Just reading this, it would seem no matter which one actually pulled the trigger, our team would be basically the same today:
I guess it depends on how big the choices/decisions involved were. And these are separate from Parcells hiring Sparano & Henning when, IIRC, Ireland liked a different HC, and Henning seeming nothing like Ireland's preferred choice of offensive scheme (see the transition to a zone-blocking, spread style offense the season after Parcells stepped down). IMO our path didn't veer toward mediocrity during those few occasions where Parcells used his final say card on Ireland; it initially veered when he hired Sparano & Henning. Anything after that was salt on the wound. Plus, for Parcells to overrule Ireland, I'm guessing it had to be pretty big. IDK, I think the team could look a lot different if: the offensive personnel [and draft picks] didn't revolve around Henning & Sparano; we didn't waste the White or Nalbone picks; didn't waste FA money on injury prone, prototypical Parcells linemen (Smiley & Grove); went BPA rather than doubling up on positions 7 times in Parcellian fashion; and didn't have a terrible '08 Parcellian draft outside of Long & Langford (with all the expectations on Parcells after just becoming the $12.0M czar of Miami, there's no way I see that draft as being anything but Parcells's).
Sure the team would have been different if they were procuring players for another system than the ones Sparano and his staff employed. That's not the question. Basically what that quote says is Bill and Jeff were in agreement on all personnel moves except for one or two. So now there is something else to speculate on. Where they two big moves, like 1st or 2nd round draft picks, or marquee UFA signings, or was it two smaller moves such as a late round draft pick or a 2nd tier UFA signing? Looking at the awful mess of UFAs that Jeff landed us this season, all on his own, then trading off our best pure man cover corner, thus weakening the secondary right before the season, I do not see a whole heck of a lot to be excited about, as it pertains to his handling of personnel. YMMV.
Ireland's preferred west coast offense? lol where are you getting this from? from what we heard Ireland didn't PREFER Philbin and his WCO after Sparano was fired, he preferred Mike McCoy. I personally believe, like many others, that Parcells and Ireland share the same philosophies when scouting and evaluating players. why do I believe that? because it's the most logical explanation as to why Parcells chose this man to come to Miami with him and help him run the team. and I also believe Parcells let Ireland run the 09 draft, because it would make complete sense for Bill to let Ireland operate at least one draft to get his feet wet and prepare himself for the very near future where Parcells eventually retires and leaves his right hand man in complete control of football operations.
Sorry, but I suspect Section is right yet again here. It seems we're now just making things up to defend Ireland. Ireland's preffered WCO scheme?! Really? Your whole post was just crazy speculation to make Parcells a scapegoat and Ireland a folk hero.
Exactly. So much speculation and wrong info in that post it's hilarious. My particular favorite was the part about Kevin Burnett not being a prototypical Parcells LB, yet it was Parcells that drafted him in the 2nd round in 2005. But the whole preferring the WCO when it was widely reported Ireland wanted Mike McCoy is a close second. The part about Ricky, Ronnie, Lex, and Parmele all being prototypical Parcells backs, yet Daniel Thomas is not was also pretty funny.
What's pretty funny is that anybody here professes to know any of what this thread has devolved into.
This is a good point. We don't know which one or two times they disagreed, and how consequential the move was. I think a lot of people will naturally hope it was the Matt Ryan thing but I'm telling you, Ireland has given every indication that he was even more on board with Jake over Matt than Parcells. It was Parcells (after he left) who made waves with his public admission that "maybe we made a mistake" or something along those lines, taking Jake over Matt. The next day Jeff Ireland reacted to the news by coming right out from his cave to the press and saying taking Jake Lobg was not in any way a mistake, he's been to the pro bowl every year he's been in the league, and never in his life will he have any regrets about taking Jake Long. After that, Parcells had to release a "clarification" on what he said about Jake and Matt, in which he said they have no regrets. It was essentially a total back track of what he had previously said and I have zero doubt that somewhere in between the original statement and the retraction, there was a phone call from Ireland to Parcells. The part I think people are missing when they try and figure out how the two BEHAVED while working together (i.e. Parcells overruling Ireland the one or two times they disagreed) is the fact that the relationship was legally structured to give Ireland final authority on the roster.whatever authority Ireland ceded in those one or two instances, he did so at his own discretion on the basis of "I don't want to get fired". But is Parcells firing his hand picked protege that he's worked with for many years, because he tried to do the job he was hired to do with the authority he was legally given, really a credible threat? Wouldn't that heavily damage Parcells' precious reputation? Say Ireland decided to grow a back bone those one or two times they disagreed, and said well I know what you want Bill, but read the contracts, I have final authority on personnel and if you're going to fire me then fire me. What happens? I'll tell you what happens, Ireland gets fired or the move gets made, one or the other, because Parcells did not have the legal authority to stop Jeff from making that move.
