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The QB End Game

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Pariah, Dec 31, 2010.

  1. Pariah

    Pariah Revolutionary

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    We will and can continue to argue and debate about Henne until next season, but the reality is, he is going nowhere.

    Now that doesn't mean he will start, but at this point in his career, the regime (whoever it is), would be stupid to do anything with him but let him stick around, and compete for a job next season.

    I am not happy with the kid, he made some bad mistakes, and at times looked pathetic - but there were also streaks of play where he showed tons of talent. On top of it all he was a victim of playing behind a fragmented line that was a revolving door all season, a poor running game, a lack of real Speed anywhere around him, and even if you love Henning, his play calling was very questionable at times (understatement of 2010 imo). Now add in the fact the kid couldn't audible and was on a leash with the coaches...and this all adds up to a grab bag of bad QB play, bad situations, and bad decisions by coaching.

    The End Game here is we need to keep him around, but we also can't be reactive, and must be proactive by either drafting someone to compete, or making a move for a QB who is of starting caliber. Throw in a new OC and QB coach, and whoever excels over the time before opening day, gets the damn job.

    SO hate him or support him, he will be in Miami next season and he will be competing to play. And maybe with the right progression/relationship with a new OC/QB Coach, he becomes a solid player in the NFL, as we have seen flashes of such already. And if he doesn't get better, so we have a young arm, or a Free Agent pickup who earns the starting job, and a backup in Henne who in my opinion would be better than most backups in the league.

    Just wanted to throw this out there...
     
  2. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    The first thing we need is an OC. I like McDaniels from the group of currently available guys. He squeezed more out of Orton than anyone thought possible, and Tebow has exceeded all but the most optimistic expectations as well. Matt Cassel is a McD guy also. I'm in favor of letting him come in, design an offense around Henne and give the guy a year (at least) to show what he can do. Not the sexiest option, but it looks a lot better than anything else we could be doing at this point.
     
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  3. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I've seen few calls to cut Henne. They're out there, sure, but the majority of posters (particularly those branded "haters") aren't calling for Henne to be cut loose. They're calling for another QB to be brought in. To some that means giving up on Henne, but it should mean that the front office is making sure that if Henne doesn't take that next step there's at least an option other than Tyler Thigpen available.
     
  4. Pariah

    Pariah Revolutionary

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    Exactly, just be proactive rather than reactive.

    But much of the endless debate about Henne (especially the more argumentative and irrational ones), should be curbed, because he will be back, and if he is good going into the season, and better than anyone else we have - he will more than likely be the starter.
     
  5. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    So the "end game" is "let's replace everyone else involved with the offense."

    Thanks for clearing that situation up for me.
     
  6. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    I think we're sort of stuck with him next year. I don't think we can give up just yet.....But, I don't see a better option.
     
  7. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Yes but could we stop throwing everyone else under the bus until the most important position on the field improves?
     
  8. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Baby steps. It took 4 straight horrible weeks for the option of bringing someone in to compete with Henne appeared.
     
  9. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    :lol:

    Do you mean I'm not alone in noticing the desire to scorch the earth with a firewall around one man?
     
  10. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Well, there are some that need to be thrown under the bus. Henning, I really do think needs to be, just based on
    just absurd play calling...I mean, consistant, year in year out PA passes in just....Positions where it's......Terrible...That
    alone, he needs to go.

    I don't think the team is that bad, talent wise. We've just got to get a game breaker at WR. I really wish wed've kept Ginn
    just one more year because I really think he'd've been a compliment to Marshall.

    At any rate, I don't see much better realistic options at QB for us..Specially if Luck goes back to Stanford.
     
  11. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I think Nolan is still pretty safe :lol: It's not time to begin an objective discussion of the talent on offense that could stand an upgrade, because to do that pretty much means that an objective analysis of Henne has to be done first. It's too inflammatory to bring up the subject without getting a wall of splits right now.
     
  12. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I once had a high school offensive coordinator tell me his team had a 25 percent chance of completing a pass while competing against AIR. I think that team threw 25 passes for the entire season. Why did he even throw? For the threat of it. You play with the cards you are dealt.

    Really? Ted Ginn is where you are? I've seen it dude. There were receivers running open down field all year. The ball had to be thrown and it was not thrown. This dude was on a mission this year. He was on a mission to play "smart". That's where "Checkdown Chad" originated. It's not some grand conspiracy. This dude checked down all year until he trapped himself into deep is no surprise.

    There is not a better option other than a veteran. This Head Coach is not going to train another QB for another Heach Coach. Do you actually think this coach could survive a second feeding frenzy? The fact is that he trained a QB that this football city had begged to be trained. Everything was kosher until the QB played a full season and he played like crap. I am absolutely amazed by the short memory from everyone involved. The only people that I understand participating in the lynch mob is the beat writers. Afterall, they have to write about something.
     
