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Thoughts from a friend

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by gafinfan, Jul 2, 2009.

  1. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    I recieved this from my Hunting buddy and best pal. Hope you'll enjoy.

    While watching a little TV on Sunday instead of going to church, I
    > > watched a church in Atlanta honoring one of its senior pastors who had
    > > been retired many years. He was 92 at that time and I wondered why the
    > > church even bothered to ask the old gentleman to preach at that age.
    > >
    > > After a warm welcome, introduction of this speaker, and as the
    > > applause quieted down, he rose from his high back chair and walked
    > > slowly, with great effort and a sliding gait to the podium. Without a
    > > note or written paper of any kind he placed both hands on the pulpit to
    > > steady himself and then quietly and slowly he began to speak....
    > >
    > > "When I was asked to come here today and talk to you, your pastor asked
    > > me to tell you what was the greatest lesson ever learned in my 50-odd
    > > years of preaching. I thought about it for a few days and boiled it down
    > > to just one thing that made the most difference in my life and sustained
    > > me through all my trials. The one thing that I could always rely on when
    > > tears and heartbreak and pain and fear and sorrow paralyzed me...
    > >
    > > the only thing that would comfort was this verse........ ..
    > >
    > > "Jesus loves me this I know.
    > > For the Bible tells me so.
    > > Little ones to Him belong,
    > > we are weak but He is strong.....
    > > Yes, Jesus loves me....
    > > The Bible tells me so."
    > >
    > > When he finished, the church was quiet. You actually could hear
    > > his foot steps as he shuffled back to his chair. I don't believe I will
    > > ever forget it.
    > >
    > > A pastor once stated, "I always noticed that it was the adults who
    > > chose the children's hymn 'Jesus Loves Me' (for the children of course)
    > > during a hymn sing, and it was the adults who sang the loudest because I
    > > could see they knew it the best."
    > >
    > > "Senior version of Jesus Loves Me"
    > >
    > > Here is a new version just for us who have white hair or no hair at
    > > all. For us over middle age (or even those almost there) and all you
    > > others, check out this newest version of Jesus Loves Me.
    > >
    > >
    > > JESUS LOVES ME
    > >
    > > Jesus loves me, this I know,
    > > Though my hair is white as snow
    > > Though my sight is growing dim,
    > > Still He bids me trust in Him.
    > > (CHORUS)
    > > YES, JESUS LOVES ME.. YES, JESUS LOVES
    > > ME..
    > > YES, JESUS LOVES ME, FOR THE BIBLE TELLS
    > > ME SO.
    > >
    > > Though my steps are oh, so slow,
    > > With my hand in His I'll go
    > > On through life, let come what may,
    > > He'll be there to lead the way.
    > > (CHORUS)
    > >
    > > When the nights are dark and long,
    > > In my heart He puts a song..
    > > Telling me in words so clear,
    > > "Have no fear, for I am near."
    > > (CHORUS)
    > >
    > > When my work on earth is done,
    > > And life's victories have been won.
    > > He will take me home above,
    > > Then I'll understand His love.
    > > (CHORUS)
    > >
    > > I love Jesus, does He know?
    > > Have I ever told Him so?
    > > Jesus loves to hear me say,
    > > That I love Him every day
    > > (CHORUS)


    Happy 4th everyone and God bless.

    Ron
     
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  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    All stories are true,....some of them actually happened! I don't know about the old pastor in Atlanta but it is said that when the theolgian Karl Barth was asked for his greatest truth he gave the same answer.

    I don't know if either story "happened", I do know they are both true!
     
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  3. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    Great! I printed it to take to my church to read.
    Thank you.
     
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  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ohio, GA, anyone,

    I do not mean to offend, (we all know my lack of beliefs) but I've always had some questions about this verse and the seeming principles behind it.

    If this isn't the right place to get into this discussion, I'll make another thread if necessary.

