Thoughts on Day 1 and 2 overall???

PFF's rundown:

Day 1: The fact that Miami didn’t have to move up from its fifth overall pick to secure Tua Tagovailoa is a huge win. Even with the injury, Tagovailoa was the second-best prospect on the PFF Big Board and QB2 over Justin Herbert by a mile. With his accuracy, pocket presence, ability to withstand pressure, decision-making and acumen for extending plays, Tagovailoa is every bit of a franchise quarterback. He was the only quarterback to post back-to-back elite PFF passing grades in the past two years. When your biggest con is that you played in with an elite supporting cast that had potentially four first-round wide receivers, you are clearly doing something right.

Austin Jackson was 94th on the PFF Big Board and was taken 18th overall. This was one of the biggest reaches we have seen in the first round of the draft. Jackson is going to be a project for Miami, both technically and physically. His play strength was not that of a first-round pick. He got exposed by NFL-caliber edge rushers in college — when he went up against Julian Okwara, A.J. Epenesa and Bradlee Anae, Jackson gave up a combined eight pressures in those games.

While it wasn’t on the level of Jackson, taking Noah Igbinoghene in Round 1 was another reach on the Dolphins’ part. He was 55th on the PFF Big Board with poor ball skills and is still learning to play the position. That being said, this is a great fit for Igbinoghene. He played a great amount of press coverage in 2019 and has the athleticism and overall physical tools to develop into a solid corner, but you're drafting on his potential at that point.

“Noah Igbinoghene is still learning the position and needs to improve his play at the catch point, but his match-and-mirror ability and deep speed are rare — he has special movement skills teams will covet early.” – PFF’s Austin Gayle prior to the 2020 NFL Draft

Day 2: Continuing on the trend of their two first-round picks, Day 2 was full of reaches once again for the Miami Dolphins. All three of their picks on Day 2 were picked over 50 spots ahead of their rank on the PFF Big Board.

Robert Hunt was a nasty run-blocker for Louisiana and owned a solid 86.0 grade in that facet of play. Miami general manager Chris Grier said he’ll compete for a starting job at both right tackle and right guard, but we believe the best thing for him is to kick inside. PFF’s Mike Renner actually thinks he has the size and power to be a future Pro Bowl guard. One of the concerns we had with Hunt — he slotted in at 89th on our board — was his out-of-control play style and the fact that he was barely tested in pass protection. And he did this all against relatively weak competition.

As for Raekwon Davis, he was just 115th on the PFF Big Board. He has all the length you could possibly want on the inside and is the definition of a run-stuffer, as he has put up run-defense grades of 87.0 or higher in each of the past three seasons. Run-stuffers along the interior don’t generate enough value to be taken this early on Day 2, though, and there isn’t much at all in the way of pass-rushing moves or quickness that leads you to believe he’ll ever be an impact player as a pass-rusher.

The biggest reach of them all, though, was taking Brandon Jones 70th overall — he was just 182nd on the PFF Big Board. Whenever he was playing free safety, Jones was a problem within the Texas defense, as he was exposed far more than he should have been. He might be a better option at slot corner than deep safety in Miami’s defense, which doesn’t help their need at the latter.

Day 3: Miami had some reaches on Day 2 but got incredible value on Day 3 with Curtis Weaver, who was the 26th-best prospect on the PFF Big Board and EDGE3. Weaver had great production in the past two years, posting pass-rushing grades above 92.0 in each and combining to form a win rate that was three percentage points higher than any edge rusher. Weaver may lack burst, but his elite power and bend make up for that. The Dolphins got a first-round talent in the fifth round.

Draft Grade: A-

Like I've said repeatedly here, I don't see why they reached so often instead of moving back and picking up extra draft capital, either this year or next. It's like they had very little understanding of where the players they wanted were expected to go and how they could select them at later spots. It seems like the lazy and unintelligent approach to taking developmental players with high ceilings.

"The Guy wrote:

PFF's rundown:

Like I've said repeatedly here, I don't see why they reached so often instead of moving back and picking up extra draft capital, either this year or next. It's like they had very little understanding of where the players they wanted were expected to go and how they could select them at later spots. It seems like the lazy and unintelligent approach to taking developmental players with high ceilings.

