here past the rookie QB's first year though.

"Phins_to_Win wrote:

I get what your saying, but other teams have been able to right the ship without this horrendous display. Our problem has always been poor talent acquisition, and lack of vision moving forward. So our plan now is to scratch actual talent and rely on our talent acquisition...

Don't get me wrong, I hope it works, but we could end up with a horrible team now, and with a handful of bad picks (as we tend to do) another mediocre team in the future.

Exactly right! This team is so bad it isn't even going to be competitive out there. The last part is the fatal flaw in all of this. All you guys supporting the whole tank thing and saying it's ok are failing to see or admit that we don't draft well. In particular on the offensive line. I keep asking in the last 15 years who have we drafted on the o line outside 1st round picks that have produced for us? Other teams do it all the time. But we can't seem to identify nor draft these positions unless it is a no brainer like Tunsil falling in our lap.

You guys are putting an awful lot of faith in a FO AND Scouting dept to suddenly do a 180 and bring good talent on board. I don't care what we got for Tunsil because you still have the same idiots pulling the lever on draft day.

"Tin Indian wrote:

Exactly right! This team is so bad it isn't even going to be competitive out there. The last part is the fatal flaw in all of this. All you guys supporting the whole tank thing and saying it's ok are failing to see or admit that we don't draft well. In particular on the offensive line. I keep asking in the last 15 years who have we drafted on the o line outside 1st round picks that have produced for us? Other teams do it all the time. But we can't seem to identify nor draft these positions unless it is a no brainer like Tunsil falling in our lap.

You guys are putting an awful lot of faith in a FO AND Scouting dept to suddenly do a 180 and bring good talent on board. I don't care what we got for Tunsil because you still have the same idiots pulling the lever on draft day.

The other side of that coin though is that the little bit of talent we did retain will eventually want out of Miami. We're essentially an expansion team at this point with 25% of our roster never playing a single NFL snap.

I hate to break it to our fans but we were traveling on this road already. I think they ripped the bandaids off which forced us to see the mess that is our organization now vs 3-4 years down the road.

My only issue was trading Tunsil. I get why they did it but I think it sent the wrong message to the players who were buying in to the long game. Whoever is our franchise QB, will need an OL to block for them. Tunsil was a good, young piece for that future OL.

"KeyFin wrote:

Gotcha, I'm not a "fan" because I don't like the idea of losing 16 games on purpose. Thanks for enlightening me. I personally hate "fans" who would even consider that a viable path.

As I said, this is what you asked for...hopefully you enjoy it!

Everyone needs to relax. NO ONE is happy about the prospect of losing every game. Has anyone been happy with being mired in mediocrity, at best, for the last 20 years? I don't think so. So now we're blowing it all up, and everyone is freaking out.

"resnor wrote:

Everyone needs to relax. NO ONE is happy about the prospect of losing every game. Has anyone been happy with being mired in mediocrity, at best, for the last 20 years? I don't think so. So now we're blowing it all up, and everyone is freaking out.

I just see things way differently than you do. What you call mediocrity, I call a competitive team that was close to the playoffs. Maybe not every year, but most of the time if the dominoes fell a little differently then we had a shot. But the main thing was that every single week, we'd come on this board and talk about how we had a chance next Sunday.

I mean, think about the past 5 years. How many games have you looked at on game-day and said, "There's zero chance we win?" Maybe at Gilette, the Minnesota game last season, every Ravens game and probably a few more? The vast majority of the time you had actual hope, which is the basis of sports to begin with.

What bothers me so deep is that we don't have that anymore- there's literally zero reason to watch other than team pride. This will likely go down as the worst team in the history of the NFL and they'll talk about it for decades...just like the Champagne Toast each season. It's a major black eye on the organization and we're doing all this on the hopes that Grier picks the right QB and can rebuild this team with young players- even though what we saw on the field yesterday tells us that he clearly has zero clue. And then we also have to hope that Flores and his staff can develop that talent- even though our very solid secondary from last season looked like high school players yesterday.