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  13. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I stopped reading after the opening sentence. You acnkowledge that there is a debate, and then claim that one side of the debate is reality and the other is not. Pffft!
     
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  14. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Please dude. Bad play calling is bad play calling. You don't call a PA pass when there is NO threat of the run. Please dude. Don't tell me you think the PA pass on 3rd and 13 is valid. Please.

    Ted Ginn was just a museing..But, even at that? Where's the big play been this year? Ginn gave us more big plays than anyone since....God..I don't even know...Now, that tells you what sort of state we've been in and, Ginn blew as many big plays as he made, but, what other option was there? Not many.

    We've got to stick with Henne. We've got to. I don't see any other option at QB in the draft at our position, or in FA..Maybe there is, but, I think we need to stick in one more year.....Sort of like Sparano. He might as well dance with the girl he kissed.
     
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  15. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    There are alot of more options at QB. Don't be silly.
     
  16. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Really?

    Who? I mean, don't name BS trade theories that include us bundleing up bad players for a great qb.
     
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  17. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    henne hater or dolphin lover without illusion?

    regardless, henne will not be under center in 2011
    we have two competent back-ups @ QB
    both can compete & provide stability on the bench
    the decision maker will be "the trade"
    who is more valuable & what we can get for them
    the pigpen or henne, it makes no difference to me
    re-building the offense is the concern & priority

    GoFish!:dolphin:
     
  18. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Then expect Nolan to leave, there is very bad blood between those two.
     
  19. Colorado Dolfan

    Colorado Dolfan ...dirty drownin' man?

    1) Where is the bad blood between them? Is that just an assumption you made? ...or have you actually read that there is a problem between them? Living in Colorado, there was never any report of friction, just that their coaching methods just didn't mesh.

    2) You honestly believe a grown-*** man won't coexist with someone that he doesn't have to answer to? McDaniels isn't going to have a finger in Nolan's proverbial pie like in Denver. The belief that Nolan will quit because McDaniels is hired is beyond ridiculous and borders on insulting to the man. If Nolan doesn't come back it'll be because he found a better position, not because someone he doesn't like got hired.
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Ahhh, so instead we should throw the QB under the bus until everyone else on the field improves or recovers health wise? :glare:
     
  21. Auburn

    Auburn New Member

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    Would signing McNabb be so bad?
     
  22. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

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    First off, new OC. Preferably a young fresh guy and not a tired old retread. Second, DRAFT A QB. Whatever it takes Draft a bonafide 1st round QB. Trade up and get one of the top guys available. Pull a Ditka for all I care, but get a QB. Well, maybe not a Ditka but do something to secure a top QB pick.

    As for Henne, I agree he is not going anywhere and I wouldn't complain if he was the backup eventually, but I don't want him as the starter.
     
  23. Auburn

    Auburn New Member

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    I am biased and I'd love us to grab Newton, he is the next Steve Young, I tell you. SEC is as tough a conf. as they come. But if not that, grab McNabb. Henne is not the answer I fear.
     
  24. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

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    WAR EAGLE! I like Newton but he'll need some work. I don't have any real interest in Donovan anymore. The Donovan of 4 or 5 years ago, but not anymore.
     
  25. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    yes.
     
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  26. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Henne is more of the answer than McNabb is, and while McNabb is declining, Henne is ascending. Ditching Henne with the hopes that McNabb can have one last hoorah does nothing to move this franchise forward. Again, we need to get OUT of the mentality that has us going through QB after QB the past 10 years. People need to chill out and let an offense develop rather than constantly trying to force it. We'll NEVER have a QB with this impatient approach.

    What about McNabb's current play inspires ANY hope? He doesn't fit this offense IMO. We could bring him in, but I'd bet $1000 that Henne would beat him out. People don't put enough emphasis on just how tough it would be for ANY QB to succeed in this style offense this year based on the plethora of problems it's had. If anyone thinks Matt Ryan would have the same type of season here that he's had in Atlanta, then you're sorely mistaken! Ditto on Flacco & Freeman. These guys would've struggled in this offense just as Henne has. I guarantee it.

    When Miami is playing "its" style of game, Henne is actually a stud..... but unfortunately our offensive problems have kept us out of "our style of play" for most of the season. That's a fact Jack.
     
  27. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    I agree we will draft one I am sure, but Henne will get one more year with or without Sparano and company.
     
  28. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    FWIW, it would not surprise me if Chad Henne is traded right before the Draft or during the Draft.