I disagree about all those players being reaches. I mean, according to PFF's board they may have been, but PFF's boared isn't the end-all-be-all.

Anyhow, even when PFF talks about reaching for a player, they include positive things. And at the end of the day, they gave the Dolphins an A-....

"danmarino wrote:

I disagree about all those players being reaches. I mean, according to PFF's board they may have been, but PFF's boared isn't the end-all-be-all.

Anyhow, even when PFF talks about reaching for a player, they include positive things. And at the end of the day, they gave the Dolphins an A-....

People say Austin Jackson is a reach. We do not know if he would have made it to 26. Plus, who cares if they are a reach? If they work out, in two years no one would be saying the Dolphins could have had him later. They would say that he was the perfect pick.

If Tom Brady was a first round pick, no one would be talking about how much he was a reach.

"danmarino wrote:

I disagree about all those players being reaches. I mean, according to PFF's board they may have been, but PFF's boared isn't the end-all-be-all.

Anyhow, even when PFF talks about reaching for a player, they include positive things. And at the end of the day, they gave the Dolphins an A-....

In the end, it's only a reach if your guy bombs and doesnt develop.

I do think reaches exist. For instance you cant convince me EJ Manuel wasnt a reach entirely based on the position he plays and a draft class lacking at the position.

At the same time though, to me it's only a reach if the player fails and the alternatives you had on your board succeed.

If we drafted a player a full round earlier than projected but he plays well, in the end its justified.

We dont know where players will fall, but fir example if someone took Jalen Hurts #1 overall, is that not a reach?

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

In the end, it's only a reach if your guy bombs and doesnt develop.

I do think reaches exist. For instance you cant convince me EJ Manuel wasnt a reach entirely based on the position he plays and a draft class lacking at the position.

At the same time though, to me it's only a reach if the player fails and the alternatives you had on your board succeed.

If we drafted a player a full round earlier than projected but he plays well, in the end its justified.

We dont know where players will fall, but fir example if someone took Jalen Hurts #1 overall, is that not a reach?

If he becomes a hall of fame quarterback everyone would talk about how genius the Bengals were for drafting him #1.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

If he becomes a hall of fame quarterback everyone would talk about how genius the Bengals were for drafting him #1.

You can look at it that way and to an extent I agree. Humor me though for a second and try and look at it from the other view, not agree necessarily but just look.

Yes it would be genius, but it would be double genius to pick up a player like Chase Young at #1 overall and take Hurts somewhere after that.

Even though we may not know the board of every team, there is at least some consensus on a lot of players where you have a feeling where they "should" go or where the earliest you see them off the board is.

Again like I said it's only a true reach if the player performs to the standard expectations of him and not his draft slot.

So if Hurts went #1 overall and succeeded the pick would be a success, but would it be the best way to acquire that player?

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

You can look at it that way and to an extent I agree. Humor me though for a second and try and look at it from the other view, not agree necessarily but just look.

Yes it would be genius, but it would be double genius to pick up a player like Chase Young at #1 overall and take Hurts somewhere after that.

Even though we may not know the board of every team, there is at least some consensus on a lot of players where you have a feeling where they "should" go or where the earliest you see them off the board is.

Again like I said it's only a true reach if the player performs to the standard expectations of him and not his draft slot.

So if Hurts went #1 overall and succeeded the pick would be a success, but would it be the best way to acquire that player?

However, this talk only exists before the draft and after the draft.

When the season starts the term "reach" is only used when a player is failing. If the player succeeds then it looks to be a genius pick. If Hurts goes #1 overall and becomes a NFL hall of famer, how are we supposed to know that the Bengals were the only team that saw that?

TBH I tend to look at the draft in a way that if you hit on a later round player, while lucky and good it is a failure of the scouting/drafting department because if each player before isn't that good, then they should have drafted the person earlier.

To answer your question, if Hurts went #1 and became a Hall of Fame player, that would be the best way to acquire that player. If they pick Hurts with the second round pick and a player before and Hurts became a Hall of Fame player then I see that as "getting lucky." Because you should have drafted him #1 as he is the best player.