None of it adds up to trusting Grier and Flores to figuring things out.

You talked about mediocre like it's a bad thing- but most of us will yearn for those 8-8 seasons as this plays out. It could easily be 5 years before we're back to 8-8 again.

"resnor wrote:

Everyone needs to relax. NO ONE is happy about the prospect of losing every game. Has anyone been happy with being mired in mediocrity, at best, for the last 20 years? I don't think so. So now we're blowing it all up, and everyone is freaking out.

It's not the W-L that I'm freaking out about, personally. It's that the team didn't even look ready to play the first game of the NFL season yesterday. That is a worrisome first impression from this coaching staff.

"SkapePhin wrote:

This is what a tank looks like. It will be ugly. Its one thing when fans discuss the tank conceptually, but to live it is a different experience. We just need to swallow it.

It's completely different for players though. You think these guys want to bust their brains and sacrifice their bodies for an effort they know is futile? No wonder so many are requesting trades. I guarantee everyone has already packed it in for the season after that.

And sadly, I think Flores is a bit in over his head. He is really just an LB coach masquerading as a HC right now. I never thought he had the traits that you need to be an effective HC. I feel bad for him because he seems like a good guy, but this season won't end well for him, even if he kind of knew what he was signing up for.

Kris Richard was my guy. I think he would have been the best longterm hire for this team.

We will end up with the #1 overall pick, but who knows if Tua even declares. I', pretty confident that Flores won't be here past the rookie QB's first year though.

Holy shit where the hell have you been??!?!??!?!?!g

"Fin D wrote:

Holy **** where the hell have you been??!?!??!?!?!g

The "other" site was down for a bit, and just needed to dump my thoughts on yesterday's massacre somewhere. :p

"KeyFin wrote:

I just see things way differently than you do. What you call mediocrity, I call a competitive team that was close to the playoffs. Maybe not every year, but most of the time if the dominoes fell a little differently then we had a shot. But the main thing was that every single week, we'd come on this board and talk about how we had a chance next Sunday.

I mean, think about the past 5 years. How many games have you looked at on game-day and said, "There's zero chance we win?" Maybe at Gilette, the Minnesota game last season, every Ravens game and probably a few more? The vast majority of the time you had actual hope, which is the basis of sports to begin with.

What bothers me so deep is that we don't have that anymore- there's literally zero reason to watch other than team pride. This will likely go down as the worst team in the history of the NFL and they'll talk about it for decades...just like the Champagne Toast each season. It's a major black eye on the organization and we're doing all this on the hopes that Grier picks the right QB and can rebuild this team with young players- even though what we saw on the field yesterday tells us that he clearly has zero clue. And then we also have to hope that Flores and his staff can develop that talent- even though our very solid secondary from last season looked like high school players yesterday.

None of it adds up to trusting Grier and Flores to figuring things out.

You talked about mediocre like it's a bad thing- but most of us will yearn for those 8-8 seasons as this plays out. It could easily be 5 years before we're back to 8-8 again.

Differences of opinion of course, but I will never yearn for perpetual mediocrity (i.e., 8-8 seasons on average each year). I know what that feels like, constantly being reminded that we're not good enough to make the playoffs or go deep in them, yet not bad enough to get a franchise QB with an early draft pick.

Sorry that was torture for me. What's happening now isn't psychologically problematic for me because I see a multi-year plan here. There was no such "plan" before except to hope that somehow this or that extra FA and extra time with the coach would produce a winning culture.

"KeyFin wrote:

I just see things way differently than you do. What you call mediocrity, I call a competitive team that was close to the playoffs. Maybe not every year, but most of the time if the dominoes fell a little differently then we had a shot. But the main thing was that every single week, we'd come on this board and talk about how we had a chance next Sunday.

