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Thoughts on benching Tua?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jdallen1222, Nov 22, 2020.

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  1. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    The game has changed and so has the business of the game. QBs don't get that kind of time to produce anymore.
     
  2. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Rookie QBs are not even getting the end of the year anymore, case in point this thread. That's ridiculous.

    And considering the kind of year he was forced to play his rookie season (practice squad talent around him, no preseason, 2020), it sounds even more crazy to write him off already.
     
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  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    This is how you minimize Fitztragic.

    The guy who has failed his entire career when is has been counted on.

    There is just as much chance that Fitz throws 4 interceptions if he started the game as it is three touchdowns.

    Flores is playing 3-D chess out there.
     
  4. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    No, what's ridiculous is the idea that what fans think has anything to do with what the front office does. The front office and the owners care about wins. As long as we're winning, Tua is probably safe. But at some point, probably at the end of next season, if he doesn't improve and we start losing games because of his play, he'll get replaced. It might not ever happen, he might improve enough to thrive in a Flores team with a great defense and a good running game. But he won't get a long leash if we start losing because of him.
     
  5. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Who said what we think has anything to do with what the front office does? I don't think anyone has even hinted this, this is talk among ourselves, at least I thought so. Does this mean we shouldn't talk about anything?
     
  6. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    No, I said that in today's NFL, the nature of the game and the business meant that young QBs didn't get as much time as they used to. You said that this discussion is proof of that and it's ridiculous. I was pointing out that this discussion has no connection at all to what will happen with personnel. This is just fans doing what they always do. What dictates whether Tua gets time or not is whether we're winning.
     
  7. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    What about the media? They have an influence and some of them were out there saying this is an audition for Tua because Miami might want to move on if he doesn't show enough, Flores even had to address it the talk. So its not just the fans we're talking about.
     
  8. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    No, the media doesn't control it, either. What controls it are wins and losses. "When you win, nothing hurts." If the team is winning, no one is going to be able to gainsay Flores wrt the QB situation. If we start losing because of Tua, then the patience will begin to get strained.
     
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  9. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That’s a good argument for using the number three pick this year on a quarterback.
     
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  10. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Tua needs to prove that he can throw to the right. His arm strength leaves a lot to be desired.
     
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  11. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Or he would be better. The data show that when the offense plays more aggressively in the passing game, he plays better.
     
  12. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    I didn't say they control it, when did I say that?
     
  13. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Either way I'm not worried about the direction of the franchise if Tua isn't the guy. Flores and Grier will move on and move on quickly if he isn't. I love Tua and think he will only get better. But if he doesn't don't expect Miami to sit around and wait for 7 years again.

    I actually wouldn't be surprised if Miami drafts a QB in round 3 next year
     
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  14. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If Fitzpatrick retires or moves on to another team then the QB position will certainly have to be addressed either with another vet/mentor or, in the draft. Personally I think a second rounder in the draft makes alot of sense. If they go the veteran route maybe Moore is available.
     
  15. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    The idea that Fitz is an INT machine is a false narrative. His TD to INT numbers have been solid almost his whole career minus one year that was really bad, especially once he got beyond his first couple years in the league.

    The fall apart narrative is BS too, it's not supported by any sort of evidence once you look into it any more than you could say any QB "falls apart".

    People need to stop parroting what they read and actually analyze his career.
     
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  16. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Like you, I'm not completely sold on Tagovailoa either. It's not all on him nor his play however. It boggles my mind to no end when all of the focus in placed on a single player, in this case...Tua.

    Everyone knows our offense isn't where we want it to be. Everyone knows our offense hasn't been where we want it to be for several years! The only consistent spark on our offense over the last several years was Tannehill. The offensive line had more holes than a slice of swiss cheese; we had no consistent running game; our receiving corps was crap. The past two years, we've "praised" DeVante Parker and yet, this is the same receiver we were all critical of because he would get injured tripping over a blade of grass! Offensively, our team has sucked and sucked for the longest time. One player in Tua isn't going to make a bit of difference.

    In the offseason, Flores and Grier focused on the basics offensively...the offensive line. The drafting of 3 solid rookies to plug the pourus offensive line has already paid dividends. The main focus during last season was rebuilding the defense...and we've all praised the defense. This coming offseason, expect the rebuild to continue on the offensive side of the ball.