It was also right around that time that he said he was disappointed with Chad Henne's development. The reality in this league is that when a new regime is hired to run a team that doesn't have a franchise quarterback, it has to hitch its wagon to a quarterback it acquires. For the Parcells regime that was Chad Henne, and that failed. I'm not surprised Parcells said the miss on Matt Ryan was a mistake, right around the time that it sounded like he was realizing Chad Henne wasn't going to be the answer. IMO the regime got grandiose and thought it could pull off the improbable by drafting a franchise QB later than the 1st round, and that was a massive backfire. If that was Parcells's call and not Ireland's, then IMO Ireland deserves the chance to build this team with his own quarterback. It could very well be the case that Ryan Tannehill in his second year becomes a franchise QB right at the same time that key players Ireland has built this team with are rounding into becoming very good in their own right. Sean Smith, Koa Misi, Mike Pouncey, Jonathan Martin, Charles Clay, John Jerry, Reshad Jones, Chris Clemons, Brian Hartline, Rishard Matthews. These are all possibilities. This team could very well go from being well under .500 this year to well over .500 next year. How would Jeff Ireland look at that point? The table is set for it. Now, is anybody here patient enough to wait for it?
This is right. My process went from "benefit of doubt" to "let's see" to recognizing a pattern of incompetence. The Vontae trade was the cherry on top for me,and made me understand that Ireland is just clueless. The Marshall trade and then standing pat with the WR corp. was the spoon to eat this ****ty sundae.
Perhaps the time table isn't shared but for me , Ireland is having his chance. After this year , he should be graded and evaluated to see if he continues as GM imo. Perhaps a lot of the ifs and maybes pertaining to players developing AND producing are answered positively by the end of this season , if that is the case then he likely will be retained to continue his vision. On the other hand , if this season has once again more question marks than answers , no real playmakers outside of the few we have , no true and tangible development from the players ( and others ) you mentioned then , at least for me , we have shown more than enough patience. Marshall and Vonte were traded for futures , no realistic options were acquired to offset their departure , imo , so if after this season if the hand picked players Ireland has declared as the answers aren't , then why continue to let him make those decisions? We have been patient , and while concern is being expressed , most are on board for allowing this season to play out before making the call on his future. It won't be all about wins and losses but non productive players , tend to make your losses more than your wins .
I am tired of the misinformation in this thread and these forums in regards to Ireland and Parcells. - Parcells admits the White pick was his mistake. We can dissect and pick apart that statement all day and in the process we'll miss the point. Parcells admitted it. End of story on that. - Parcells either directly called some shots/full drafts and/or he also had Ireland follow his blueprints on building a team by finding players with certain traits, skills, talent, etc. I have yet to see anyone refute this last part. - There is article after article pointing out that Ireland didn't have the full power that was in his contract. What's he gonna do.....sue Parcells? - Ireland has had plenty of moves last year and this to be able to question his abilities without having to spin the past.