I mean, think about the past 5 years. How many games have you looked at on game-day and said, "There's zero chance we win?" Maybe at Gilette, the Minnesota game last season, every Ravens game and probably a few more? The vast majority of the time you had actual hope, which is the basis of sports to begin with.

What bothers me so deep is that we don't have that anymore- there's literally zero reason to watch other than team pride. This will likely go down as the worst team in the history of the NFL and they'll talk about it for decades...just like the Champagne Toast each season. It's a major black eye on the organization and we're doing all this on the hopes that Grier picks the right QB and can rebuild this team with young players- even though what we saw on the field yesterday tells us that he clearly has zero clue. And then we also have to hope that Flores and his staff can develop that talent- even though our very solid secondary from last season looked like high school players yesterday.

None of it adds up to trusting Grier and Flores to figuring things out.

You talked about mediocre like it's a bad thing- but most of us will yearn for those 8-8 seasons as this plays out. It could easily be 5 years before we're back to 8-8 again.

It could easily be a season or two. Let's say we draft Tua and he is the real deal. We use the rest of our picks and the bevy of FA money we will have and snag a legit edge rusher and build an average OL. We will likely see a surge just as we are likely to see the Bills and Jets throw in the towel, and perhaps Brady and BB too. Literally nobody will give a shit about this season if that happens.

Nobody is really talking about the Browns going 0-16 because they have hype and hope. Nobody cares that the Astros were historically the worst baseball team ever once they won a World Series.

I mean, I get that we weren't terrible, but look at New England, KC, Ravens if Lamar is for real, Rams ... we aren't in that league. We weren't particularly close. Gase took his talents to the Jets and tripped all over his dick. We were absolutely as insignificant then as we are now, except we were in for several seasons of a slow decline and then back to the 1-15 years. It's the same cycle we have been in since Marino left, and I think most of us were tired of it.

This year is gonna suck, and maybe it won't work, but we are trying something new and there is an overaching plan other than grasping at straws and signing mediocre players to overpriced contracts only to watch as we stomped into the mud when we play an actually decent team again and again.

I get it, you like winning and being competitive to a degree. You were saying we could even hope for a .500 season this year. It's tough to adjust expectation like that, and losing sucks. Nobody likes losing, but I think some just see the light at the end of the tunnel clearer whereas others just see the darkness. But it is what it is. You either accept it, or you find something else. Just breathe man.

"Surfs Up 99 wrote:

I do not believe Flores and his coaches are purposely trying to lose a game. We may be deficient of talent, but he is doing his best to win. The players need to own up too. They missed tackles, had blown assignments, fumbled, and dropped passes that negatively impacted the game also.

I knew this was going to happen. Someone was going to try and talk meaningful sense around here. Shame on you.

"cbrad wrote:

Differences of opinion of course, but I will never yearn for perpetual mediocrity (i.e., 8-8 seasons on average each year). I know what that feels like, constantly being reminded that we're not good enough to make the playoffs or go deep in them, yet not bad enough to get a franchise QB with an early draft pick.

Sorry that was torture for me. What's happening now isn't psychologically problematic for me because I see a multi-year plan here. There was no such "plan" before except to hope that somehow this or that extra FA and extra time with the coach would produce a winning culture.

I understand this viewpoint, I just hope it doesn't cave in on itself when the young players that are supposed to be the pillars of this rebuild lose faith in the coach in his first season. Then we'll need 3 years of 10+ draft selections, and the success rate of those picks will be even more magnified.

"texanphinatic wrote:

It could easily be a season or two. Let's say we draft Tua and he is the real deal. We use the rest of our picks and the bevy of FA money we will have and snag a legit edge rusher and build an average OL. We will likely see a surge just as we are likely to see the Bills and Jets throw in the towel, and perhaps Brady and BB too. Literally nobody will give a **** about this season if that happens.

Nobody is really talking about the Browns going 0-16 because they have hype and hope. Nobody cares that the Astros were historically the worst baseball team ever once they won a World Series.