    Once the team is solidly set on both sides of the ball, then there can be a fair and accurate accounting of Tagovailoa's abilities and whether or not he is the future of the franchise.
     
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  17. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    If he made the existing injury worse, then he also injured him.

    Grow up!!!
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    It is analyzing his career. If you want to ignore what is in front of you, be my guest
     
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  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    One other aspect to consider- Herbert is on a 6-win team and trying to put up 40+ a game to remain competitive. In other words, he's forced to take chances and it's why he has 10 INT's on the year (and of course, 28 TD's). For comparison, Tannehill has 32 TD's/7 INT. Josh Allen has 34/9, Big Ben has 33/10.

    So yes, Herbert absolutely belongs in the NFL and he's already an "average" starter on a 6-win team. Tua is also an "average starter" on a 10 win playoff team where he's being asked to do much less in order to earn the win. It's difficult to compare the two directly this season since they're being asked to do two very different things. To me, it's just too soon to say Herbert > Tua.
     
  20. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We know Herbert can throttle it back but, Tua might have difficulty throttling it up if need be.
     
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  21. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Is that a lack of talent though, or just a lack of experience? Tua could definitely throttle up in Alabama and the ironic thing is, we actually may end up drafting one of his favorite targets in the 1st round and take Harris (his RB) in the 2nd. cBrad believes we'll take two stud receivers in the 1st which means we could literally have an Alabama reunion on offense with three potential skill players from the Tide next season.

    Last year, I was against drafting Tua because of the high-powered weapons he had...if the ball went in their general direction, it was caught, tackles were broken and it led to a TD. That's how good Alabama's weapons on offense were/are, so it was a big question mark how he'd do with average receivers. I still wonder that to some extent but he's absolutely my quarterback today and I'll support the guy 100% from here on out. This "bust talk" is not only way too early, but it's also misplaced with the way our D is playing combined with our injuries at WR.

    With Preston Williams out there, Tua was confident and fired those 50/50 balls frequently because he had that "Alabama-like" confidence in his receiver. It's not the same with Hollins, Ford or Jakeem...and you guys know I absolutely love Jakeem. So before we take this conversation too far, I think everyone should take a step back and wait for us to have a full offense on the field to judge.

    When it comes to Fitzpatrick, of course he's better than Tua at this point because he sees so much more due to experience. Don't forget, Fitz is a Harvard grad, mega-intelligent and has made 8 rosters for his ability to process the field quickly and get the ball out. That's his "superpower", if you will, what makes him special. But that also leads to having too much confidence and trying to do more than he's capable of at times. I won't lie, in my mind I was "begging" for Flores to put Fitzpatrick in last week...and then I was terrified once it actually happened. That's the blessing and the curse of Fitz-Magic.

    Personally, I'd start Fitz next week and in the playoffs simply because he gives us a better chance of winning...and that's all these next few games are about (I say "next few" because we're going to beat Buffalo and win a game or two in the playoffs). Tua is absolutely the QB1 in my opinion though and he'll be the starter in 2021 as well, regardless of how this all shakes out. So when I say "start Fitz", I'm not knocking Tua's inexperience at all...I just want that Super Bowl ring this year and I think our defense is ready for that challenge now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  22. btfu149

    btfu149 Well-Known Member

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    Fitz isn't a star but he's been a viable starting QB for most of his career, he's just never been on a good team, and because he wasn't a high draft pick doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.
     
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  23. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Outstanding take! :up:
     
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  24. FishOutOfWater

    FishOutOfWater Member

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    It seems like the coaching staff is super conservative with Tua, i.e., it seemed like Gesicki was just running flat routes with Tua, then they stuck Fitzpatrick in and Gesicki is running verticals.
    Though I’m certainly no X’s and O’s expert, to my novice eye, that just seems to be the case.
     
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  25. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

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    Tua's probably used to having wide open receivers more than he is now, especially considering the Dolphins WR corp is essentially scrubs.

    Fitzy is used to throwing people open, he's more suited to this team.

    I think the team is clearly better with Fitzpatrick right now, he utilizes the talent he has better.

    Coach Flo has to balance letting Tua succeed with not demoralizing the defence. TBH the fact that the Defence kept them in that game after Tua kept giving the Raiders the ball back with decent field position has be a drag.

