Next year, would expect Piazza, Raines, Bagwell and Schilling getting the votes. dont think Mussina gets in (maybe Vet Committee oneday). And still love that Bonds and Clemens and McGwire, and Sosa continue to get properly smacked down.
Dont agree about Bonds - regardless of his cream use, in his first 10 years he was amazing. A 10+ war player twice.....let that sink in. That was way before the steroid use. He was probably the best raw hitter baseball has ever seen. Quick hands, hand eye coordination and reactions arent enhanced by steriods and those were Barry's greatest attributes. I know this isnt going to be taken positively here, but Bonds, MCGwire and Sosa - saved baseball. Without the HR chases, i think baseball dies a slow death in the 90's.
for now its fun, but eventually its realistic to expect entrance will be granted (just based on turnover of the voters, or Vet Committee softening)....but the longer it lasts, fine by me. For me, the length of time someone was clean and put up numbers, will never sway me to forgive those that tarnished those stats with tainted ones. Anyone who finally turns 40yrs old and then rapes someone, is still a rapist, I dont give them 39 years of praise or credit for not raping till then.
If a player is good enough to get into the HOF then he should go in, especially if he never failed a PED test before hand. It's a slippery slope to say Player A, like Piazza or Bagwell for example, shouldn't go in because he "might" have used and then having no problem voting in Player B, Smoltz or Biggio for example, because he's never been linked to them before because the bottom line is we just don't know who did what. The hypocritical part of the whole thing is, besides from really not knowing who did what and when, is that there are probably a couple of guys in the HOF already that took steroids of HGH or whatever and probably 95% of the guys in the HOF already took greenies back in the day when they are available in the clubhouses, which are illegal and tested for now. So should we throw those guys out of the HOF? If not then why should we punish someone like Clemens or Bonds for using PEDs when they weren't banned or tested for when they were playing? The whole thing is simply a joke. The HOF is a museum, not a Church. And unfortunately the people that vote think they are the judge/jury/executioner or have to take a moral stand or worse try to make the voting process about them and not the player. But that's just me.
Put me in the same category. Greenies, cocaine, yellow jackets all performance enhancers in the 60's - late 80's. Some could say tobacco use can be a performance enhancer. I also think it's time for ole "Charlie hustle" to get his due. 4000 hits ain't ever happening again.
He gives me a pause. He bet on games while he was playing/managing. He claims he only bet on his team to win but who knows. Even if he did he could have indirectly changed the outcomes of other games in which he didn't bet by holding back on using players etc. Surprisingly I don't have an issue with Rose being out.
They were great players beforehand but they made their choices. They wanted to stay at the top of the game longer so they cheated so that their bodies would become unnaturally strong for their age. I wouldn't be pissed if they were voted in but I have no problem with them being left out either. I don't feel sorry for them for a second. You don't have to be a preacher to be against cheating or to want your children and children's children to have a shot at excelling in professional sports without having to put PEDs into their bodies.
they are absolutely not...you get no more fast twitch muscles fibers or increased reaction times with steriod use. Steriods just allow you to build more muscle mass, which in turn gives you more stregnth. When muscles are stressed, they usually become fatigued and break down, a catabolic effect. Anabolic steroids override the catabolic effect and shorten the recovery time from workouts. There is not one shred of science that says PED's or steriods increased anyone's reaction time or made them faster.
