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****The Official 2014-15 NBA Thread****

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by schmolioot, Jul 7, 2014.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree with most of this but if we're picking nits then I've seen you argue a ton in favor of Dwyane Wade's 2013-14 contribution despite his having been awful in the Finals. When I say that LeBron was the biggest piece of the puzzle in all four years, I mean he was the best player on the team all four years, and the biggest overall cog in that team's success all four years. LeBron's being bad in the Mavericks Finals does not erase his contribution for the other 95 games that year, just as Dwyane Wade's being awful in the second Spurs Finals does not erase his contributions and efficiency from the other 69 games he played.

    I'll take your word for it on him being the leader only two of the four years but it seemed to me publicly anyway that he was the leader in three of the four years.

    I think some day...probably sooner than later...the fans arguing that his jersey should not go up will realize that doing so belittles the accomplishments that the Miami Heat had over that magical four year stretch. They'll realize that in taking LeBron down (out of anger, mostly) they're actually taking down the 2010-14 Miami Heat. Look at Nabo's argument. He's basically saying what the Heat did under LeBron wasn't special.

    As we go forward, people aren't going to want to see it that way. They're going to want to see what the Heat did during that four year run as being historic, special, magical. Especially if the Heat do not recapture that as you speculate they will. And when they start coming to realize how special that microwave dynasty really was, they'll realize it's unavoidable that they have to celebrate the biggest piece of the puzzle during that microwave dynasty. That's probably when the healing will begin in earnest.
     
  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Even I'm not about to argue for LeBron getting a statue though. Wade of course. LeBron? No. And you're right...with LeBron going back to Cleveland he's pretty much erased Chris Bosh's chances of being sculpted next to LeBron and Wade. So that sucks for him. But he's got a max contract's worth of dollar bills to soak up his tears.
     
  3. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    As for being the best player on the team for all 4 years...that first year....

    I think it goes to Wade for his playoff run and his insane Finals. (since they were so close in the regular season)

    Look at their numbers in the regular season:

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2011

    The Heat actually had the best two players in the NBA that year.
     
  4. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    Through the years, through all the poor luck in the draft (bad spots when we really sucked) to no-impact draft picks with high spots, to the undue way the league seemed to scrutinize the team in trades and FA signings and seemingly delight in quashing big deals, to Brian Grant's knees, to Zo's kidney failure (KIDNEY FAILURE! What in the unholy ****?!) I resigned myself to rooting for a snake-bit franchise.

    Even when we finally won with Wade and Shaq, and Zo finally got his well-deserved ring, after the celebration I kind of felt like we had been forced to make a deal with the Devil to finally win, letting that fat **** Shaq and his special brand of lazy into the house; like inviting a vampire over the threshold. And I thought of what we had to send away for that trophy—Odom, Caron Butler—and then, after 15-67, it just didn't seem like a good bargain. I felt snake-bit again.

    Then, 2009/2010, and the buzz starts; then, out of nowhere, Riley revokes the rule against headbands; then he says, sure, a player could wear #23 if he wanted. And there was no doubt in my mind that we were getting James, and maybe Bosh. And we did. And it took the curse off.

    Even now, with James skipping town and leaving 3-4 more titles on the court at AAA, I don't feel the least bit pessimistic.

    It's like, Riley tried to play by the rules and got slapped down by David Stern time and again, but after that Riley caught on and tore the league's *** open and that guy is still in charge. For all his faults, Riley's got the league's number now and he wants to cash all winning tickets.

    Even through the Marino years, and those really were fun, I've never had that kind of faith in ANY iteration of the Miami Dolphins since Bobby Beathard left or Joe Thomas died, I forget which came last.
     
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  5. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    An argument over something that's unprecedented isn't going to be 'silly.' What LeBron just did has, to my knowledge, NEVER happened before in the NBA. A star just WALKED OUT on an in-its-prime dynasty, one where the other pieces of it wanted to and will stick together. We've never seen something like this. I think when it comes to hanging a guy's jersey in the home arena, loyalty means a ton. There was unfinished business here, and I highly doubt that will be forgotten.

    I also think it's important that LeBron is in all likelihood going to be remembered as a Cavalier. This isn't someone who kept bouncing around like Ray Allen. He'll have played as many as fifteen seasons for Cleveland, where he was born and raised. Retiring his jersey for any other team will just feel strange. Maybe I'm just being old-fashioned here? I miss the days when guys would buckle down and stick to the cause in one city...but what LeBron did can be thought of like this FOR CLEVELAND. I think Miami has strong elements of loyalty (Wade, Haslem), and that's what makes LeBron's jersey hanging a potential issue.
     
  6. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Technically, ~40 miles south in Akron. But your point still stands.
     
