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****The Official 2016-2017 NBA Thread****

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Section126, Jul 1, 2016.

  1. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    individual Def. Rating is flawed. Hassan I believe was 1st overall, and I have made clear his issues guarding P&R.
     
  2. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Sometimes stats don't really do players justice as to what they really are. The problem with defensive ratings is it weights steals and blocks disproportionately. I would argue that Thompsons 107 and Hardens 107 are very different because Thompson routinely guards the other teams best wing player and as a result his stats don't look as good. Lilliard I agree with you but they will always use his height and slight build as an excuse. Harden doesn't have that. Derozan has always been an interesting player for me. Offensively the fact that he's a tweener plays well but defensively he seems to slow to guard quick twos or players that are more shooters then slashers and at the three he's overpowered at times.

    Back to Harden the other problem is he isn't a quick twitch player by NBA standards. Coming out the biggest knock on him was his lack of speed and explosion which at the 2 can be concerning. Offensively he does a great job making it work. Defensively, it's harder because of the fact it's a reactionary part of the game so if you're slow or your instincts are slow it looks disastrous. Which is how Harden often looks. He also routinely refuses to fight over picks. He plays passing lanes well as a way of ball denial and to compensate for his slow foot speed but at times he does as a way to compensate for being lazy on that end of the court
     
  3. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Fair enough. So when judging individual defense, what is your go-to stat?
     
  4. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Do you take into account that he plays all 82 games every year, leads the league in minutes every year, takes the most contact every year, and literally has to carry a high pace offense every year?

    You expect him to be a shutdown defender too? When is the guy supposed to get a breath?
     
  5. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    A lot of those arguments are arguments I've used when talking about Anthony over the years. Some of it holds weight IMO because he carries a huge burden on offense and then has to conserve some energy on defense because he has no one else who can carry the team for long stretches on offense.

    There are a few problems with it. He doesn't take contact well and I think it would be fair question his willingness to mix it up when it comes time to go in the paint and get a tough rebound, take a charge, dive for a loose ball etc. I don't expect him to be a shutdown defender...you don't take someone like that and ask them to be Tony Allen. But I can question his effort and willingness to defend. That's where I think he can improve
     
  6. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    I dig it. All I am saying is 2 years ago, Trevor Ariza and Donatas Motiejunas stepped up offensively. Harden didn't have to work as hard offensively and became one of the better defensive players in the league. He was voted MVP by the players.

    Last year, Ariza fell off and D-Mo broke his back. Harden did what he had to do in order to carry a bunch a scrubs to the playoffs. He had no help, and the media punished him for it even though he had a historical individual season.

    He's got it in him. He just needs help on offense, so that he can get the defense going again.
     
  7. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    I look at Def. win Shares per 48 as a primer, but I look at his defensive dashboard, and on the ball FG%, and cover FG% above all. Then you look at the FG% on the ball in P&R, which is the very best indicator.

    The problem with Harden is that he does not try on D. I think it has to do with his considerable responsibility on Offense. I have SEEN him play good defense. He has even had good stretches of good D, but it;s hard to do THAT and also have the Usage rate and efficiency he has on Offense. LeBron James runs into that. Wade ran into that as well.

    Harden is a cinch MVP if the Rockets can move up into a top 3 seed. He is currently having (yeah, small sample . lol) the best offensive season in modern history. Maybe EVER in the advanced stat era.
     
  8. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yep. He's making me look very wrong about him, and I love it.

    On the other hand, at what point do we start worrying about Winslow's offense? He's been pretty brutal. As ecstatic as I was that he fell to us, my biggest worry was that Devin Booker would realize his potential and we'd kick ourselves for missing out on him. It's early, but Booker looks like a budding star.
     
  9. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Winslow is going to be fine. His offense was always going to take time and it's easy to forget how young he is. That's like me asking why Porzingis isn't averaging 25 a night yet...soon enough young fella.
     
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  10. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    I can deal with the ugliness til the All Star Break. At that point check in more seriously on his shooting percentages and whatnot. He's sort of a rookie right now in that they're putting a ton on his plate, and it shows; he's less focused on the defensive end too.

    This isn't a popular one, but I think the best comp for Justise is Marcus Smart. A bigger, more athletic version. He'd should take that kind of role, imo. Facilitator with 2nd unit, close games as secondary ballhandler/PnR with starters, slasher, sorta spacer, tough perimeter defender, scrappy high IQ guy on both ends. Celtics fans say the same things we do: 'the boxscore doesn't tell you his impact on the game.' Very similar players, at least for the foreseeable future.

    I really doubt Justise will ever be a top 2 scoring option. Booker will have to be a #1 or #2, cause he's so limited in other areas. Question is whether he's a *good stats bad team* volume/usage type of guy. Hard to know players like that until you see them compete in the playoffs when defenses tighten up. Fun to watch though. For me TJ and JRich ease any regrets over not taking Booker. Love both our guys. Hell of a draft class though, eh?
     
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  11. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    That was a damn good game. Nice win in San Antonio. Harden with 24 points, 15 assists, 12 rebounds. Finished the 8 game road trip at 5-3...that was the goal. I'm impressed with what Dantoni has been able to accomplish so far. Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon...not bad, fellas.
     
  12. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    ....sup?
     
  13. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Last night was cool. Great game to watch. The young dudes got up and competed like hell. Game had the extra juice we hoped.

    But we're 2-5 and just lost Dragic for at least a couple games with a sprained ankle. Coming up: Jazz, @Spurs, Hawks, Bucks, @Wiz.