IMO, the Seahawks got lucky and should have drafted Russell Wilson with their first round pick. I don't see that as a success.

It is like if someone is doing the stock market and becomes rich on a penny stock that just happens to blow up. They are not a good investor, they just got lucky.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

However, this talk only exists before the draft and after the draft.

When the season starts the term "reach" is only used when a player is failing. If the player succeeds then it looks to be a genius pick. If Hurts goes #1 overall and becomes a NFL hall of famer, how are we supposed to know that the Bengals were the only team that saw that?

TBH I tend to look at the draft in a way that if you hit on a later round player, while lucky and good it is a failure of the scouting/drafting department because if each player before isn't that good, then they should have drafted the person earlier.

To answer your question, if Hurts went #1 and became a Hall of Fame player, that would be the best way to acquire that player. If they pick Hurts with the second round pick and a player before and Hurts became a Hall of Fame player then I see that as "getting lucky." Because you should have drafted him #1 as he is the best player.

IMO, the Seahawks got lucky and should have drafted Russell Wilson with their first round pick. I don't see that as a success.

It is like if someone is doing the stock market and becomes rich on a penny stock that just happens to blow up. They are not a good investor, they just got lucky.

Like I said I dont necessarily think you're wrong. I think it's a valid way to look at it.

I just believe in trying to gain advantage by maximizing the value of each acquisition.

I do agree late round players are a crap shoot and tend to be lucky, but I guess my cutoff for that would be more like after the 3rd round.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

Like I said I dont necessarily think you're wrong. I think it's a valid way to look at it.

I just believe in trying to gain advantage by maximizing the value of each acquisition.

I do agree late round players are a crap shoot and tend to be lucky, but I guess my cutoff for that would be more like after the 3rd round.

I believe that as well. However, I see maximizing the value of each acquisition is based on what the player actually does.

If Austin Jackson becomes a Hall of Fame player, how do we know that the Dolphins staff is the only team that saw that potential from 19 to 25?

Once a player is selected, we do not know what exactly is the maximum value of each acquisition, we can only speculate. Three years down the road, none of us care. People always say that they look like a genius for picking the player where they did.

"danmarino wrote:

I disagree about all those players being reaches. I mean, according to PFF's board they may have been, but PFF's boared isn't the end-all-be-all.

Anyhow, even when PFF talks about reaching for a player, they include positive things. And at the end of the day, they gave the Dolphins an A-....

I would give them an A- as well, simply because they got a franchise quarterback at #5 overall, when that player should've been selected no later than #2 overall. That's how important the quarterback position is, and how difficult it is to get one of Tua's stature at #5 overall.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Another thing. DanMarino and Hitman8 both think Iggy is a reach.

DanMarino is like, "In my opinion he is a reach." I don't agree, but not worth arguing.

Hitman8 is like, "No one had him in the first round. Everyone things he is a reach. Horrible pick." I don't agree, however, blatantly wrong. Using hyperbole to try to prove a point is just annoying.

You just made up that quote and attributed it to me. That is not what I said. Here is my actual quote and grade from earlier in this thread:

"1c. Noah Igbinoghene, another reach. I dont think he is better than Fulton for example, and I would have drafted a different position with this pick, or better yet moved up a bit to get Ruiz. Noah is a slot corner, not the position you should be drafting first round. Grade C+."

What dan and the other homers here do is grade the picks on a massive curve and put the most positive spin they can on it while going around shiting on anybody who thinks it was a bad pick. They act as if they are spin doctors on the dolphins payroll.

I hope every pick works out and I am wrong. I have been a diehard dolphins fan since I was a kid, the only time I ever shed tears for a sporting event was when the dolphins lost the '94 playoff game in the last minute against the chargers.

But we have been through too many terrible drafts and losing seasons to not be sceptical and critical of things. I will not grade them on a curve, I am not going to spin it into a positive if I don't really like the pick.

I give my honest assessment, and it is NOT always negative. I liked 4 of the picks we made in this draft and was neutral on a couple of others.

