The question everyone has been asking....

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Zod, Oct 1, 2010.

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  1. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Every elite pocket passing QB that this league has seen over the past 20 years has been successful out of the shotgun.

    Almost every QB uses it in this league. Whether you can run or not.

    Some of the benefits and advantages posted in the beginning of this thread seemed like logical answers to why these great QBs prefer this formation on obvious passing downs.

    But to be honest, just being comfortable in the gun is not a good enough answer for me. And being able to threaten run is certainly not a good enough answer or advantage.

    There has to be a reason why they're comfortable with it, whether it be getting a broader look at the pre-snap defense, setting up int he pocket faster, IDK.
     
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  2. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The benefit of the shotgun is that it allows some QBs to see the field better. That doesn't mean it helps all QBs. There could a point where Henne prefers it, but right now it wouldn't provide him any benefit if he doesn't.

    It's not really a matter of one being inherently superior, it's just personal preference.
     
  3. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    actually one trend I realized when I woke this morning is that west coast offenses don't use it as much. Off the top of my head mcnabb or any of reids qbs haven't used it as much. Young, Montana and Garcia didn't use it much in sf. Hasselbeck did not use it much in his price years in Seattle...I tend to think that the correlation there is that teams that use timing offenses such as the wco prefer a natural dropback. Favre is the one exception I can think of.

    All the qbs you mentioned played in some version of a coryell or other offensive system.

    As for the rest of it, there doesn't need to be any other answer. It's not about whether we like a shotgun or under center snap. There is no correlation between snapping from under center and wins or snapping from the gun and wins and that's the only stat I care about.
     
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  4. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    But there may be many stats that show more efficiency out of the shotgun in a certain teams passing game which may certainly lead to wins.

    I'm actually inclined to agree with Stringer Bell in that it allows the QB to see the whole field better including the pass rush, blitzers, and possible pre-snap coverages, IMO.

    I'd love to sit down with a guy like Peyton Manning and pick his brain on this. His answer may be "because I'm just more comfortable passing out of it." My follow up question would certainly be, "Well why are you more comfortable? What is it about being a few yards off the LOS that gives you more comfort?"

    I'm not really too concerned about Henne not preferring the shotgun. I don't think it's that big a deal at the moment. But I do think the high potent passing offenses benefit from it in one way or another and I think it's something he should be working on getting more comfortable with.
     
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  5. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There are other things that correlate more to the efficiency of a passing offense. For example, Henne tore up blitzes the other night going 21/31/278 on plays when the Jets blitzed. But the Vikes and Bills gave him shell coverages and he struggled to make plays.

    The Shotgun allows a QB to set up quicker and I think that would be the answer you would hear from those QB's. Other than that I cant think fo a single legitimate advantage..which isnt to say there arent any. :up:
     
  6. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I didn't think he struggled against Minnesota. He had a 64 completion percentage, 7.6 YPA, only threw the ball fourteen times and had the ball only 44 plays. In the game I didn't see struggles.
     
  7. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Well thank you I guess. Here is who I am. I'm a guy that threw against the wall (like I see here everyday) on forums 10 years ago. What began as a little talk on South Florida newspapers website a few years before became something different with the Finheaven community and a little comradery. I studied the NFL game as much as I could in the mid-late 90's on the internet. I came across a few people that knew as much or more than me but we all still had questions. There were some things that were just answered with "throw it out there" and every one of us who was there know this to be fact. Back then, there was nothing near the volume of information you could find on various websites today. Even the official NFL website was less intuative than what fans had created on their own. We found our way through the forest as best we could.

    This is how I changed. After working 17 years, eating baloney sandwiches, and changing diapers I had two kids that were the ripe old ages of 9 and 14. I had completely missed the opportunity to coach one of my kids but an opportunity at work (and a paycut) presented itself for me coach my youngest. Imagine that - I could participate in the game that I had fallen in love with (once again) with my child. I was not passing that opportunity up. No amount of money was worth passing it up. I had no idea what was about to come.

    So what happened my first year of coaching?. Well, we got our butt's kicked. It wasn't my team. I was an assistant. I just volunteered and they took me in. The crazy thing was that I knew more about football than them and they had been there for four or five years - losing by the way. It took me all of one season to figure out "Hey! This NFL crap doesn't work with kids." So when that season ended I started participating in other forums - youth coaching forums.

    Now I'm not going into that long story of where I've been or what I learned. I can tell you that in one synopsis. People smarter than me had reached BACK to old books to tell them the story of football. And to be frank, what I learned from them is that the younger the kids you coach the further in the history of football you need to go back to playing. The long and short of my youth coaching career is that it led to coaching high school. I was no longer coaching my son. I was coaching at a smaller school than he attended. I was officially in the "network" of coaching. How I got there was a blur.