    I think people are not looking at the whole of the failure on offense, if you bring back the same guys what would make anyone think there will be a different result?
     
  29. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i think that would be a mistake. not saying henne is guaranteed of figuring it out but what he's going through isnt that unusual for a young QB. I think the strategy should be to bring in a vet QB to challenge Henne and see whether Henne can improve this offseason. Henne has done good things at times this year. He just cant seem to put it all together. Thats pretty common for young QBs. You play in streaks and flashes. For the successful ones, eventually it slows down for them and they put it all together consistently. We'll see. I think he deserves one more year. I think its too early to get rid of him
     
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  30. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I like mcdaniels as a cordinator but you have to remember brandon marshall and mike nolan are still part of this team.I am not sure the 3 could coexist.
     
  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    We'll Adamp, I suspect the decks will be cleared one way or another, the past 3 games, so called "must win" games and Henne has had 1 good game?
     
  32. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Because people are not static
     
  33. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I agree mcnabb is washed up but saying josh freeman would not suceed here is being is crazy.I would argue our talent is better than bucs and he has 23 tds and only 6 picks.No comparision.
    I have watched him from the pocket and he is as cool as matt ryan.
    Doesn't panic keeps is focus downfield instead of looking at the ground and running into the defensive lineman like a certain other qb who will remain nameless.
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Talent is talent, if you have it you can make almost any offensive system work, when you don't, it won't work no matter what you do, the idea that "we are a OC away" is not the case. we need 2 OL's, 2 rb's, #2 Te etc
     
  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    talent is talent and talent improves.
     
  36. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    you could be right? this FO has no problems getting rid of people but I still think it would be a mistake
     
  37. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Freeman is as cool as Matt Ryan b/c he has decent protection, a solid ground game that picks up consistent positive yardage, an elite receiving TE to help bail him out, great outlet backs, and MULTIPLE playmakers at WR...... basically he's in an offense that has an identity. Their entire offense has playmakers at every skill position. Our talent is not better than the Bucs. Yes, Brandon Marshall is better than anyone they have, but ONE player doesn't determine or sway the overall talent level when there's 11 positions involved as well as depth behind it.

    Freeman would NOT be doing here what he does in TB w/o all his weapons around him, without a ground game to fall back on, without a solid Oline, and without a quality OC. No way no how is it happening. Have you forgotten that Thigpen was a starter at KC? Did you see how he looked in this offense? He looked like he should be playing high school football. Do you honestly feel that Freeman would've made something out of ALL of our 2nd & 3rd and longs without the help of his playmakers, especially considering our WRs/TEs aren't the kind of guys as a group you want running routes on 3rd & long etc. Do you think Freeman would have as many TDs when he's taken out in the redzone for the WC or when Sparano plays for FGs or when he's lacking redzone targets? (and don't say it's b/c Henne cant be trusted in the redzone b/c he's performed about the same as Freeman has inside the 20)

    This team is set up to be conservative, to run the ball and pick up positive yardage, and put us in low risk-high percentage 3rd and manageable situations. That's why we have Bess & Marshall rather than Mike Williams & Benn. What part of Freeman's 51 QR rating, 4.2 ave, 0 TDs, 1 INT, and a miserable 36% 1st down conversion rate per attempt on 3rd and normal situations makes you believe he would succeed here compared to Henne's 119 QB rating, 8.1 ave, 4 TDs, 0 INTs and 63% conversions?

    This offense flounders b/c we've been in such a ridiculous amount of 2nd & 3rd and longs that it's destroyed us. Do you think that Freeman would all of a sudden make Fasano, Bess, and Marshall better downfield receivers when defenses know their slow selves are coming? Do you think Freeman would make Wallace and Moore play like 1st round picks rather than the undrafted rookies they are? Is Freeman going to do the same with whatever bum we've had at #2 TE all year? Does Josh keep Marshall, Hartline, Fasano, Long, Carey and the rest of the crew from getting injured? How do you think Freeman throws when half of his snaps are now stupid play-action to where his eyes are taken away from the field?

    On 1st down and also redzone plays, Henne is pretty close to Freeman regarding performance, which says a lot considering our offensive problems as a whole (where as Freeman really hasn't had problems to deal with). The big difference between the 2 guys is that Freeman has been the benefactor of more positive yards from 1st down runs. Freeman: (63) 2nd and 1-7 yard plays compared to (79) 2nd & 8+. Henne: only (48) 2nd & 1-7 with (109) 2nd and 8+. This lack of first down production sets the entire tone of each drive, ESPECIALLY when you're an offense like ours. However, when we pick up positive yards on 1st down (like our philosophy wants to accomplish), Henne is lights out better than Freeman on 2nd and 3rd combined.