im thinking you have no clue how science works...lol I could go on and on about the effects of nicotine and caffeine in the blood system and what it can do for vision, alertness and blood flow, but this excerpt from a national orthopadic journal says enough. Nicotine activates the sympathoadrenal system, which leads to increased heart rate, contractility, vasoconstriction and a rise in blood pressure and the level of circulating catecholamines during light exercise.[85] Nicotine also increases muscle blood flow[86] and lipolysis due to enhanced circulating levels of norepinephrine and epinephrine as well as direct action on nicotinic cholinergic receptors in adipose tissue.[87] The effects exerted by nicotine may be beneficial in a wide variety of sports and it is suggested that nicotine is abused by athletes.[83] According to Marclay,[88] cumulative exposure to nicotine metabolites were found in 26% - 56% of urine samples that were subjected to screening for tobacco alkaloids. After correcting for exposure to second-hand smoke, 15% of the athletes were considered active nicotine consumers. Among athletes, this is high considering the WHO's 25% worldwide estimate of smoking prevalence. It can be hypothesized that the metabolites stem mostly from smokeless tobacco due to the adverse effects of conventional cigarettes for athletes, which most severely affects athletes engaging in endurance type sports.[89] Further, a large number of human and animal studies have found nicotine-induced improvements in several aspects of cognitive function, including learning and memory,[90] reaction time[91] and fine motor abilities (see Table 2). Studies addressing the question of a direct performance enhancing effect of nicotine are rare but will be summarized here. Sports most affected include ice hockey, skiing, biathlon, bobsleigh, skating, football, basketball, volleyball, rugby, American football, wrestling and gymnastics. These sports seem to gain performance benefits from the stimulating effect of nicotine as evident from the use of other prohibited stimulants according to the Anti-Doping Database.[92] Muendel et al.[93] found a 17% improvement in time to exhaustion after nicotine patch application compared to a placebo without affecting cardiovascular and respiratory parameters or substrate metabolism. In this sense, nicotine seems to exert similar effects as caffeine by delaying the development of central fatigue as impaired central drive is an important factor contributing to fatigue during exercise. To date, no improvement on anaerobic performance (Wingate test) has been reported (see Table 2).
I am happy for Biggio but I have a major problem with a "stat accumulator" like Biggio getting in the HOF before Piazza just because Murray freakin Chass wrote a NY Times article stating how he saw "bacne" on Piazza which therefore is automatically linked to steroids. Pure garbage. Piazza was banging out 300/30/100RBI/6 WAR seasons as a catcher when Biggio was still deciding what position to play. Piazza's resume kicks the crap out of Biggio's. This is exactly what makes the Baseball HOF a joke. I say that as a Mets fan, but I also grew up a less then a half an hour from where Biggio grew up...
I agree, but these people who vote, put people through the ***-hole-meter first, and if they so decide that said player was any kind of an ******* at all, then "no vote for you". I think there needs to be a committee of people put together who know something about baseball, maybe played the gabe or coached it or both, who vote on they players. Not these schmucky writers who already have agendas.
Torn. I love Zobrist. The more I look at the prospects, and their swings. I think they project as major league hitters, but their nothing special at the MLB level as of right now.
I agree. There was a quote from one writer the other day who said he left Piazza off his ballot because he wasn't that talented. I nearly lost my ****.
Is it opening day yet? Seriously this offseason has really been dragging since that week where there were 10003912210 trades and FA signings in December.
Bold statement from someone trying to lump stimulants like nicotine and caffeine in with steroids... LOL Everybody knows that things like caffeine and nicotine can amp you up for a little bit. It's much different from putting things into your body that cause you to grow to unnatural size and strength in your late 30s and in your 40s. Nobody's going to convince me that a 40 year old ball player can maintain elite production by snorting a few lines of coke before a game.
I think you might be slightly dense, so im not going to waste my breath, but i will say nicotine highs have been proven to help improve vision for a small amount of time. So, a nicotine buzz can help a player, see the ball better, making it easier to identify pitches and hit better.
Loading up on carbs improves aerobic performance and makes you better at things like running. Science backs that up as well. Nobody's about to test runners for pasta. All I'm saying here is that the level to which your performance is enhanced by say nicotine is not comparable to the edge given by steroids. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath which is why I commented on your post to begin with. I clearly offended you by it, I don't know otherwise why you would constantly keep insulting my intelligence, so I'm sorry. I have to remember that some stranger on a message board might not take my "LOL Come on..." as lightheartedly as I do... All I ask is that if something I post seems mean, antagonizing, offensive, etc. just shoot me a message or something. Report me to the mods if you think I deserve it. I try to mind my Ps and Qs but I'm only human and we all feel strongly about certain subjects. I'd rather avoid these little insulting jabs because I'm not some troll passing through here I've been on this forum a long time and if you count FH before Nov 2007 it's been over a decade. I should have addressed this after the first response instead of biting which is also on me.
Agree on Rose, do think they obvious PED guys should go to the back of the line. Yes they pretty much saved MLB after the disastrous cancelled WS in the 90's, also think they abused the grey area they were given. Further think Don Fehr was an utter moron When I think of MLB, tbh, think of guys like Nolan Ryan, mid 40's and the guy just worked like a horse to keep pitching with no PED's Further think MLB of all sports tends to be the most parochial amongst it's fans, the athletes are held to standards that the NBA would find laughable. As for Pete Rose, I'm torn as well, when I played little league my game was his game, treat a walk like a hit, steal bases, run over ppl always be aggressive..all well and good. Real problem with Rose the way I see it is he has made -0- effort to clean up his act after his suspension/exile, it is not as if he is swinging hammers for Habitat for Humanity or voluntering at homeless shelters, for me that speaks more about the sort of man he is moreso than dropping money on his team via gambling. We all have periods of seeing the world incorrectly and doing things we probably should not have done, Charlie Hustle's problem is..he never stopped doing those things imho.