"hitman8 wrote:

You just made up that quote and attributed it to me. That is not what I said. Here is my actual quote and grade from earlier in this thread:

"1c. Noah Igbinoghene, another reach. I dont think he is better than Fulton for example, and I would have drafted a different position with this pick, or better yet moved up a bit to get Ruiz. Noah is a slot corner, not the position you should be drafting first round. Grade C+."

What dan and the other homers here do is grade the picks on a massive curve and put the most positive spin they can on it while going around ****ing on anybody who thinks it was a bad pick. They act as if they are spin doctors on the dolphins payroll.

I hope every pick works out and I am wrong. I have been a diehard dolphins fan since I was a kid, the only time I ever shed tears for a sporting event was when the dolphins lost the '94 playoff game in the last minute against the chargers.

But we have been through too many terrible drafts and losing seasons to not be sceptical and critical of things. I will not grade them on a curve, I am not going to spin it into a positive if I don't really like the pick.

I give my honest assessment, and it is NOT always negative. I liked 4 of the picks we made in this draft and was neutral on a couple of others.

The term "like" before the quote specifically means that you didn't say those exact words.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

The term "like" before the quote specifically means that you didn't say those exact words.

Yeah well it is not anywhere near "like" what I actually wrote.

"danmarino wrote:

Good write up. Just to touch on one player, Davis, I don't "hate" the pick. I think his problem is he needs motivation. His first year playing in Alabama he was a monster. He dropped off in production due to, IMO, relying more on athletic skill than any mental preparation. If Flores can reach this kid he has the ability to be an All-Pro. Hopefully that happens, and they think they can reach him...I'm concerned, but don't hate the pick.

I used to tell my kids all the time to surround themselves with like-minded friends, so they don't fall in with the wrong crowd. I hope Davis's new surroundings (Flores, those in the DT room, etc) will help him get back on track so that he reaches his full potential.

"hitman8 wrote:

Yeah well it is not anywhere near "like" what I actually wrote.

Yes it is. You specifically challenged people to find mock drafts where he was in the first round.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Yes it is. You specifically challenged people to find mock drafts where he was in the first round.

That was in the main draft thread, in the heat of the moment right after the pick. I had not seen any mock drafts with him in the first round, only a few analysts with maybe some inside info had him as a potential 1st rounder.

My actual grade for the pick is what I quoted. If you are going to quote Dan's grade then you should compare it to my actual grade, not a made up quote.

"hitman8 wrote:

That was in the main draft thread, in the heat of the moment right after the pick. I had not seen any mock drafts with him in the first round, only a few analysts with maybe some inside info had him as a potential 1st rounder.

And I was just talking about how I felt I wanted to respond to one and why I wouldn't respond to the other.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

In the end, it's only a reach if your guy bombs and doesnt develop.

I do think reaches exist. For instance you cant convince me EJ Manuel wasnt a reach entirely based on the position he plays and a draft class lacking at the position.

At the same time though, to me it's only a reach if the player fails and the alternatives you had on your board succeed.

If we drafted a player a full round earlier than projected but he plays well, in the end its justified.

We dont know where players will fall, but fir example if someone took Jalen Hurts #1 overall, is that not a reach?

Not if he pans out. Someone on here has been arguing that if you believe in a player, you take him, don't worry about position in the draft. I mean, you don't take a kicker in the first who you could have had in the 5th. But look at Wilson. Every team passed on him like 3 times...but in reality his performance and production says he should have gone top of the first.

Had he gone there, people would have said he was a reach. But if you thought he was the best QB in that draft, you take him in the first.

"resnor wrote:

Not if he pans out. Someone on here has been arguing that if you believe in a player, you take him, don't worry about position in the draft. I mean, you don't take a kicker in the first who you could have had in the 5th. But look at Wilson. Every team passed on him like 3 times...but in reality his performance and production says he should have gone top of the first.

Had he gone there, people would have said he was a reach. But if you thought he was the best QB in that draft, you take him in the first.

It's about maximizing value. I mean the concept of reaching is as old as drafting. I don't think you can rationalize that it is now irrelevant because the dolphins seemed to reach on some picks.