I mean, I get that we weren't terrible, but look at New England, KC, Ravens if Lamar is for real, Rams ... we aren't in that league. We weren't particularly close. Gase took his talents to the Jets and tripped all over his dick. We were absolutely as insignificant then as we are now, except we were in for several seasons of a slow decline and then back to the 1-15 years. It's the same cycle we have been in since Marino left, and I think most of us were tired of it.

This year is gonna suck, and maybe it won't work, but we are trying something new and there is an overaching plan other than grasping at straws and signing mediocre players to overpriced contracts only to watch as we stomped into the mud when we play an actually decent team again and again.

I get it, you like winning and being competitive to a degree. You were saying we could even hope for a .500 season this year. It's tough to adjust expectation like that, and losing sucks. Nobody likes losing, but I think some just see the light at the end of the tunnel clearer whereas others just see the darkness. But it is what it is. You either accept it, or you find something else. Just breathe man.

But, but, but...i’ve been a fan since the Stone Age, watched every game on TV or a sports bar, and spent a small fortune on beer and pub food. I paid my dues. dag nabbit! I deserve a championship!

"cbrad wrote:

Differences of opinion of course, but I will never yearn for perpetual mediocrity (i.e., 8-8 seasons on average each year). I know what that feels like, constantly being reminded that we're not good enough to make the playoffs or go deep in them, yet not bad enough to get a franchise QB with an early draft pick.

Sorry that was torture for me. What's happening now isn't psychologically problematic for me because I see a multi-year plan here. There was no such "plan" before except to hope that somehow this or that extra FA and extra time with the coach would produce a winning culture.

I understand your viewpoint, but it's not like we don't know why those 7, 8, or 9 win teams didn't make the playoffs. Last season Tannehill imploded behind that injured line. The year before, Cutler was obviously the wrong choice to lead the team...plus we lost our home field for the first half of the season. We can see clear mistakes and obstacles that ultimately cost us wins, and that's the GM's job to address them directly. I 100% believe in holding people accountable and growing as an organization from within.

Why are the Pats great? Sure, they draft well, but the biggest factor is consistency. They do the same thing with the same team leaders, year in and year out. Some of Belichek's staff have been there 15+ years and that alone is a massive advantage. We haven't had that since Shula and guess what- we were a great team for decades under him. But it was also the owners, the GM, etc. plus a guy by the name of Marino. I personally think you need more than just a franchise QB- you need the front office and coaching leadership as well.

Again, it's fine that we disagree...I just can't jump on board with an intentional 0-16 season. As a former athlete it's unfathomable to me to be put in that position knowing that all my hard work ultimately means nothing. Why even train? Why even try? That's what will start setting in over the next month or so. And the players are going to turn on Flores even if he's actually a pretty good coach.

I just don't see it as viable when so many people are getting screwed over in the process (fans, players, etc).

"texanphinatic wrote:

It could easily be a season or two. Let's say we draft Tua and he is the real deal. We use the rest of our picks and the bevy of FA money we will have and snag a legit edge rusher and build an average OL. We will likely see a surge just as we are likely to see the Bills and Jets throw in the towel, and perhaps Brady and BB too. Literally nobody will give a **** about this season if that happens.

Nobody is really talking about the Browns going 0-16 because they have hype and hope. Nobody cares that the Astros were historically the worst baseball team ever once they won a World Series.

I mean, I get that we weren't terrible, but look at New England, KC, Ravens if Lamar is for real, Rams ... we aren't in that league. We weren't particularly close. Gase took his talents to the Jets and tripped all over his dick. We were absolutely as insignificant then as we are now, except we were in for several seasons of a slow decline and then back to the 1-15 years. It's the same cycle we have been in since Marino left, and I think most of us were tired of it.

This year is gonna suck, and maybe it won't work, but we are trying something new and there is an overaching plan other than grasping at straws and signing mediocre players to overpriced contracts only to watch as we stomped into the mud when we play an actually decent team again and again.