Remember when the Vontae trade made sense because he was acquiring "ammunition" to trade for a WR and anyone that questioned it or disliked it was considered a knee jerk reacting imbecile? I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Vontae trade, or better yet, the timing of the Vontae trade. The standing pat on the WR position, the Vontae trade, and the stockpiling of picks scares me into thinking Ireland's leash is longer than me or you suspect. He may survive the upcoming 4-12 season. Ross may have bought the bridge Ireland was selling
Because there is more going on with a team than personnel selection. There are the relationships among the owner, GM, and head coach, for example. Right now we have a GM and new head coach who are working very well in tandem to construct this team. There is no discernible conflict there from my view. That's very important for a team that's rebuilding and trying to develop a franchise QB, as well as the pieces around him. If Ryan Tannehill is as successful this year as the decision to start him as a rookie projects him to be, that will singlehandedly change this team's future trajectory dramatically, and at that point I don't think you'll want to tinker with the relationship between the GM and the head coach and potentially introduce conflict into a relationship in which cooperation is paramount for a rebuilding team. When you have a franchise QB, you probably ought not fool with a whole lot. Let Joe Philbin and Jeff Ireland continue to put their heads together to build this team. Don't finally get a franchise QB and then let a potentially conflictual relationship between the head coach and GM ruin it. I personally wouldn't want to take that chance myself. Of course the counter-argument is that once you have a franchise QB, you need a good GM to do the personnel selection to put adequate pieces around him. But I don't think Jeff Ireland's track record of personnel selection is so bad that you would want to risk what I've stated above on the basis of it.
Why would this change if another GM was brought in? I'm assuming the new GM wouldn't rid the team of the team's good players. I just don't see how finishing this year 3-13 and firing Ireland could have a negative effect on 2013. What I will be patient with is the inevitable crowd noise that will be calling for Philbin to be fired after a 3-13 finish. THAT(firing of Philbin), could, and probably would have a negative effect on 2013.
If you notice what I actually said in my below quote. Philbin and McCoy weren't even in the picture when the offense began transitioning into something more modern in 2011 with Daboll, and this transition began happening during the 2011 offseason with the trade for Bush and the drafting of a zone blocking center, a one cut and go zone running back (Thomas), and a spread style H-back (Clay). Then Daboll eased zone blocking principles into the offense as the season progresses, as well as utilized more spread schemes. That's where it started, and his 2nd draft puts the exclamation point on it even further with another zone blocking lineman (Martin), another spread style TE (Egnew), and a WCO QB who Ireland was enamored with long before McCoy & Philbin entered the picture. Plus, McCoy was a head coach candidate, NOT an offensive coordinator candidate, so your argument about Ireland supposedly preferring McCoy holds no water. Mike Sherman is our OC, and there's no saying he or another WCO/spread style OC wouldn't have been if McCoy were hired, especially considering Ireland's choice in QB. Myself and others have disproven that, and there are 2 years worth of drafts and FA signings to back it up. It's purely speculation that the 2 would have to share the same philosophies. Like Joe Rose said, Parcells set the blueprint and Ireland followed it. There's nothing wrong with that logic. It would make sense to me for Parells to do something like that, but it didn't stop Parcells from stepping in and drafting Pat White & John Nalbone. I wouldn't mind crediting Ireland with the '09 draft b/c that was a solid draft outside of those 2 failed Parcells picks. However, there's no way that '08 was anything other than Parcells' considering he had just been anointed Miami's new $12 million czar and fully had his reputation on the line with that draft. Plus if you look at the 20 or so 2008 Free Agents he stamped his name on, only 1 is still on the team.
another clue that people hating on ireland are confused or uneducated on the process........... your solely blaming him for the vontae trade ? you have a lot to learn. First of all Vontae was an over-rated POS that was immature and had his mind in other places all the time. This has been obvious for a while now. If he had done his job he'd still be here. Second of all, the new coaching staff had issues with him just like the last did. So, to single out the one guy who probably wanted to keep him, but actually got value for him is comical. they are just looking to pin blame on anything............logic aside. And when that 2nd round pick becomes our new #1 WR or pass rusher......