    First, there two things repeated in in just 6 lines, "Jesus loves me" and "The bible tells me so". My question is about the second. To me, (maybe colored through my "glasses") but it seems this is an indictment of critical thinking. It feels like, "because I said so that's why" and that it means the bible shouldn't be questioned.

    Secondly, why does there always seem to be references to man being weak? Even with things like AA, it seems man must be considered powerless completely for God to have power. Why can't man be powerful and God more powerful?

    Thank you in advance.
     
  5. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    With all due respect, you know thats true, me thinks in this case you are over analyzing something that was written for children so that they could/would understand.

    1. The Bible does say that Jesus loves children. Straight forward and to the point.

    2. Man can be powerful or weak, its our choice, but jesus is stronger (if you believe) another truth. You know as well as I that, no matter your beliefs or mine, most humans will always take the easy (read weak) way!:up:

    You and yours have a great 4th.

    Ron
     
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  6. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    OK Georgia has had his answer and I'll try mine.

    First, no need to apologize. You ask the question respectfully and well. It deserves an equal answer.

    What you see as an indictment of critical thinking, I see as a statement of authority. It is not just a person who tells you that Jesus loves you, it is God through His Word. Think of when you asked a teacher and they answered, it's not just my opinion, this or that expert also says what I say. That is the sense of the referral to scripture.

    Now regarding the "weakness" issue. While we have free will and thus were created to make our own calls, there is abundant evidence of the weakness of our judgement. This goes back to antiquity. The symbol for Rome, can't think of its name, is an axe made by combining many thin stalks together and wrapping them. Each individual is weak but together we are strong it claims to say.

    A theme of the story of Adam and Eve is the poorness of our decision making ability. Indeed a central tenet of most faiths is the need to freely surrender one's own imperfect will to the perfect will of God.

    Hope this helps. If you wish to question further, go ahead.

    Have a nice holiday weekend.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Thanks guys. I appreciate the discourse and the understanding of my intentions. Again, if at any point, you want this discussion to end just say the word.

    1. The Bible Tells Me So:
    Maybe part of it for me, was/is my dad's fondness for the phrase, "Because I said so, that's why", and because I am and always have been inquisitive, I have a severe aversion to that phrase and ones like it. Or, maybe because of my inquisitiveness I like to look deeper into things.

    So, GA, I do understand that it is for children, but IMO, when dealing with the child mind and its thirst for knowledge, I feel a disservice is being done, with a simple and incomplete answer, like, "the Bible says so". I've worked with many kids in my day, from ages 5-18, and it never ceases to amaze me, their ability to comprehend things when explained properly.

    Ohio, I guess, if the idea is to take the literal word of the Bible, than that makes sense. However, if the Bible is viewed as parables, then, "The Bible says so", doesn't seem sufficient.

    2. Man is weak:
    GA, I do understand the belief that Jesus is stronger, more powerful. My issue is, Jesus' power should be considered an absolute, regardless of man's power or lack thereof. I don't mean to trivialize this, but the only analogy I can think of right now is, Superman and Batman. Superman is supposed to be all powerful, yet Batman embodies the strength of human will. What power they each have takes nothing away from the other. Am I making sense?

    Ohio, of course there's strength in numbers, but the power of an individual can be pretty strong as well. Why is it not, we are strong on our own, but together we are stronger? When helping a child with their homework, it is counter productive and borderline child abuse, to tell them, "You are weak. You cannot solve this problem. Swear your love and allegiance to me, and I'll give you the answer you seek.", for example. And maybe just maybe, this constant barrage of "you're weak" has become a self fulfilling prophecy. Maybe the bad decisions people make, are because we're told we're weak and that we'll be forgiven, so why bother with tough calls now? Maybe not.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It seems the main difference between humans and everything else is the depth and power of our minds. If one believes that is because of a god, then it would seem that denigrating that power, that gift, would be an act of disrespect to that god.