Here's the thing though how do you know Ryan never took PEDs? Don't you think it's a bit suspicious that a guy in his mid 40s continued to throw like he did when 99% of MLB pitchers lose it and can't pitch like that at that age? See where this leads to a slippery slope? Full disclosure I don't think Ryan ever did PEDs but we don't know what he did or didn't do. That's exactly why HOF voters should either vote everyone who deserves it into the Hall or no one, otherwise it's a complete witch hunt with guys like Piazza or Bagwell or the voters are punishing guys like Bonds or Clemens or McGwire for taking something that wasn't banned at the time so therefore with that logic all the guys who took greenies should be thrown out of the Hall then since those weren't banned at the time but are now. The whole thing is so silly.
The amount of hyperbole surrounding the PED players is utterly insane. When you consider some of the people already in the hall, I don't see how anyone can make an argument to keep arguably the best hitter of all time (Bonds) and one of the greatest pitchers of all time (Clemens) out. Further, if both hitters AND pitchers were juicing, they were both playing against amped up competition - cancels out. It puts the non-juicers in a bind, but who can really tell from that era who was or was not? Then finally consider that MLB, the fans and the media all but encouraged it, and at the very least regularly looked the other way, it is ridiculous. People need to stop pretending the HoF and it's voters are some great arbitrator of fairness and morality. It's a celebration of baseball dominance, not a church.
The argument against it is really easy and simple. Not every player was doing ped's. The idea of any sport is competition on a level playing field. If the fields not level you've destroyed the integrity of the game. Without integrity, the game means nothing. If that's too much for some to comprehend they don't deserve the HOF or even to be allowed to play regardless of how good they are or how bad they. They deserved to be kicked the heck out. It's not that hard....play fairly or don't play. As far as who can tell who was and who wasn't....I'll go with innocent until proven guilty. If they find out after I'd recomend they be in-inducted in to the HOf
Thing is those who didnt do it, made a choice not to, they certainly could have. Im not advocating, but PED's, andro, steroids were all readily available to any player who wanted them. When I worked in minor league baseball from 00 - 03 the players had a mantra "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". Do I agree? Nope, but you cant prove beyond a reasonable doubt who was and who wasnt. So let's just go on accolades. Not on whether you think they did drugs or you think that player was an a-hole.
They were readily available and illegal. Those that chose not to do them, did them because they didn't want to break the law and destroy their integrity. Cudos to them. I try and stay away from the PED and HOF topic. But I am on board with keeping any player that there is actual evidence he took steroids out. This reminds me of when a kid gets caught cheating on a test, BUT EVERYONE WAS DOING IT!!, it doesn't matter, they didn't get caught. Its not about the fact that we dont know who did or who did, we know some that did, and you punish them. You however dont punish players because they MAY HAVE. That is ridiculous.
Pete Rose is an idiot and he got what he deserved. He was a fantastic ballplayer and a HOF worthy player but do you know the only thing posted in EVERY single major league dressing room is? A sign reminding players not to bet on baseball. Its been there since the Black Sox scandal. There is no excuse. Thing is just cause everyone else does it, doesnt make it right. Just cause a significant percentage of players do it, doesnt make it fair. If it were up to me baseball would have had a better drug testing policy then. They didnt. Its the fault of their own union who wasnt looking out for their safety, they were looking to get their players paid as much as possible and collect as much power for the union as possible. I wont support anyone going in to the HOF who was caught.
On a different note, the NL East pitching staffs are going to be sick the next few years.... Nats: Scherzer/Strasburg/Zimmerman/Roark/Foster(when he arrive....provided they dont trade one of the first three Mets: Harvey/Wheeler/DeGrom/Syndergaard (when he arrives...which will be soon) Braves always have a good staff and lead by Teheran that'll continue to be true Good luck hitters
All I need know is some team to overpay for Shields and the Yanks will having kept all their draft picks again.....3 in Top 50...
