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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jdallen1222, Nov 22, 2020.
Not worth anything but silly.
Well, there is a way we could leap frog to the number one draft pick but...it would cost way too much!
You trade Tua to Jacksonville plus you trade the two first round draft picks we have in exchange for the number one pick.
That would be the stupidest thing we could ever do though. I'm not sold on Tagovailoa but I'm also smart enough to know we have way too many holes on the offense that need filling as well.
Not strictly true, neither Herbert or Burrow were rehabbing a serious hip surgery. They also had better receiving talent to throw to even though the teams aren't as good
I think its going to take more than two first rd picks and an unproven QB for that #1 pick.
Lawrence is considered a "generational talent" wich I disagree but from all this hype I think his price will he really high.
I don’t think Jax and a new coach are going to give it up. The trade value chart says our 2 1st rounders would get it done but I think they’d want much more. And not worth it IMO
Some observations on why the dolphins should go for a QB in the draft:
1. Tua makes everyone in the team worse. Even the defense is starting to play wjth no energy when Tua is in there.
2. Tua is slow, has a weak arm and can't pass accurately beyond 10 yards. We saw the many Ints when he attempted to go deep.
3. Tua never adjusts his performance. He can play consistently bad from start to end. We saw it against the Rams, Broncos, Raiders and Bills.
I think you make some good points but that just isn’t going to happen. You don’t walk away from your #5 pick QB in the most challenging year in NFL history with what he had around him. Not going to make excuses because Fitz came in and was able to do things that clearly Tua couldn’t. But just need to have realistic expectations that Miami isn’t drafted a QB with our first rounders.
That is the sad part. The Dolphins may not give themselves a chance to explore an option for a QB in the draft. I guess the only hope is to rely on Flores past experience under Bellichick and see if he can detect a Tom Brady in those 6th or 7th rounds.
Look, I’ve repeatedly stated I’m not sold on Tagovailoa. If anyone looks up or remembers my post history prior to last year’s draft I cautioned about drafting him, or any other quarterback for that matter. With that being said...
Drafting an NFL ready rookie quarterback is a craps shoot. Coaches, analysts, owners and even fans are often wrong about a player. Not only are they wrong, they’re often more wrong in their approach to said drafted quarterback. Said quarterback, drafted high in the draft often go to horrible teams, with more holes than a slice of Swiss cheese to fill. That one player more often than not is not going to make a difference. Not only the holes, but said rookie now has to adjust to football at the NFL level.
Sure, there have been the exceptions...Luck walked into a team that dominated offensively prior to the Manning injury, so his skills positions were set. Roethlisburger walked onto a team with a power running game that took pressure off of him and made his transition easier.
Other greats like Rodgers, Mahomes, Rivers et al sat behind their starter for at least a year before being handed the reins.
Tagovailoa has had neither. He didn’t walk into a team that was built and requiring just a quarterback to go to the next level. Nor did he sit a year behind the team’s starter before being handed the reins. I strongly suspect there was pressure at the executive level to start him for the fan base and to generate revenue. I could be wrong but somehow I doubt it.
I’ve stated previously and still stand by it, the holes in our offense need to be addressed and filled in the off-season. The only true gem we have is Gesecki at TE. Other than that, our running backs and receivers are average at best.
Only once these holes are filled and Tagovailoa actually has bonafide weapons to actually work with can we truly evaluate whether or not he’s going to succeed. To do otherwise would be what the Dolphins did to Tannehill and realizing only afterwards what a gem we had.
Build the TEAM then determine whether or not Tagovailoa is the right quarterback
It is pretty sad. I don't get some of the "norms" with the NFL. Tua clearly may not be the answer, and honestly probably isn't. Yet, they may very well just spin their wheels for another few years and flush this shot at a good team down the toilet on principal.
I don’t think he will be much worse (if that) then Tannehill when all is said and done, if he stays healthy. If that’s enough is not for me to judge.
I wanted Jalen Hurts as a long-term project off of a 3rd round pick...much different path than taking a guy at #5 overall. Nobody expected him to be a starter this season.
