If you can't trade an asset for equal or better value , and you are not getting anything to help you this year you wait at least until the end of the year imo. A second at this point is almost a third for would have been this draft.
I think you need to wait until after this year to be able to say anything about Chris Clemons and Reshad Jones. Those are developmental players who are going to need time to develop. Patience.
We'll see. But I don't have much hope in either, especially Clemons. There's at least still a small hope of Jones turning into a guy that could make some plays in the secondary. Clemons has hit his ceiling in my opinion.
Where are the steals Miami has had under Ireland? I don't see any , honestly , some picks are ok for their draft spot , but no one can be considered a "steal" imo. If a player is a starter and you want to replace him because he isn't good enough , that somehow elevates your draft acumen? If your team finishes below .500 for years , just because you have drafted "starters" that to me doesn't automatically make them good , as the record bears out. My point is that I have not seen any players add truly significant value to this team in relation to where they were picked. Long has played well , but just my opinion , he hasn't surpassed what realistically should have expected from allocating such a valuable asset for him. Playoff teams get better returns on SOME of their drafted players , which offsets busts or losses , that allows the talent base to be built which translates to more wins and less losses. I think this shows how the lack of this has caught up and took hold of this team , now again , I have said let's see how this year plays out , perhaps some of the draft picks will indeed become significant difference makers , if so Ireland will have been rewarded for being retained. If on the other other hand at the end of the year it is pretty much status quo , for me , that is enough to know I would make the change and allow someone else to make the football decisions that are needed to change the direction we have been on.
I think you need to take a look at this roster in comparison to others and realize that the main difference is that there has not been an adequate QB. Do you realize that this team went 6-3 in its final nine games last year, when Matt Moore's QB rating was 97.8, and the rest of the roster wasn't a whole lot different? Of course the intent here is for Ryan Tannehill is to play just as well as or better than Moore. Now, get Tannehill to play that way, and then get some more development out of Sean Smith, Reshad Jones, Chris Clemons, Koa Misi, Jonathan Martin, John Jerry, Mike Pouncey, Charles Clay, Brian Hartline, Davone Bess, Rishard Matthews, and Javorskie Lane, and then see what you've got.
Big boy debate? How about read through the first 37 pages of the thread. I have a few posts in there stating why I don't think Jeff Ireland has done a good job. And you know what? There were even a lot of good posts in favor of Jeff Ireland. But that post you created that I responded to was just a bunch of speculation that had 0 truth to it. At this point I'm not sure there is anything Jeff Ireland can do that will draw criticism from you. You will take every move he makes and spin it or make something up, which you've gotten real good at in this thread.
I willing to bet a good chunk of change that that 2nd round pick never becomes as good of a player as Vontae Davis. And I see no reason why we couldn't have gotten a 2nd round pick for him in April 2013 if we shopped him around to CB needy teams
If Tannehill turns into a franchise QB, then Ireland sticks around for a long time. Having written that, if the Phins have a really bad season (four or less wins and Ryan struggles badly) then I think Jeff gets fired just to appease the fanbase. If the team is in the 6-7 win range (with Tannehill playing well but lacking weapons), then I think Ireland gets one more year to see if Ryan develops further. I'm very concerned that Jeff has not done enough to help our rookie QB this year. The WR corp looks to be very average at best. We all understood that Wake needed help on the other side, but where is that pass rush help going to come from? We have a paper thin secondary with the trade of Vontae. I am willing to cut Jeff slack for the years that Parcells was in command, but he has called the shots completely for two years now, can we hold him accountable for their performance this season? Ireland looks like a middle-of-the-road GM right now. Why be afraid to replace average, to try and get to good, or even great?