    So how did I get my knowledge or lack there of? Well I have watched over 100 coaching videos that still sit in my library. I hate reading books but I keep a collection of my favorites. They number about 20. But the key thing you will notice if you ever saw this volume of information is that the videos are NEW and the books are OLD. To be honest, I value the books (even though I hate reading books) more than the videos. Every day I think to myself that I need to watch/read them all again. Time and the joy of life just doesn't allow for it.

    So where am I now? I am right here. After two years of coaching in high school and working a full time job (a real job, not teaching) I was completely burned out. So you guys just have to put up with me.

    You named some quarterbacks. Let's take them individually.

    The thing that you fail to mention every time you mention him in shotgun is that he has a back standing next to him 3/4 of the time he is in spread. When that percentage is reduced from 3/4 Manning is usually running a two minute or hurry up offense. Here is a set of highlight reel. Just go through the thing and look how often a running back is in the game. They call it spread offense and generally the fan looks at spread and says "Pass". They run out of it. The numbers in the box tells them whether to run or pass. It's not the miraculous Peyton Manning. It is the theory of the offense.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d8133c03c/Playbook-Seahawks-vs-Colts-recap

    That local high school team (that was losing) I referenced earlier. They hired a consultant named Tony Franklin to teach them the offense.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Franklin_(coach)

    Well I didn't pay him a fortune to teach me spread. I bought his videos. I'll never run spread because I will never coach past high school. Why will I never run spread? Tony Franklin tells you in the beginning of one of his videos -

    "If they put 7 in the box, you have to pass. Most of the time it will only take 6 in the box for us to pass. If you are not willing to pass on every down that they place 7 in the box, you should not run this offense."

    The quarterback is trained (in high school) to count the box before taking the snap. If the play call is run and he reads 7 in the box, he changes the play to pass. The genius of Peyton Manning? Can you count the box? Congratulations, you are just as good as Peyton Manning. Now let's see how well you can throw the ball.

    You know I have seen you mention this name a couple of times and I really did not want to address it. The reason why I did not want to address it is because during that time I was telling you about the internet in the late 90's, I read a response from a writer to mass group of people. In the late 90's nobody playing quarterback for the Dolphins was going to get a fare shot. One of the writers finally said in an article, "Dan Marino barely left this game with the ability to walk. He is not coming back."

    Why was he in shotgun? After multiple knee surgeries on each knee, he could barely get back there on his own.

    uuuuuhhhhhh.......I need sleep. I thought I could last this post out but I can't. But to shorten my response upon my return, you can lump Tom Brady in with the Manning reference. :up:
     
  8. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Geez...... I was really bleeding at the keyboard this morning. :words::stupid:


    A couple of things here:

    Last week I watched Tom Brady run for 10 yards and a first down. He got up and immediately celebrated with a first down signal. My son and I immediately started laughing because after running like a girl for 10 yards, he slid five yards before anyone could ever touch him. Then he gets up with a tough guy look on his face and a fist pump worth of "first down". We said it at the same time, "Oh boy Tom, you are really a tough guy."

    What I cited earlier is that the threat of run can open intermediate zones in the NFL. The run is a bonus. The run is the thing about shotgun that makes the head coach cringe and the defenses blood boil. Why would your blood boil as a defense? Well let's face it:

    You can't hit a receiver past five yards. You can't use the free safety as an "enforcer" in the middle of the field. You can't hit the quarterback below the legs in the pocket. You can't hit the quarterback in the head. All of which you do not have to worry about in high school.

    So what is your response in the NFL? The response to all of these rule changes was the similar to the Tampa 2 with a deep zone drop of coverage personell in the hook zones. They flooded the zones with depth to keep every receiver in front of them. At the end of all that, the guy wearing the skirt takes off and runs with the ball because you only rush four and the guy you have had watching the QB (FS) is now 40 yards down the field.

    Henne has yet to change a play at the line of scrimmage this season. We do not run spread. He doesn't have to see the box. He has to see a clump. Clumps are described in the pro offense as groups of defenders. He has to identify clumps for two reasons: Is the offense odd or even? This has to be determined because it determines how a play will be blocked. What is the side of strength of the offense? In other words, which clump of defenders has six on their side of the ball.

    The learning of the Pro QB all starts there. Do you see Manning and Brady identifying a clump when they are in shotgun? That is what they are identifying. The man that they point to is the sixth man in the clump making it the strong side. How do I know this? I read a book. Is this still the verbage that they use? I don't know. But what I do know is that the 6/5 division of the defense has to be identified.

    Whether the odd or even defense still determines the blocking scheme for the play, I don't know. I could not see why it would change because it allows for the same play to be run (sweep, dive, ect) with a multitude of blocking schemes.

    Do you want to know the progress of your QB? Tell me when he starts identifying clumps. Tell me when he starts identifying the 6/5 split. Tell me when he is correctly identifying the the front as odd or even. When you start seeing him changing plays, he can identify all of this without a hitch.