I get it, you like winning and being competitive to a degree. You were saying we could even hope for a .500 season this year. It's tough to adjust expectation like that, and losing sucks. Nobody likes losing, but I think some just see the light at the end of the tunnel clearer whereas others just see the darkness. But it is what it is. You either accept it, or you find something else. Just breathe man.

Yeah, I'm good...I actually started watching college football this year so that will fill in some gaps. And you're right, they could be competitive again after a few seasons- but the goal is 10+ wins, right? (AKA, playoff bound) It's just as likely that they won't be though. As you've seen, there are several here who believe Tua is a bust waiting to happen because he has amazing protection against inferior teams. The truth is, we just don't know but we're risking everything to find out.

"KeyFin wrote:

Again, it's fine that we disagree...I just can't jump on board with an intentional 0-16 season.

1-15 at worst dude. Can't go into the history books with a different kind of "perfect" season.

"cbrad wrote:

1-15 at worst dude. Can't go into the history books with a different kind of "perfect" season.

Well, we signed 15 players this past week, so there's a chance we can assemble somewhat of an offensive line in the weeks to come. The secondary should catch their breath and figure out a few things as well- and we know we have plenty of weapons to score if the QB can get enough time to throw it. I still don't know if that will be enough to beat a bad team like Washington though- even if everything clicks.

LOL, for the run game...I was 100% wrong on that. We could literally trade all our RB's today and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. Dieter may have graded out well but he's clearly not enough by himself to create a hole.

"KeyFin wrote:

I understand your viewpoint, but it's not like we don't know why those 7, 8, or 9 win teams didn't make the playoffs. Last season Tannehill imploded behind that injured line. The year before, Cutler was obviously the wrong choice to lead the team...plus we lost our home field for the first half of the season. We can see clear mistakes and obstacles that ultimately cost us wins, and that's the GM's job to address them directly. I 100% believe in holding people accountable and growing as an organization from within.

Why are the Pats great? Sure, they draft well, but the biggest factor is consistency. They do the same thing with the same team leaders, year in and year out. Some of Belichek's staff have been there 15+ years and that alone is a massive advantage. We haven't had that since Shula and guess what- we were a great team for decades under him. But it was also the owners, the GM, etc. plus a guy by the name of Marino. I personally think you need more than just a franchise QB- you need the front office and coaching leadership as well.

Again, it's fine that we disagree...I just can't jump on board with an intentional 0-16 season. As a former athlete it's unfathomable to me to be put in that position knowing that all my hard work ultimately means nothing. Why even train? Why even try? That's what will start setting in over the next month or so. And the players are going to turn on Flores even if he's actually a pretty good coach.

I just don't see it as viable when so many people are getting screwed over in the process (fans, players, etc).

I hear you man. We were maintaining an 8 and 8 record while continuing to have lack luster drafts and bad Free agent choices. I personally don't believe we were "stuck" on a mediocre treadmill, I think we had people in place that were responsible for acquiring talent that just seemed clueless, but we always seemed like a good draft class and a decent free agency away from putting a contender together. I go back through the drafts we have had over the years and its really astounding how many misses we had at supposedly safe draft positions. Then when you look at how many free agents came here that failed to workout, or immediately got injured before they even got a chance... its mind blowing that we stayed in the 8 and 8 class for so long.

I'm willing to give this "rebuild" a chance, but I'm not happy about it. And as far as the players wanting to revolt, I agree with them. They shouldn't be asked to put their bodies on the line for this type of a tank approach. I suspect we are going to lose a lot of our young talent taking this route, which will lead to more holes to fill... at some point we will have more holes then we have precious draft picks... and then its right back to the drawing board.

For the record I think that Baltimore did the right thing by embarrassing us this weekend. Its what you do when another team isn't respecting the game. I suspect it won't be the last ego punch we take.