That overrated POS had 9 INTs in the past 3 years. Like triple what anyone else on the team had in that same timespan. That overrated POS arguably outplayed the guy who we're now solely relying just about every Sunday. That overrated POS had 2 years left on his rookie contract. It was silly to trade him 2 weeks before the season starts, especially if you're not going to turn that pick into something. You probably could've waited until the season was over after we got another year of production out of him, another year of evaluation, and flipped him on draft day or prior for a 2nd round pick. As has been argued ad naseum by many of the ones defending Ireland's drafts: Finding a player in the 2nd round that will equal or better Vontae Davis's production and abilities is very very very very slim. And you can bet your bottom dollar that CB will be on the list of draft needs come April because of this
One team is pretty sure they have their franchise QB and felt it was a smart , prudent move to spend a future possible asset for a very young 3 year vet , who has elite physical ability , but has yet to show he has matured enough and who has 2 years left on a very affordable contract in order to continue to build their team. Different views , we'll see.
The legal structuring meant nothing. Stop contradicting yourself; first you admit it had to be worded a specific way to allow Miami & Parcells to steal Ireland from Dallas, and now you're flopping to the other direction. Your eloquence doesn't change what it was---- a loophole for Miami to get Ireland as well an opportunity for Ireland to be mentored into an NFL GM role, which would NOT have happened here if he ACTUALLY demanded full control and final say over Parcells from the get-go. It doesn't take a genius to understand this mutually beneficial situation/arrangement, but you try to make it seem like a career set back for Ireland to come to Miami in a mentoring role under Parcells where he would be given an actual GM role with full control when Parcells stepped down. Oh yeah, that's so terrible of an arrangement for him, let me tell you. What was he thinking to go from VP of Pro & College Scouting to protege of the legend Bill Parcells where he'd be a GM within 4 years. Career suicide!! Not to mention you simply persist to ignore fact after fact about how things were. Instead you intentionally try to twist it into Ireland being some type of coward for not holding Miami to his "worded contract" b/c he's being strong armed by the big bad Parcells. He knew the wording was just that--- wording, and the rest of the NFL knew it, too, but that obviously doesn't fit in with your agenda against Ireland. The 2nd half of the bold statement is nothing but biased conjecture to again fit your agenda. Real convenient of you to say he conceded b/c he "didn't want to get fired". This just keeps getting better. So now you're mentioning how Parcells wouldn't want to damage his precious reputation (understandably so) but you contradict yourself by saying you believe Parcells [who's essentially a control freak] would actually hire a VP of Pro & College Scouting and voluntarily give this newbie complete control and final say over his own self? How exactly would that be in his reputation's best interest? Please, get this straight: Parcells hired Ireland, not the other way around. Parcells was given full control the second he was hired. EVERYONE in the football world understood this, but people here are so quick to develop amnesia. It was Parcells who hired the initial coaching staff (which was 75%+ of the problem). It was Parcells who set the player/draft prototype that Ireland & Brian Gaine had to follow. It was Henning's crappy offensive scheme who Ireland & Gaine had to fit players to. It was Parcells who drafted Pat White when there were some impact players on the board. The last 4 above combined are why we had 3 straight losing seasons. Plus it was a group decision (Henning, Sparano, Ireland, Gaine) that Henne was the guy for Henning's offense based on Parcells' recommendation.
Cameron Wake Davone Bess Brian Hartline Charles Clay Nolan Carroll Reggie Bush (in terms of the contract he was given) Kendall Langford Chris Clemons Reshad Jones Austin Spitler Javorskie Lane On the other hand, you have: Vontae Davis Pat White Phillip Merling Chad Henne Shawn Murphy Patrick Turner Clyde Gates AJ Edds I suspect that track record isn't substantially different from the average GM in the league, or even from the better GMs in the league. Certainly not bad enough to tinker with the fundamental structure of the team in the midst of a developing franchise QB and a rebuilding effort around him, IMO.
"I still am waiting for some examples of where his draft choices have substantially exceeded their slot ..." Maybe Kendall Langford who was not deemed good enough to keep but we used a high draft pick to replace? I don't see one player that answers my question to be honest.
Ah well, I think you'd have to do some research on how well draft picks perform in the NFL to feel better about the situation. The truth of the matter is that even first round picks are a coin flip in terms of ever becoming starters in the league.
What did they get to improve the team this season for not waiting ? Now maybe Vonte needed a trade , maybe this organization can't develop players that are in need of a certain style of coaching or management , but we gave up a year for a future , like a second in a current draft is valued at a one in next years draft. Not exactly a dynamite return.