    Also McGruder>Dion
     
  14. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Wade said he couldnt wait till the game was over, and it felt weird. He didnt want the Heat to lose.
     
  15. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    He's going to be disappointed about 45 more times this year
     
  16. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    I kid you not, Derrick Rose has to be one of the worst starting PG's in the league. He is a SG in a PG body who insists on leaving his feet every time he makes a pass, half of which get intercepted. I cannot wait til he's gone. Garbage is not a strong enough term.

    And watching the refs officiate this Knicks Celtics game as inconsistently as they have, in conjunction with Rose, is nauseating. Tony Brothers as an official couldn't hold my jock and I only called High School PAL games.
     
  17. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    They just called a jump ball when the Celtics player had a full foot out of bounds and the other foot on the line. How the hell does that happen? Get a damn pair of contacts.
     
  18. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Rose needs to finish a healthy season first... then i say he should focus an offseason purely in the post.. i doubt hes in the plans for the Knicks.. but its still a young season he may get better, or be out for season again
     
  19. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Le Batard says Wade told the Heat he did not want them courting Kevin Durant and refused to take a pay cut to help them bring Durant to Miami.
     
  20. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    New to the forum, in need of help. Coming to Miami in March for the Heat-Pelicans game. Budget is about $200 for tickets but for really good ones I'll go higher, possibly $350. Any ideas on best place to buy or know of anyone willing to sell?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
     
  21. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Rose to me was always a SG in a PG body. His game was never facilitating an offense, but being the focal point. His game demands the ball being in his hands though, so he just has to set guys up more than you'd like him to since he's ball dominant.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
     
  22. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Ball dominant may be an understatement. He makes Carmelo look like Jason Kidd. Even less of a good brand of basketball then usual to watch.
     
  23. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Honestly...with uniforms like that? (Worst I've ever seen in an American basketball game) you can't expect to win much


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  24. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Heh, Knicks benched rose for stretches tonight for Justin Holliday and the offense and especially the defense was massively better. Sure Dallas offense without Dirk sucks, but who knew Holliday was the best player the Knicks received in the Rose trade?
     
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  25. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    It was a bricks party by both teams in San Antonio tonight. How ridiculously frustrating to watch
     
  26. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    Live from the Internet.
    I mean...we have Dion. We are a Lance away from being a full blown construction crew squad.
     
  27. JShady

    JShady Miami Heat lover

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    The Miami Heat will draft who in the 2017 draft?
     
  28. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    This Heat team does play hard, if not well. We were never going into San Antonio without Dragic and winning. Let alone with Dragic.

    Babbitt's being exploited, especially by teams that play two quality bigs (Gobert-Favors, LMA-Gasol) which you'd expect. That position is such a void for us, just not sure what you do with these guys. Tonight we get the Dwight-Millsap frontcourt, so...ugh. I don't expect this game to be close, Atlanta's playing extremely well.

    Tyler Johnson is definitely the biggest bright spot of the season for me. He's playing his a$$ off in every aspect of the game. Whiteside's been dominant at times, and even then every game I can count a handful of simple plays where he costs us. Frustrating guy. Hoping he keeps his head on straight as we lose more games.

    Speaking of that, I think I had a dream last night that involved Markelle Fultz.
     
  29. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hopefully Markelle Fultz, Dennis Smith, Harry Giles, or Frank Ntilikina.
     
  30. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    A #1/#2 scoring option type who can play with Whiteside. So not a center, and if it's a PF, he should be able to shoot.

    One advantage we have right now is that TJ, JRich, and Justise are all two-way high IQ players who can fill/defend different positions and roles, as starters or off the bench. They can fit with pretty much any type of guy.

    The top of the draft is insanely loaded at PG, should we end up picking that high.

    The Miami Heat Beat blog people saying that Heat are looking to trade Goran before deadline.
     
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  31. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It would be nice if they could get a 1st round draft pick for him. If the Kings are still interested, getting their 1st would be nice.
     
  32. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If ugly kept you from winning Patrick Ewing and Latrell Spreewell would have had very brief careers. If there was a hall of fame of ugly, those two would have been first-ballot.
     
  33. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Two ball busting losses in a row to San Antonio and Atlanta. Two good teams, but Heat had both ready to be beaten and then somebody does something stupid. Without Dragic, Ellington and Winslow, I guess that was as good as you can expect.
     
  34. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    I was really surprised at their performance last night. Spo deserves a lot of credit, night 2 of a b2b against a hot team and without several key players. Team is scrappy and will defend their butts off. But offensively those last few minutes were just so painful to watch.

    Whiteside seems to get up for matchups with big name guys like Dwight. He was un-freaking-real on the glass.
     
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  35. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Which men exactly do you think are cute?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  36. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Good and much needed win
     
  37. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Yeah needed for sure. Dion was actually awesome tonight. I thought the Bucks would be better. Total meltdown in 4Q. We stayed with it, kept attacking, shots fell!
     
  38. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Patrick Beverly is back!!! Now we finally look like that team from preseason. Nice blowout win against Portland. Capela is becoming a double-double machine. Dekker has become one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. Harden is getting a triple-double every game now. I like where this thing is going. 7-5. On to Utah.
     
  39. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm secure enough in my sexuality, that I don't have any problem admitting a good looking man. I don't exactly describe men as cute, though. You are more than welcome let me know your opinions on the matter, however. No judgments here.

    At the end of the day, though, ugly is ugly and those two guys have ugly in spades. I'd be surprised if dogs are even willing to play with them.
     
  40. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    It's amazing how much better looking some guys are with a pocket full of money. Those guys have likely had about 15x more women than most of you guys in their lifetime. Not me though..


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

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