Honestly, a majority of the good QB’s are taking outside of the top 5 anyways. I’m sure in part due to the top 5 teams having too many issues that even a great QB can’t completely overcome.
Roethlisberger, Rivers, Mahomes, Rodgers, Brady, Watson, Allen, Jackson, Brees, Wilson were all taking outside the top 5 and all but Allen were taken outside the top 10.
In fact, not one QB ranked in the top 10 in passer rating was taking in the top 5.
Same here if I would have taken a QB in last years draft and I would have gone after one of the QB's in this upcoming draft.
I don't think it's at all accurate to compare to Tannehill. Tannehill was a converted wide receiver, incredibly raw, but with a high ceiling. Tannehill is tall, takes hits like the Terminator, and has an elite arm. Tua was supposed to be NFL ready, smart, accurate, which was supposed to make up for his weak arm, short stature, and average mobility. Tua should not need the same supports a raw rookie like Tannehill needed.
Exactly, Tua was supposed to be a generational talent who would transform the franchise. Now he's a run-of-the-mill rookie who needs time to develop literally every aspect of his game. In a couple years, they will be arguing that he's serviceable and we should stick with him bc if we can get a better defense he would be able to get us at least a wildcard spot (or...wait...sounds very recently familiar?)
I'm not happy about it. But I'd rather be glad we drafted another guy when we find that out, then to have to start all over again.
I get what you’re saying. I guess the comparison I was trying to emphasize is like Tannehill, Tagovailoa was drafted to a team void of offensive talent.
I don’t care who you are, you can’t throw the ball to yourself and you can’t hand the ball off to yourself. Tannehill didn’t have crap for skill set players and neither does Tagovailoa.
That was the comparative point I was trying to make.
You're right Tannehill was a project and was hampered by terrible coaches. Tua was supposed to be god's gift to the franchise(along with Flores). Tua will never amount to anything in the NFL.
I know you're not a fan of Tagovailoa. The jury's still out with me but let me ask you this one question...sincerely...and if you're objective and HONEST, you may alter your view of Tua...
Here in Miami...where is our Jerry Jeudy? Where is our Devonta Smith? Where is our Damien Harris? Where is our Najee Harris? See where I'm going with this? Tagovailoa...and Jalen Hurts and Mac Jones for that matter were all successful in Alabama because Saban had a complete offense to work with. Tua doesn't have any of this...not yet anyhow.
If your team isn't complete; if your offense isn't completely stocked with reliable receivers and reliable running backs, you're not going to win. You could put Patrick Mahomes in our huddle and he wouldn't fair much better with the substandard offensive talent we have.
Thing is, you might be right. But if you're wrong, we are going to blow yet another shot to get a franchise QB, probably our best shot yet. We have the third overall pick, something we haven't had in 7 years and only once before in the last twelve. And we screwed up the one in 2013 by picking a never-was DE who never even played for us. If we don't draft a QB in this draft, our next first round pick will likely be no higher than the 20s and next year's draft will be nowhere near as stacked with QBs as this one.
And if we blow it in this draft and take a QB who turns out to be bad, we have two first rounders and two second rounders to stock up other talent, so it's not a complete disaster.
It's no use. People were yelling at him for sliding last game. The same people, if Tua didn't slide and got hurt or fumbled, who would say "WHY DIDN'T HE SLIDE THE GAME IS TOO FAST FOR HIM", "HE HAS NO AWARENESS" or "HE KNOWS HE'S INJURY PRONE WHY DIDN'T HE SLIDE!?"
No use arguing. I figured people would have cooled down by now.
Tua sucks but we're probably going to be picking close to the 20's next year. OK. If he sucks so bad you should want him to play next year so we get the 1st pick, right?
Man, you people need to stop. Foolish.
Here's the thing- we have no idea how our front office rates the QB's in this draft....meaning, we don't need to spend #3 on a QB just because Fields might be there. It's fine to bring in a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round if you have him rated highly and believe he has long-term potential. Because either way, that 2021 QB is riding the bench and learning the system until further notice.
Now, if the front office thinks that it's Lawrence or Fields only, then it's a different conversation. Maybe we need to trade up to get our guy. But I have a hard time believing that they're 100% all-in on one of those names after being 100% all-in on Tua 10 months ago. The only way that makes sense is if Ross said, "Draft Tua, no matter what...," and now the front office is helping him see the error in judgement there.