Sort of like the 2 players I mentioned then? or they don't count? There are others of course .... just those teams were mentioned in regards to Ireland's draft acumen.
That's not what I asked. I asked a very specific question, how long should a team wait for a player to become elite?
There are GMs for every team who bust on some players, and get steals with others. I'm not sure why your criterion for success is picking a player who does substantially better than his draft position. How could you then call any pick in the top 10 overall a success? Is Jake Long not a success for the Dolphins because he's done as well as a #1 overall pick would be expected to? Really if even first-round picks are a coin flip in terms of ever becoming starters, I think you have to redefine your criterion for draft success. If a guy becomes a starter in any round, you've done well.
I was originally OK with that trade because it seemed obvious that pick was going to be moved for someone like Mike Wallace. So much for that. Now that we can pretty much be sure that 2nd round pick will go to waste, most likely on a guard, not much reason to be excited about the trade anymore.
I would say you if you actually believe Ireland is going to find a stud WR or pass rusher with a 2nd round pick. Funny stuff, but we both know a ****ty guard is what is really going to happen with that pick. Now rookie, do yourself a favor and refrain from calling one of the most knowledgeable posters on the site clueless. It won't end well for you.
Seriously, are we really getting excited over ****ty players like Spitler and Carroll? Backup caliber players like Jones, Clemons, and Hartline? That's what separates the good ones from Ireland. They get guys who make game changing plays. We get solid special teamers and solid backups. Whoop-de-doo.
How about actually disputing what I said with a sound argument rather than typing up some opinionated mumbo jumbo......... and exactly what part of what I typed seems like it's making Ireland out to be a folk here? Seriously, are you not able to have a big boy debate?
The poster asked for examples of draft picks who exceeded their slots, and Shou answered it. If you have a problem with the original posted question, that's too bad. Rather than running your yap and twisting what others are saying in order to talk down to them and fit your agenda, how about for once actually doing some breaking down of your own. Since Ireland has stated he's only run 2 drafts on his own, how about you break down Ireland's past 2 drafts...... but oh yeah, it's kinda hard to accurately do so b/c it typically takes a couple years for players to develop but Ireland's drafts have only seen the field for one year. However, it is quite easy to break down the difference in draft styles between Ireland '11-'12 and Parcells '08-'10, so why don't you start with that.
The inconsistent, immature corner wasn't getting with the program, and after 3 years he still hadn't earned the trust of his coaches & GM. As such, they had no faith in believing he'd be a part of the future (IE: wouldn't be re-signing him), therefore he represented more value in trade for a 2nd & 6th rounder who would be on the team for longer than just 2 seasons, which is all we would've gotten out of Vontae. Sorry, but there's absolutely no way in cold heck that having Vontae for only the next 2 years has more value than a 2nd rounder.
We're not getting excited. We're acknowledging them as successes, since the vast majority of guys picked that late aren't on teams this long after they were picked.
Well actually he didn't answer it since half of the players he named weren't even draft picks. As for the differences there aren't many. As reports say, Ireland was in agreement with Parcells on all but a few decisions so differentiating between '08-'10 and '11-'12 doesn't make much sense to begin with. Ireland, just like Parcells drafted an offensive linemen in the first round. A center at that. Highest a Center was drafted since 1993. He drafted Daniel Thomas. A type of back Parcells likes. Big and slow. Drafted yet another linemen high in the draft in Jonathan Martin. Would of been nice if he would of drafted a prototypical Parcells pass rusher. Instead we got Vernon who can't rush the passer for ****. Ryan Tannehill is the only big difference I see. Lamar Miller perhaps, but Parcells has drafted speedy, shifty backs in the past. Julius Jones immediately comes to mind in Dallas.
That doesn't make them a success. It means Jeff Ireland failed to find better players and they're on the roster by default. Particularly Jones and Clemons. Them still being on the roster isn't a success. It's bad. The safety position has been a continuous weak spot for years and those guys still being starters is part of the reason why. Of course we could've had Earl Thomas but...