Points taken. I'd add to it: regarding a 1st round center: at least half the NFL has a 1st round interior lineman starting for them, so that doesn't necessarily mean it's a "Parcellian" pick. What separates it from being Parcellian is Pouncey is of the agile, athletic mold that Ireland drafted to fit a zone scheme, which Parcells wouldn't do. regarding "drafting another lineman high": the NFL average draft position for offensive tackles is the 2nd round. That's an NFL thing, not a Parcells thing. Those linemen are now being taken high out of necessity b/c the recent trend is for all the big athletic guys to play DE compared to years past. Plus there are more capable pass rushers in the league with some teams having more than one, not to mention coaches aren't just lining their best pass rusher outside the left tackle anymore, which raises the need for a quality RT even more. What makes the pick of Martin a non-Parcellian pick is the fact he's an athletic zone blocker, not a monstrous mauler. Daniel Thomas would seem like a Parcells pick based on his size & physical nature, but Parcells likely wouldn't have drafted the zone scheme running back to play in his preferred man blocking scheme. Not to mention, Thomas didn't have the experience that Parcells prioritizes considering he only spent 2 years at running back after being a Juco QB. You make a good point about Olivier Vernon, but unfortunately it's hard to find an elite pass rusher in the 3rd round, but at the same time we couldn't just turn our nose up at the position and ignore it entirely considering Misi was moving to SLB and Taylor retired. At the very least we badly needed depth at the position and couldn't afford to be picky considering the situation, so it's hard to argue the pick IMO. If Vernon turns out to be a bust that's another story. I won't blame Ireland for Vernon busting if the rest of the draft pans out nicely; however if the rest is subpar he'll have some serious answering to do and be on the hot seat at the very least. Lamar Miller, I'll give you that one. We can't say for sure that Parcells wouldn't have taken him, although it's debatable whether he would've traded up to do so. Egnew veers far from the Parcellian blueprint, as does Kaddu considering he needs a lot of polishing. Taking the chance on Kaddu could very well bite him in the butt, but only time will tell. Tannehill also veers significantly from the Parcells blueprint for drafting QBs. If you didn't read it in one of my previous posts, the other draft aspect to consider is how we're now drafting BPA rather than using what seemed to be a preset draft philosophy regarding what positions would be taken as well as doubling up on some of them, and IMHO that approach cost us some of the talent you're understandably upset we passed over, especially considering we doubled up at a specific position 7 times when Parcells was here (WR, DE, G, CB, LB, OLB, RB) compared to just 1 time with Ireland (which was more coincidental than pre-planned). * 53% of our past 2 drafts were spent on offensive skill players (QB, WR, TE, RB). That's what you want, right? An emphasis on skill players? * Compare that to 27% when Parcells was here (which includes Parcells' failed picks of White & Nalbone). Parcells was afraid to use a high pick on a low risk QB like Matt Ryan, but Ireland had no such problem despite Tanny appearing pre-draft to have a lower floor than Ryan.
I did not realize Miami won 6 out of the last 9 games last year. That is comforting , per chance do you know if Miami beat any teams with winning records in that stretch run? How many playoff teams did Miami beat in that hot streak to end the year? Do other teams expect to also get improved production from similar players as you have mentioned?
Good questions. If we can find out the answers, I think we'll have a better idea of what to expect in this team's future.
This thread is like every Jeff Ireland thread from the past year plus. But then again, so is every other Ireland thread.
LMAO. Good point. The answer is zero. It was Buffalo X2, NYJ, Oakland, Washington, K.C. The three losses were at NE (by 3) at Dallas (by 1) and Philly. Of the 10 losses for the season 5 of them (Cle, NYG, Dallas, Den, NE) were games where we had a 4th qtr lead. The team played conservative whenever they got a lead and it bit them in the *** several times. Is that Ireland's fault also? And since we're using B.S. arguements, how many playoff teams did New England beat all of last season? One. If you dont like Ireland thats fine. But the reasons I see being given are somewhere between biased and ignorant. At least know what the GM's responsibilities are before opining on how good of a job he's doing.
No one would've given us more than a 4th or 5th for Vontae a year before he's a FA. Regardless of what this 2nd round pick turns into or how good Vontae's play was when he was having a good game, he wasn't doing what his coaches & boss were asking of him, and that's what matters most. For $10 million dollars there's no excuse for that kind of stuff, nor for being inconsistent, untrustworthy, and not performing to the level expected of him. Not to mention, the addition of Richard Marshall should've served as a wake up call that someone's job might be in jeopardy if they didn't step up, but that didn't stop Vontae from showing up out of shape. Then he was demoted in preseason and had a costly PI call and personal foul in back to back games prior to and during Ireland's call from Indy about the trade.