It doesn't feel like that's the case though since GM's and coaches are very tied to the big-name QB's they choose. It really stinks because a few years ago, Ross said "Draft Lamar Jackson" and Gase said no.
The thing Rick is I KNOW I'm right!!!! There are so many here who are always quarterback quarterback quarterback...that's ***ALL*** they ever tout. Right now there are so many who have an overdosed viagra induced erection over Patrick Mahomes...and I'm not taking ANYTHING away from that kid's talent...but look who he throws the ball to. Sammy Watkins, Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce. Look who he's handing the ball off to...Edwards-Helaire and LeVeon Bell. If Mahomes didn't have this exception roster of talent, he wouldn't be HALF of the quarterback he is.
THIS debate has been going on in the Tannehill thread for 2 years now. Tannehill is only doing well because of Derrick Henry. Well duh!!! Mahomes is only doing well because of the aforementioned talent...and Tagovailoa is doing poorly because he has NONE of the talent mentioned above.
You can only make so much chicken salad when you have nothing but chicken ****e. Get some talent in here...build the offensive roster completely so you're not dependent on ONE player like the Colts with Manning. Get Tua his Jerry Jeudy, his Devonta Smith, his Najee Harris and let's see what he can do with some true talent. THEN you can get the pitchforks and torches to burn Frankenstein's monster if he doesn't produce. At least then, you have a team you can find a "Tannehill" in free agency.
Yet Fitz makes the offense hum. Agreed it's unfair to expect Tua to run the offense as good as a vet, but Tua didn't even try to make it work. He doesn't see when receivers are open. That is a problem. You want to bank on him fixing that problem, but, like I've said already, who cares if he fixes it? It's not gonna turn him into an elite QB. It will make him an average QB. Like Fitz. But without the arm.
Tannehill is doing well in Tennessee because he is elite at some things, and that offense maximizes those.
Tua doesn't have any elite measurables. So even with a better supporting cast, nothing I've ever seen from Tua would indicate that he would ever play at Tannehill's level.
Also, any QB will excel with a great wide receiver. Freaking Culpepper looked like a god when he was throwing to Moss.
We went 10-6 this season despite playing a trigger-happy journeyman and a noodle-armed rookie at QB and having a revolving door at RB, TE, WR and OL. With another draft and FA, Flores can have this team in the playoff race again even with Tua as QB. But I don't want just a playoff contender. I want a team that can make a push for a SB, and for that, you need a Pro-Bowl caliber QB. And don't tell me what I need to do, because it just makes you sound foolish.
Maybe they were the reason he looked so good and not the other way around. He'll never see the separation he was gifted with at Alabama, just not gonna happen at this level. That team was head and shoulders above the rest and it showed, there is more parity in the NFL and teams are more equal. He has yet to show the ability to throw a receiver open, even Fitz criticized him for that. If he's waiting around for those 5 yards of separation the Alabama WR's got, he's gonna be waiting a long time for that here because it's never going to happen here on a consistent basis.
And I beg to differ on the Mahomes comparison, you put Mahomes here and you'll see an entirely different team. May not be a Super Bowl team, but it will be much improved. The difference between the two is Mahomes isn't a game manager, he's a game-winner. He finds a way to get it done. I don't see the same drive from TT.
I don't agree. Mahomes isn't just doing well because of his surrounding cast, that's a dumb statement. The kid can make throws NO ONE else in the NFL can. He throws off his back foot, across his body to the opposite sideline 20 yards down the field and 60 yards in all and it's still right on the money. He's on a SB championship team because of his surrounding cast, but they'd be a perennial playoff team if he had a bunch of scrubs surrounding him.
You know Tua was being compared to Steve Young while in Alabama by a bunch of people, including by Steve Young himself. Young said this about him:
You don't need elite measurables to be elite. And Young had a terrible debut in Tampa, not just his first season but also his second, WAY worse than Tua. Yet he ended up #1 in career adjusted passer rating (and that includes his bad years) for starting QB's with 3000+ attempts.