"hitman8 wrote:

It's about maximizing value. I mean the concept of reaching is as old as drafting. I don't think you can rationalize that it is now irrelevant because the dolphins seemed to reach on some picks.

I don't think it was ever relevant. It is only something that fans talk about. It has nothing to do with being a Dolphin fan or not.

"resnor wrote:

Not if he pans out. Someone on here has been arguing that if you believe in a player, you take him, don't worry about position in the draft. I mean, you don't take a kicker in the first who you could have had in the 5th. But look at Wilson. Every team passed on him like 3 times...but in reality his performance and production says he should have gone top of the first.

Had he gone there, people would have said he was a reach. But if you thought he was the best QB in that draft, you take him in the first.

Wilson didnt go in the first though. Sure he should have, but let's play a hypothetical.

If you and only you had hindsight, noone else drafting does, and you know Wilson will be available with your 3rd rounder before the Seahawks take him, would you take him in the first?

I wouldnt, because I know I could get 2 players PLUS the guy I covet with hindsight.

The actual draft is sort of like this but without the use of hindsight and some risk taking.

In my situation for example, if the Bengals did value Hurts as the best QB I doubt they take him #1. The reality is they would most likely trade down.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

Wilson didnt go in the first though. Sure he should have, but let's play a hypothetical.

If you and only you had hindsight, noone else drafting does, and you know Wilson will be available with your 3rd rounder before the Seahawks take him, would you take him in the first?

I wouldnt, because I know I could get 2 players PLUS the guy I covet with hindsight.

The actual draft is sort of like this but without the use if hindsight and some risk taking.

In my situation for example, if the Bengals did value Hurts as the best QB I doubt they take him #1. The reality is they would most likely trade down.

That is the problem with this valuation idea. You have to use hindsight.

Right now in hindsight drafting Curtis Weaver before the 6th round would have been over drafting. However, before the draft getting him in the third round, everyone would say that is a great value.

Same with Josh Jones. Drafting him at 56 would have been over drafting, however, most people think he would have been a good value at 56.

We only know in hindsight.

We also only know in the future if that is the case. If Austin Jackson becomes a great left tackle, Miami were smart to draft him. No one is going to say, "Well Miami could have had him at 26."

How do I know? Because every time we look at the draft three years ago, we don't talk about reaching based on where people are. We talk about how well they did by how well players do.

Reaching and valuation only come up around the draft that it happens.

Also when people do draft redos a few years later, the valuation of that year is not even considered. Russell Wilson isn't a second round pick, he is generally put as the first pick of that draft. If not first, he is top 3.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

Wilson didnt go in the first though. Sure he should have, but let's play a hypothetical.

If you and only you had hindsight, noone else drafting does, and you know Wilson will be available with your 3rd rounder before the Seahawks take him, would you take him in the first?

I wouldnt, because I know I could get 2 players PLUS the guy I covet with hindsight.

The actual draft is sort of like this but without the use of hindsight and some risk taking.

In my situation for example, if the Bengals did value Hurts as the best QB I doubt they take him #1. The reality is they would most likely trade down.

I understand he didn't go in the first. He didn't go in the second. 74 picks happened in the third, before he was taken. So, every team had the wrong evaluation on him, and undervalued him.

Of course, now you start seeing shorter or mobile QBs valued higher because of Wilson.

"resnor wrote:

Not if he pans out. Someone on here has been arguing that if you believe in a player, you take him, don't worry about position in the draft. I mean, you don't take a kicker in the first who you could have had in the 5th. But look at Wilson. Every team passed on him like 3 times...but in reality his performance and production says he should have gone top of the first.

Had he gone there, people would have said he was a reach. But if you thought he was the best QB in that draft, you take him in the first.

I am all about targeting players who fit your prospect profile and team vision. I don't know how they rate guys, but I think Flores is looking for those with a certain attitude. On paper, one guy might be slightly better than the next. However, Flores might actually prefer the next guy down because the player might have the attitude he wants, such as being a team-first guy instead of a me-first guy.