I didnt like trading Vontae, the timing especially. But it doesn't take a genius to see why it was done. With Marshall coming in we were only going to re-sign Sean or Vontae, not both. sean came in looking like a stud, Vontae was up to his same ole antics. The Colts came calling and made a good offer, Ireland took it. Two years of Vontae or a 2nd and 6th round pick? Interesting debate, but a decent trade for both teams IMO.
that's a load of garbage, especially considering my argument has NEVER consisted of defending Ireland as being some proven, great GM. My entire argument for Ireland is that I simply don't believe he deserves to be fired at the moment, nor deserves the harsh & unjust criticism being thrown at him, just as 3 current NFL coaches (Jeff Fischer, Leslie Frazier, and Jason Garrett) feel the same way about. You gonna say 3 NFL coaches are doing nothing but "speculating" as well? I'll judge Ireland for EXACTLY what any of us know he's fully accountable for--- 2011 & 2012. Only the Dolphins know who did what from '08-'10, and obviously Ross feels differently than you regarding Ireland's responsibility in it all and who was actually to blame. Nothing I've said is contrived NOR is biasedly opinionated. I have an entire page of facts about Ireland and Parcells that I base everything off of. Yes, some of my argument is speculation (more like deduction than speculation), but get off your high horse and stop pretending that I'm the only one speculating on certain issues b/c that's ALL that you and the outspoken Ireland haters are using to support your arguments. At least my deduction is based on specific facts that can lead to logical conclusions, and there's a big difference between objective, logical deduction based on facts than subjective speculation used to fit your biased belief. Like I said, why don't you act like a big boy and be specific about what you deem as "speculation" on my part rather than weakly using it as a blanket statement.
LOL the guy that tells me that I have a lot "to learn" calls Vontae Davis a "overrated pos"? You can't make this stuff up.
Well, to be fair, Vontae kind of is overrated in the regard that many posters still view him as a 1st rounder despite being in his 4th year and yet to live up to his lofty 1st round expectations. How many Pro Bowls has he made? Since 2009 there's been 4 defensive backs to make the Pro Bowl who were drafted later than Vontae. Just saying, if you're still holding onto his 1st round draft status then you're currently overrating him, especially when our very own late 2nd round corner is now outplaying him.
I've read my last two posts to you, and I'm certain they were in English. That's why i don't understand why for the second time, you've refused to answer it.
How about the whole top post! I was a "big boy" in my original reply. That whole post is complete speculation. I even pointed out the most ridiculous part of the post. But I will again: This is completely ridiculous and purely fabricated. Ireland's preferred WCO scheme? It's just not true. Never has been.
You'd have a harder time proving that's not what he prefers considering it's the same scheme his desired QB [dating back to December] thrives in, the same scheme that his hired Offensive Coordinator runs, the same scheme that he's been drafting athletic zone blocking linemen for the past 2 years, and the same scheme that fits the 2 tight ends he's drafted the past 2 years. Do we run a WCO right now with Ireland in charge? YES or NO? Please answer the question b/c that's the only answer you need. But for some crazy reason you think we're running an offensive scheme that our GM in charge of football doesn't prefer to run or draft for? And I'm the one "speculating"? Yeah, ok. PS: you have no leg to stand on when saying it "never has been his preferred scheme" b/c he's previously never been in charge of a team to be able to have such say so. Talk about speculation. Henning was Parcells' hiring, not Ireland's..... but when Parcells stepped down Ireland didn't hesitate to politely force Henning into retirement.
I'll give you Pouncey isn't the typical guard Parcells prefers. Still doesn't change the fact that drafting a Center the highest one has been taken since 1993 when you have nobody worth blocking for is the same exact philosophy Parcells used in 2008 with Jake Long. A philosophy of building up the lines before anything else. That NFL average draft position sounds like more made up stuff to me, but then again I might not fully understand what you're getting at with that comment. Link it. I made a post a while back regarding draft position of OL on Superbowl teams. That research holds much more water with me than average draft position of the NFL. Not surprisingly, those elite teams were finding starting lineman later in the draft. In fact, If I recall correctly, there were as many, or close to as many, undrafted guys starting on their lines than high draft picks. And Jonathan Martin might be athletic, but that doesn't make him any better at dealing with elite pass rushers, particularly speed rushers. In fact, pass protection is his weakness when compared to his run blocking. I'll give you that he fits the running scheme better. However don't sit and act like it's what Ireland wanted. Ireland wanted Mike McCoy. Mike McCoy uses mostly man blocking schemes in the run game. Mike McCoy, a protege of John Fox and Dan Henning, and their power run game. Kaddu is a throwaway pick. Most GM's, Parcells included draft developmental players in the last couple rounds. Egnew does not really veer from Parcells blueprint either. Parcells drafted Jason Witten in the 3rd round in Dallas. Like Egnew, Witten was a tall, athletic pass catcher with struggles in blocking. I won't disagree about Tannehill, or that Parcells drafted more for need than BPA.