There are too many QB's that have succeeded after a bad rookie season to just dismiss Tua as a failure. Hell, Josh Allen was 2nd worst his rookie season among all starters, again WAY worse than Tua. Look at him now. And Allen had accuracy issues his first 2 years, which are well known to be hard to fix, meaning the argument was strong for saying he'd never make it.
Anyway, it doesn't look like anyone is changing their minds over Tua, which is fine. I'm actually happy that most people on both sides of the argument see the tremendous importance of the QB. But I think a reality check is coming for those thinking Flores is giving up on Tua and drafting a QB with our first pick. I think Flores will go heavy on drafting good surrounding players for Tua and see how he does with a better supporting cast and a full offseason.
So, our 22 year old rookie quarterback will be good enough to get us in the playoff race next year. That sounds great! Is it possible he can improve with a full off-season program, a better roster and a year experience under his belt?
You don't even really know what you're saying or complaining about. Stop rushing to judgement. You admitted in this post this team did good with no real talent. Let's see what he does with a talented roster.
Don't tell me what I know or don't know. I'm judging what I see from previous experience. Tua will likely improve, but his skills are of a game manager, not a QB who can carry a team. He's serviceable but he's no star. And when you draft someone that high, you expect more than serviceable. If you think a few cranky fans on the internet are the only ones saying this, you're wearing blinders. EVERYONE is saying it. Everyone who isn't looking at him through aqua and orange glasses can see exactly what he is, particularly compared to the other QBs taken in this draft. We screwed up but fortunately, we get a chance at a do-over. As long as the front office isn't too stubborn or stupid to take it.
Oh surprise, people slobbered over the pretty boy feel good story of the QB for the best team in the nation.
I didn't see Steve Young when I watched Tua play. Steve Young can say whatever he wants, and I can think it's completely wrong.
Pretty fair take imo...
I remember how Steve Young was raving about Marcus Mariota too....
Although Young was an amazing QB.... he has one of the worse takes ever.
And yet. Fitz an NFL journeyman always seemed to find the open guy and not get himself sacked!
And let's face it this guy would have been benched in 2nd half if the journeyman did not have COVId.That would have made 3 benchings in the last 7 games.He did not show any improvement as the season progressed!That's my biggest concern right there.
You know, it’s annoying to me that a lot of you are making me defend a quarterback that I wasn’t keen on drafting in the first place and I’m not sold on now.
Am I the only one here that understands the quarterback is not the only player on offense?
Am I the only one here that understands the difference between a 38 year old veteran with 17 years of experience versus a 22 year old snot nosed rookie kid?
It’s because of this nonsensical mindset that ownership gave in to the masses and drafted a quarterback when we already had one.
It’s because of this nonsensical mindset that the seed of drafting yet another quarterback will be planted instead of actually getting TALENT on offense that actually makes us a threat.
It’s because this nonsensical mindset has fans more interested in quarterback stats and tv ratings instead of the actual purity of the game itself in how you perennially win year after year that’s going to cause us to come up THAT short year after year.
Don’t get me wrong, I love a long deep touchdown passes just as much as the next guy, but I’d be happier with with a quarterback that only has to throw the ball 25 times a game and an offense that brutally punishes and humiliates a defense with a ground pounding game and wins week after week.
But alas we have no true running threat nor any true receiving threat...so everyone keep piling on the rookie quarterback and rationalize it with the “yea, but” nonsensical argument.
Amen DK, the takes in here and nonsensical just like you said.
Clearly not. It seems like the board is split 50/50 on this issue. Like I said though it doesn't really matter because: 1) people aren't changing their minds, and 2) Flores' comments suggest he's satisfied with Tua's entire body of work and that people shouldn't just focus on the few bad games in evaluating him.
Actually Flores said more than that. He said 2020 was NOT an "audition" for Tua to see if we need to draft a new QB:
Granted, he said that in November, but he's been consistent in that regard with comments on Tua's overall development and play. So whatever those half of posters who want another QB with the #3 pick think, Flores himself has already told us he's going to try to develop Tua, meaning that we're probably drafting non-QB positions on offense with our high picks.