  7. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    LOL. I schooled Shane Larkin on twitter, and he thanked me.
     
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  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's fair. They were very close.
     
  9. JShady

    JShady Miami Heat lover

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    Looks like Allen is joining the Cavs, thanks Allen for saving Lebron's legacy.
     
  10. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Not sure anyone can look at what is going and say Lebron isn't very selfish.

    Is he trying to build the Cleveland Heat?
     
  11. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He wants guys that he's comfortable with, who are professionals. Cleveland has almost none of those. Instead of the teaching burden falling solely to LeBron, he can lean on these guys.

    It is funny though how the Heat were so old yet three Heat guys will make up the meat of the bench for Cleveland, particularly if their depth is gutted following a Love trade.
     
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  12. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see how he's selfish for wanting to get as many good players as he can and as many guys he's comfortable playing with as he can. Was it selfish when he brought Big Z to Miami, or really any of the other players he helped recruit? If you want to be mad at some of the players that would leave Miami for Cleveland, I get that (though I'm really not), but I don't see why you'd blame LeBron for trying to win another championship.
     
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  13. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    You're missing the point. Both replies did honestly. Ill expand when I'm off work.
     
  14. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....-are-role-players/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

    Not a great look, but I can't say I'm all that surprised at the maturity of Howard or Harden. While Harden is not necessarily wrong about those two being the cornerstones, that's not really something you want to come out and say. He certainly seems to insinuate that everyone else after those two are interchangeable and replaceable.
     
  15. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Yeah, i saw that. Howard basically said the same thing a few days ago. It is what it is. I like that both Howard and Harden are shouldering the burden. What i don't like is Harden being seen around town and in China with this reality show whore, Tahiri. Man, that is a quick way to ruin yourself. Leave those broads alone, Beard. JR Smith still hasn't recovered from this broad.
     
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  16. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Can't blame him. If he wants the best chance to prolong his already HOF career, he ought to go to Cleveland.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Don't think you ever would have heard those kinds of statements out of the mouths of any of the Big 3 while they were here.

    #thingstoappreciateaboutlebronjames
     
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  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If Miami Heat fans think LeBron James is a really selfish player then it's a testament to the Heat's front office because it means we haven't been exposed to the many, many, many, many ACTUAL selfish players there are out there.
     
  19. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    There is truth to that. But, let's not forget Lebron made Mario Chalmers a national punching bag by yelling at him on national t.v. The Big 3 yell at their role players on national t.v. Yet, i've never seen them yell at each other.
     
  20. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Mario Chalmers yells back though. He gives as good as he takes.
     
  21. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He did, but the one instance where he really crossed the line, he was also seen on TV apologizing. He has always had very good things to say about Mario Chalmers even including him in his SI letter calling him his little brother.
     
  22. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    True. Chalmers knows he's a role player. All role players know they are role players. Twitter is trying to make a big deal out of what Harden and Howard said. Bev, TJones, and Ariza know they are role players. The guys we brought in for the bench certainly know they are role players. I think this offseason, we got rid of the sensitive players we had last year (especially Lin, Garcia,and Asik) and we brought in some tough, gritty players. I think that is why Howard and Harden feel they can say what they feel now without anyone getting offended. If they had called them role players last season, Lin would have been tweeting scriptures and Asik would have faked another injury.
     
  23. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Selfish human being not player. Not actually on the court.
     
  24. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Whether or not Lebron's jersey is eventually retired does not make the argument silly. What eventually happens is rarely relevant to what should happen, which is what the discussion is about.

    As for when Warfield and company left, there was anger it's just that more of it was directed at Robbie than at the players. He wasn't a beloved owner back then. He was largely seen as cheap. The anti-Semitic stereo-type of the cheap Jew was oft repeated. Back then overt racism was more commonplace. It didn't matter that Robbie was actually Arabic (I think), that didn't stop people from spouting that stuff. And players didn't make big money so very few blamed them for taking the bigger paycheck. That vast majority of the people I heard speak of it either specifically said or implied that they would have done the same thing.

    If Wade got the statue and Lebron had his jersey retired that would make some sense. I don't think there's anyway anybody should consider their contributions to the Heat as equal. That still wouldn't be my preference. IMO the jersey retirement should be reserved for longer contributions to the Heat. I feel more comfortable with Hardaway being up there than Lebron. Lebron had more accomplishments, but that's not what it's about to me. Despite having his prime years elsewhere, Hardaway didn't feel like a rental.
     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This was 40 years ago. If you're under 60 I don't trust that you were paying attention enough to actually have a firm grasp of what "most people" or "everyone" thought back then. And if you're over 60 I'm not inclined to trust your memory of the zeitgeist from 40 years ago. Actually under 60 or over 60 doesn't matter. I don't trust it either way.
     