None of the teams we beat had winning records. I would also venture a guess that every team in the league has a group of guys they are hoping takes the next step.
Right, but we didn't have a winning record either, and they didn't beat us. On the one hand, people say we suck, and on the other hand, they act like we should beat teams that don't have winning records, as if that's what's expected. Which one is it?
I don't dislike Ireland , I just don't believe he has been a successful General Manger . I want the GM to not head ongoing losing seasons and to manage a draft better and acquire talent that results in playoff wins. I am aware of a GM's responsibility , by the way how did Ireland acquire the extra first round pick for 2013? NE only beat one playoff team all last year?
"Suck" is a subjective word. I have a tendency to call any team that fails to finish .500 a sucky team. Though in reality, most of them are really just mediocre. That's what we are, and what we've been for ages. Mediocre.
Well every mediocre team is a franchise QB away from Super Bowl contention. Welcome to the 2013 Miami Dolphins.
I knew that of course as every poster on here should. Still awaiting the GM poster to answer a couple of questions regarding his statements , maybe he can blame Bill Parcells for the incorrect statements
Sigh. Yes, we run a WCO syle now with Philbin. Happy? Believe that Philbin, Sherman and Co. were Ireland's decisions and preferences all you want. I don't at all. Before another argument or debate ensues, I'll just save the time. Let's agree to disagree. Philbin and Co. was a Ross Decision as far as I'm concerned.
I agree, it does get annoying seeing us draft 1st round linemen twice in 4 years, but in hindsight, who did we really miss out on? The top QB's were drafted; Mark Ingram wasn't worthy of the pick. Personally, I can't get mad at taking the twin of one of the league's best Centers considering our 2010 Oline heading into 2011 was the worst in the NFL, especially our interior. IMO it wasn't something we could ignore b/c in 2010 we couldn't run on 1st down to keep us out of 2nd & 3rd and long, and I couldn't imagine how bad our Oline would've looked last year w/o Pouncey considering it allowed a league leading 52 sacks with him (to go with 82 pressures). I can't really link it. I added it all up myself a few weeks ago. I looked at every team's starting tackle's draft position and averaged it out as well as assessed the median. If a team used a high draft pick in 2011 or 2012 to replace the lineman they have, then I used that draft position instead. I'll just copy and paste the results: 20 teams have 1st or 2nd rounders at RT (this includes guys from the past 2 drafts who were drafted to become the future RT). That number jumps to 27 at LT. * RT breakdown: 11 1st rounders. 9 2nd rounders. (only 4 were 5th round & later) * LT breakdown: 20 1st rounders. 7 2nd rounders ** The average draft position for all 2011 starting RT & LT is round 2.3 (2.0 for LT, 2.7 for RT) (if a team used a 2011 or 2012 1st or 2nd round pick on a tackle, I used that draft position instead) To go a step further, if you look at each team's highest drafted starting interior lineman, that average draft position is round 2.0 * 14 1st rounders. 11 2nd rounders. There are a lot of teams that used as much or more firepower on Oline as we have unfortunately. Offhand I know NE has used the same, and Balt, San Fran, Pitt, and Detroit have used more. Regarding McCoy. I don't think anyone of us can say what would or wouldn't have happened with that considering we were looking at him as a head coach rather than an OC. Considering Ireland has had a crush on Tannehill since December as well as the fact that we're running a WCO and have drafted guys who fit it the past 2 year, I'd have to lean toward Ireland wanting more of a spread offense with a zone blocking scheme. Don't forget, he hired Daboll who introduced some of those concepts last year. I'll give you that Perhaps Parcells might've been interested in Egnew, but I don't think he would've pulled the trigger on him in time considering he liked Jimmy Graham a bunch but wouldn't take him before round 4 despite being told while he was taking a whizz during the Senior Bowl that he should take him in round 2. lol. Personally, I just think too much has changed to past 2 years to really know what the heck I think about it all w/o seeing the season play out first.