    For me, even when I was a kid, I had/still have a hard time rectifying the notion that God would create us in his image, consider us the chosen, yet hammer home the idea that we are weak, that we can do nothing right without him. When you couple that with things like, "The Bible tells me so", it begins to feel, for me, that humans are merely minions so to speak, and our only purpose is to praise an entity who its already been established is greater.

    Its said God is our father, but I don't know of a good father, who wants his children to believe they're weak and need to constantly depend on him and not themselves.
     
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  8. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Wow, thats a pretty full plate. I've just finished cooking my pork ribs for later today and promise to, at some point, give your thoughts their proper response. Just finished taste testing and man they are good!!! :up:

    You and yours have a good one and I'll be back.:wink2:

    Ron
     
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  9. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I'm not sure you understand the point I was trying to make. I would certainly not advocate a simple, literal reading of the Bible. First of all, I don't think such a thing exists, but that is for another day. The phrase is there to give confudence. The phrase is there simply because "I said so" is inadaquate. Jesus loves you not because I said so but because God says so.

    I think you are correct that your history with the phrase presupposes you to see it in only one way but I would encourage you to see it as an assurance rather than a dismissive.

    Again, this is a children's song. It is intended to show confidence and work in simple terms. Its intention is to do what Robert Fulgham did a few years ago in the secular realm and say "Everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten".

    Weakness is about the fallibility of the human will. Why bother about the tough calls? Because we are still called to love God and each other and sometimes calls regarding that are hard. We still do them in confidence.

    As Luther said "Sin boldly". That is, do the work, make the best call, and then go forth and do what you believe is correct in loving God and neighbor. If it is wrong well that is likely better than not trying at all?!

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    God wants us to chose to love Him. Love can not be compelled. The love comes from the choice.

    It is here that the parent analogy breaks down, in my opinion. God is not simply, "Father" (or more properly "Dad", "Abba", the familar) but God is God. We are made to praise Him. To chose to love Him. That is our purpose, to live in a loving relationship with the creator. It is not simply a father who properly raises a child to be independent.
     
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  10. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Don't know if I can add alot to what Ohio has said but heres my nickle.

    1. As you say children have inquisitive minds; you have been with those 5-18 and I've raised 3 so I think we both have some knowledge there. This is a song for very young children, Ohio can correct me if I'm wrong here, but we are talking about those in the 3, 4, and 5 age group. The coloring book and sing along group, if you will, so everything is kept simple to keep it at their level of understanding. Not to degrade their learning but to put it on a level they can comprehend. If they ask for more you supply it, as needed. When your 3 year old is first told about his new baby sister being on the way you answer his questions in a way that will satisfy him. There is no need to supply more than required at that point. He wouldn't understand anyway.

    2. I fully understand where you are coming from when you say "Do as I say, not as I do" or because "I'm your father." At some point in all our lives that just doesn't cover it. I was raised by my my mom with some help from several Uncles (Good and Bad) so I didn't have as much of that as you may have gotten, think goodness. All the stories about how hard they had it versus how easy it is now sort of thing. I do remember the few times I imployed that method my mom would roll her eyes at me while kicking my leg under the table. She was a great teacher (I miss you mom RIP) God bless her.

    3. I remember this line from Starman and believe it to be true about the human race. "You are best when things are worse." Most of us stretch ourselves only when pushed, only the very few (5 %) do this automatically. As you know its said we only use a small portion of our brains capacity and I think thats where our weakness lies. That why we should bother with the tough calls IMHO, its the only way to know, and feel, victory or defeat.

    4. I agree with Ohio as for as God wanting us to chose him, nothing good comes from a demand. You can't demand someone's love it has to be freely and completely given to even be called love IMHO (I'm remembering my oldest girl while typing this to you). God is so much more than any label aka "father" that humans put on him.

    Hope you and yours had a great day, the ribs were outta this world BTY and I still feel full!!

    Take care
    Ron
     
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