  26. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Seems like LeBatard is working on a Epic expose' of Decision 2.0.

    I think I know most of what he is trying to discover..but it is gonna be fun to see him try to source this one out. My guess is that it takes him about 6 months.
     
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  27. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What's he saying for those of us not listening?
     
  28. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Just alluding to some cryptic innuendo and that he has been trying to contact all of the King's "court".
     
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  29. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Are there going to be any major revelations there? Seems like what's coming from those close to LeBatard suggest this was in the works for quite a while and they were toying with Riley a bit. LeBatard himself has continuously said fans of Miami should be grateful and not mad at LeBron, so anything super negative would seem to be based off of new information.

    I'd love to see him make Rich Paul and some others in LeBron's circle look bad.
     
  30. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was about 7 or 8 years old when I first specifically recall hearing the anti-Semitic comments made by the largely Cuban population that I watched the games with every weekend (either at people's homes or at the games). I also recall how the same remarks and complaints continued to be repeated for the next 10 years or so until about the time I went off to college. But obviously you're free to put more credence in your completely made up theory about events you didn't witness.
     
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  31. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    I like Lebatard's show but his obsession with Lebron is a little uncomfortable and he flat out lies when he says he doesn't have a rooting interest in the Heat. The only thing he talks about on that show all year is Lebron, he's obsessed.
     
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  32. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thee...Ohio State University
    An underlying reason IMO Bron was coming home.

    http://www.movoto.com/blog/opinions/most-state-pride-states-map/

    May sound silly to the outsiders, but this state breeds people who love it. Yes the weather blows, some places are doom n gloom...but it's in our veins.

    One of the reasons people took him leaving SO hard, and why they are so happy to have their king home where he belongs.# weputonforourcity
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm also free to disregard the opinion of a 7 or 8 year old boy trying to tell me the nuances of what an entire NFL team fan base thinks right now about a certain development, and why they think that way.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Barry Jackson says the Heat have interest in Chris Douglas-Roberts of the Charlotte Hornets.

    He shot about 39% from three point land last year.
     
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  35. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    Apparently the data from that is based off of Facebook "likes", very scientific!
     
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  36. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Micky Arison just tweeted "18".

    Anybody use that number? Or is Micky drunk?
     
  37. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Age of the booty he just tapped :shifty:
     
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  38. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    More power to him.
     
  39. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    I was 19. I remember just fine.

    The working-class guys, just like they always tend to do, thought the players were being greedy. The fact that Larry Csonka was busting his *** for $75,000 didn't mean **** to them; back then if you were making $20,000 you were paying the rent, buying food and owned a car. And that was most people.

    The college-educated guys faulted Joe Robbie for being a cheap prick and not having been a better businessman, and paid those guys more to begin with, which would probably have headed off any advances from a POS league that didn't even exist yet. Or at least made an effort to pay them more once the offer became real, which he didn't do.

    The truth, as usual, lay somewhere in-between. Joe Robbie was a wealthy man by average standards, but he was terribly cash-poor by NFL-owner standards. In fact, he could never have afforded the expansion costs if he hadn't had entertainer Danny Thomas as an investor. Not a J-Lo/Fergie investor—Thomas was the money man, and what he didn't put up himself he arranged.

    All of which put Robbie in constant debt, which contributed to his penuriousness. But, unlike Bill Bidwill, Ralph Wilson and Bob Irsay, Robbie wasn't cheap just to be cheap, without regard to the product they put on the field as long as the team made money. Robbie probably spent more of his day talking to debtors than running the team.

    The WFL thing came out of nowhere and it blindsided the organization. Robbie was both reluctant to give up any cash under what he saw as a sort of blackmail, plus he was personally hurt that the trio hadn't come to him before the thing went public.

    I can tell you that, eventually, Robbie was thought of as the villain in this story. Paying a pittance to star players, playing in a 50-year-old (at the time) stadium with 18" metal bench seating, obstructed sightlines, and urine dripping onto fans in their seats in some parts of the bowl (NOT exaggerating) all reflected poorly on him as the head honcho; he was increasingly seen as a bad owner by the majority of fans.

    That's why, when Marino came along, he saw the opportunity and leveraged the team to construct his own stadium for about $95M, all borrowed. By the time Huizenga came along, he was the white knight the team needed to remain in Miami. Note that as soon as the old man died, Tim Robbie was desperate to unload the whole package to Wayne.

    So, yeah; I remember it clearly, despite my advancing years. The initial, knee-jerk reaction was to blame the players, but eventually the bad guy was made out to be Robbie.
     
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  40. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    Maybe it means we signed our 18th player...?
     

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