    Ironically once Fitzy came in to spark the Offence, that's when the D finally started getting lit up.
     
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  26. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I like your optimism. You've been predicting an 11-5 regular season record since day one while everyone else timidly hedged on 8-8 or maybe 9-7 and some of our more highly exhaulted fans were deriding anybody even hinting at the possibility of play-offs. Well, here we are, on the verge. From now on, every time you clear your throat,, I'm taking notes.
     
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  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's not true- the league has already said that the Raider's receiver pushed off on that 1st touchdown (should have been called) and then they got that phantom PI on Jones (shouldn't have been called). Those two blown calls handed the Raiders their only two TD's of the day.

    Of course, that's no excuse- in the NFL you get bad calls and you have to outplay them. Normally our team wouldn't be good enough to do that, which is why I say this is a different team in 2020.
     
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  28. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL, I appreciate that. But to be fair, I said if the defense fully developed as expected (they did), the line developed quickly (they did) and Tua/Fitz could find some consistency (they have), this could be an 11-win team in the playoffs. I also said if those things didn't happen then we'd probably only win 6. =)

    I don't know if we'll beat the Bills but I do feel like we're playoff bound either way- Cleveland will lose to Pittsburg. If we lose to Buffalo though and Pitt wins, then we're right back in Buffalo for week 18. We obviously don't want that, LOL! So really hoping we beat the Bills the 1st time around and then gear up for the Colts or Titans.

    I really like our chances against the Chiefs, Titans, Colts and Steelers with all our WR's healthy. It's a shame there's no real path to drawing the Steelers in round 1 without basically everyone in the 5-8 slots losing this week!
     
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  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I don't agree with that at all, regardless of what data is telling you. If the offense is stagnant when the game is close, it will be even worse when you're one dimensional and losing by 20.
     
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  30. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Not true.Tua is not seeing the field.Watch the video I posted.
     
  31. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Literally right here: "What about the media? They have an influence and some of them were out there saying this is an audition for Tua because Miami might want to move on if he doesn't show enough, Flores even had to address it the talk. So its not just the fans we're talking about."
     
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  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The video does not show "Tua not seeing the field." The video shows Tua playing conservative and not trying to force passes into very fast opening/closing windows. Your statement implies Tua can't do it, while the truth is that he's choosing not to take those chances when he actually should at times.

    If what you're saying is true, Tua's a bust. If what I'm saying is true, Tua needs a little more time to adjust to NFL levels.
     
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  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I mean, it was talked about ad nauseum during the game broadcast, but it seems pretty apparent that Tua isn't seeing guys as being open. This shouldn't surprise anyone, one of the concerns about Tua was that in college he was throwing to receivers who had massive separation, not having to throw into tight windows or throw guys open. He's not seeing NFL open right now.
     
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  34. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Tua is not seeing wrs open because he is used to seeing 5 yd separation in college.This is why he holds on to the ball and gets sacked while Fitz does not.So yes he is not seeing the field.
    Will this come in time?I don't know and nobody knows but you and everybody else should be concerned
    I thought he was an overated prospect coming out from his average arm,average mobility,and below average size not to mention injury history.No clue how this added up to 5th pick in draft.
    I haven't seen anything to change my mind.This team has won because of Def and special teams despite him
    Will he prove me wrong?Sure hope so. I'm not getting any younger.
     
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  35. FishOutOfWater

    FishOutOfWater Member

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    Well, it’ll be all on Tua on Sunday. Fitz out with COVID.
     
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  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    ****. Well, that's that.

    I'm by no means convinced that Tua can win this game right now.

    Hope he proves me wrong.
     
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  37. FishOutOfWater

    FishOutOfWater Member

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    What I’m worried about is Tua being out due to contact tracing. Then this team is really up a creek without a paddle.
     
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  38. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    I had my doubts we were going to win even with Fitz, if Allen plays. I don't think our D can stop them.
     
  39. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    They said he was not in close contact?
    Not sure how that is possible but that's what they said.
     
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  40. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent Well-Known Member

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    Bills offense isnt really that scary. Their running game sucks and if you can take away Diggs wich Xavier should...... they become limited. Allen is due for some mistakes too..

    Im not a Phins fans but Im pretty confident on your guys defense. However offensivley im not sure you guys could score..... its a bummer Fitz wont be available for this game, he may given you guys the best chance to win.
     
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