    As of today, our QB runs the play called. Why? I do not know. But I do know that the play isn't changing at the line. So what in the heck is he doing? He is identifying coverages. He is identifying coverage techniques. A seldom discussed thing about the passing game is that route patterns change at the line of scrimmage according to the presnap look of the defense. Route patterns and receiver technique change according to the technique of the defender. Those two facts alone blow most QBs out of this league because they determine how and where the ball will be thrown.

    Do you want to coach? Put that on your QBs plate. Tell me definitively when he's got the QB/Receiver relationship down. Because once you determine that he's got that, you have more for him. But right now let's say you just want him throwing the ball where he should WHEN YOU CALL A PLAY.

    Have you ever watched Tom Brady or Peyton Manning from the shotgun pre-snap? They walk toward the line and yell. They walk to the line and yell again. They point to a pass defender on the perimeter. All of that is communication. All of it is communication with various offensive players about subjects that have been mentioned here. Why do they walk forward? They walk forward to make sure the line can here them. They are back there looking at the defense. Whether they change a play is irrelevant. Things are being communicated even if they are running the play called in the huddle.

    Would you want Chad Henne changing plays? Would you want that thought interfering with his ability to study the secondary when you call pass? Before you answer that question I will remind you that he had zero interceptions BEFORE the trash interception at the conclusion of the Jets game. Progress? I would say so.

    So if Henne is not changing plays and Henne can see the defense why would you move him back there? Would you move him back there to run? Obviously not. There is a reason why QBs stop running in the NFL. In the NFL it is their arm and brain that matters. Any QB that decides to run alot (like he learned in his college spread) will be hurt. They are not half of the athlete that will be tackling them. YOU might as well go get hit by Ray Lewis. You would fare just as well.

    Why do I mention the obvious? Yet another rule change. The rules are changed in the NFL for the average fan. It's not changed for me. I hate all of the rule changes. I love defensive football. Every year coaches go into the competition committee and discuss rule changes. Number one on their list is always protecting the QB. The QB sells the game and quite frankly the NFL does not have enough of them. Why do they not have enough of them? They are not prepared in the College ranks for what the NFL will ask them to do. Sure you have QBs that come from a play action college offense but they had nothing on their plate near what the Pros will demand. So what rule change protects the QB on the run? Slide.... When did "slide" come about? About the same time all QBs started lining up in shotgun.

    Now let's say you are the coach of this prodigy. Have you seen Chad Henne run this year? I have not seen him run. Sure I saw him run back to the line of scrimmage and fall but I view that as a sack. What I'm talking about is an obvious "The zones are flooded and I'm taking off." You have not seen it. Why do you think you have not seen it? For one thing, he's running backwards at the snap of the ball. You (the coach) discouraged him from running from that simple fact. You coached him to protect the ball (with two hands) as soon as he feels pressure. He's damn good at that. You have coached him that if he slides out of the pocket to head toward the sideline. You have coached your receivers to come back to him when he escapes the pocket. And you coached that quarterback to throw the ball away when nothing is there when he's out of the pocket. In no uncertain circumstance will he run. You (the coach) have discouraged it at every opportunity.

    You will eventually find Chad Henne in the shotgun. At the point in which his tool chest is full, the QB coach will tell him at pratice - "If you see nothing there in the passing game and they are giving you 10 free yards - take it." But Chad Henne doesn't have a full tool chest. And they do not want him running. I don't want him running. Why? Because I (similar to the coaches) do not want him to get himself killed. Do you remember Mark Sanchez being taught to slide last year? That was a joke. I don't want my quarterbacks learning to slide because in the grand scheme of things - for a young QB, it's a waste of time. He's got far more important things to learn.
     
  9. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Great Write ups, very enlightening....thanks a lot :up:

    I totally agree with the last part pertaining to Henne.

    He's got a lot more to work on and get better at before he or the coaches are confident enough to allow him to take off up field.

    And like I said before, I'm not too concerned that's he's not totally comfortable in the shotgun yet. Probably for many of the reasons you stated above I'm sure that will come with experience.
     
  10. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    Thanks for answering before I asked the question. I remembered a GREAT QB who did not like the shotgun. Thought it was Montana but, could not recall.
     
  11. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    i always wondered what the QB was pointing at, because they usually aren't a blitzer...its the "6th guy." makes sense now
     
  12. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He didnt struggle per se when you look at the overall statline but he struggled to make plays downfield vs Minnesota and Buffalo who played shell on us all game. You take out the 46 yard pass to Marshall vs Minnesota and Henne's stats look extremely pedestrian. I believe Minnesota ran a blitz on the Marshall pass so they werent in their standard Cover 2. I'm not bashing Henne, I think he can do fine vs shell or any other type of coverage but he will have to improve his touch and arc to do so. He struggles to drop passes over a LB with depth and in front of a safety. Its one of the hardest throws to make but I have not seen him do it regularly yet. That said, I expect him to continue improving...there is a reason I felt he was the best qb in the 08 class :wink2:
     

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