So now that Ireland is fully in charge, all the good moves are Ross's decision, but when Parcells was in charge all the bad moves were Ireland's? Sorry, but you can't bounce from side to side based on how it suits your argument. Pick one and stick to it. If you thought Ireland was to blame for our past, you have no right to switch it up now that he's in charge. You try to make it seem like Ross, a non football guy, had to twist Ireland's arm kicking and screaming to go to a WCO, when in fact it was Ireland who had been "enamored with Tannehill", a WCO QB, since last August, long before Philbin entered the picture. Ireland has also used the past 2 drafts and free agencies to build up a spread style, zone blocking offense, part of which was before Philbin arrived. He also hired Daboll [prior to Philbin's arrival], and Daboll began easing the offense into that transition. So don't tell me a GM with his reputation on the line now that he's finally in full control is running an offensive scheme that he didn't want. That's utterly ridiculous.
Since when are athletic OL exclusive to a WCO? Since when are pass catching TE's exclusive to a WCO? Since when do GM's choose offensive coordinators instead of the head coach? Fact of the matter is, it was reported he wanted Mike McCoy, and Mike McCoy runs Dan Henning/John Fox's offense, not a WCO.
Take a look in the mirror because that's exactly what you're doing. You have no problems shoving things down our throat that was reported by the media when it supports Ireland, but when someone else does the same that doesn't support Ireland...
IMHO and completely not trying be a Homer, last year we were a playoff caliber team that played at a mediocre level, b/c when we kicked it into gear we were beating the snot out of bad teams and beating good teams through 50+ minutes of play. IMO that's the sign of a good team that's poorly coached and not properly motivated (either via coaches, a lack of outspoken team leadership, or initially knowing we had a lame duck coach). Hopefully Philbin and Co can help change that. If Tannehill were in his QB prime right now, I'd say we're a definitely playoff caliber team with sleeper potential. Personally, I just think we looked worse than we really are b/c we've had crappy QB play, terrible coaching, and not good enough team leadership.
You either believe this team is on an upward trajectory and set up to make good on its personnel selections over the past few years, or you don't. I don't think you're going to "socratic method" anyone into believing what you do. There isn't a "truth" you're going to illuminate by asking enough questions. In the end it'll still be opinion, yours and everyone else's.
We don't even know yet if Philbin and Co. was a good decision. Who deemed that a good decision already? Definitely wasn't me. If Philbin is a complete failure, you can bet your *** I'm blaming it on Ross, not Ireland. And I'm on record as saying that Tannehill was my favorite Ireland decision to date. Bottom Line: Contrary to popular belief, I don't have any irrational hate towards Ireland. I'm not the knee jerk reaction type. There are posts in this thread where I lay out why he fell out of favor in my book. But I'll also tell you the moves he made that I agree with. Tannehill being the biggest. And...I had many more problems with Parcells, Sparano, Henning, Pasqualoni, than I've had with Ireland. But, unlike Ireland, those guys were held accountable for their failures and fired or forced to retire(except Parcells, who ran like a little *****.). There's no bias on my end.
I haven't bounced from side to side on anything. I've taken the same consistent approach. I liked our 2009 draft outside of Parcells' Pat White & Nalbone picks but I'm not crediting Ireland for it just to do so. Our 2010 draft is probably above average compared to the rest of the league but I'm not laying that on Ireland either. Parcells was in charge the first 3 years so I give all the blame and credit to him. Ireland obviously contributed to the blame and credit, but considering the schemes we ran were based on coaches picked by Parcells and schemes that we're no longer running, I can't say for any accuracy what decisions Ireland would or wouldn't have made if it were done his way from day one, nor can I assume that drafting players for Henning's offense wasn't a hinderance for him. Therefore, the only stuff I know falls fully on Ireland's shoulders is 2011 & 2012, and considering what we're seeing now [schemes, coaching, draft style, players being brought in] looks completely different than from '08-'10, I really don't care what Parcells & Ireland did then b/c it's become a moot point. All that matters is what the team does from here on out now that all this change is taking place. As such, Ireland deserves full credit or full blame from 2011 out, and if he deserves blame, I'll certainly give it to him.
So...unless a 1st rounder makes the Pro Bowl, he is a bust, worthless to the team's current or future success, and must be traded away post haste? Sean Smith never outplayed Davis during their 3 seasons starting together. The 2012 season hasn't been played yet. We shall see which one has the better season.
I liked this years draft , and I hope they do develop substantially this season. I have not liked previous drafts and they , imo have not developed in that manner. When a poster continually defends Ireland and criticizes those who pose legitimate questions while stating non factual declarations , how is that supposed to be received?