    Blount on 1st down: 5.8 YPC, 646 yards.
    Earnest Graham on 1st: 8.1 YPC, 81 yards.

    Ricky Williams on 1st down: 3.86 YPC, 347 yards.
    Ronnie Brown on 1st down: 3.98 YPC, 395 yards.

    Ricky & Ronnie combine for 11 1st downs on 3rd down carries (3.86 YPC)
    Cadillac Williams has 10 1st down conversion all by himself (10.6 YPC)

    This right here, this is where it all starts. This is what allows Freeman to thrive. This is what keeps defenses honest as well as having Williams, Benn, and Winslow. Defenses have to account for all these guys, and they have to do so while trying to stop a strong ground game. Sorry, but there is NO comparison to what Henne is afforded in Miami compared to Freeman in TB. Henne is the beneficiary of absolutely NOTHING. He has to manufacture every bit of his success. Freeman is the beneficiary of an offense that clicks in general.

    There's a LOT more to a QBs play than simply looking at the stats. Gotta dig below the surface level.
     
  38. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    IF the Oline and ground game are doing their jobs, then there should be no reason that Henne is put into the position where he has to take his eyes off his receivers in the first place. You're right, it's Chad's fault that the Oline has been a spaghetti strainer lately. :wink2:
     
  39. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    It depends on what you are working with. Sparano was gushing earlier this year about Chad Henne making it to his third read. Usually the third read is on the other side of the field but many times the third is on the same side of the field. So here we have Sparano gushing and we like it. But we don't even know if that gushing originates from a single side high/low to play action RB in the flat.

    I have said it before about playcalling and I will say it again. The playbook is huge. The game plan relative to the playbook is not. Now you look at 3rd and 13 play action and say "WTF?" I look at 3rd and 13 and ask "Have we run on 3 and 13 before?" The answer to that question is yes and it cannot be denied. To that fact you say "WTF?" So to say there is no threat of the run is false. The same linebackers that must play the run cannot drop immediately to a 10 yard depth for the risk of getting their butt ran over for the next 3 yards. You do understand the lanes that are cleared from a linebacker or linebackers NOT being at that depth right? The next reason you would call a PA is to get the pass protection from the RB. The RB on play action is also many times the 3rd read to the high/low play side. Now ask yourself this question.

    Do you actually know how many passing plays this QB goes into a game with? Do you know the volume of the game plan? Did you know that last year he was only reading ONE defensive player and letting it fly to one of two receivers? Do you know where that progress stands as of today? When you know all of that and you know of it to be excelling - you can criticize the playcaller. I don't criticize the playcaller. I probably never will because I will never know what he is dealing with in terms of depth of knowledge and abiliity. Simililarly, I don't criticize the QB. I raise questions (that I find) very few others will.

    Do not misunderstand. I think there is a time and place for criticism of both and we are on the cusp of that moment. But I think you have to go into that moment with ALL of the information that Tony Sparano has at his disposal. If they go into 2011 with the same QB, protecting the QB from himself is not an option in playcalling. If they participate in the endeavor, ONE guy made a mistake. That guy was Tony Sparano. How would the other two make a mistake? The QB didn't advance. The playcaller didn't force advancement upon him.

    You see, I don't buy the regress argument. I don't buy it because Henne's advancement was not within our grasp. He advanced or didn't advance in places we can't see unless we have the endzone view (facing him) and a knowledge of what passing play was called. Chad Henne did not regress. He played the exact same game that he played last year. The only question that remains is did he do it while increasing the progression in reads? If he increased that progression but play the same game - he advanced. It was simply the next step that HE would take.

    I see that you are buying into the "no playmaker" myth. I'd like to ask you how many times you saw the ball thrown to this guy and he disappointed. I think he has come through more often than not. The ball has to be thrown.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81c3a166/Hartline-grabs-a-pass-for-24-yards

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81c7c329/Henne-to-WR-Hartline-26-yd-pass

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...ea-flicker-results-in-long-catch-for-Hartline

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81bf2b3d/QB-Henne-to-WR-Hartline-34-yd-pass

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81bf236b/QB-Henne-to-WR-Hartline-31-yd-pass

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa4519/Hartline-TD-catch

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81adf943/QB-Henne-to-WR-Hartline-28-yd-pass

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81a3b36d/Hartline-s-2-yard-TD-catch
     
  40. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    It was reported more than once that McDaniels & Nolan fought last year. I remember hearing Casserly on CBS make it the focal point of one of his segments last year on CBS pre-game. And yes I do believe Nolan will leave if McDaniels is brought in. But I think Nolan will be gone anyways, to Houston as the HC if Cowher doesn't get the gig there.
     

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