Does the position coach work for Jeff Ireland? Does the head coach? Neither of the above have veto power on players, yet if they raised objections to a certain guy then Jeff Ireland very well could steer clear of them.
I've always thought that Parcells represented ownership, meaning that he was on a whole different level when it comes to the organizational power structure of the team. He could not only veto Ireland, but fire him as well. Was this incorrect?
Basically, Huizenga hired Parcells to do Huizenga's job. So yes, in a way Parcells held more power but if that's the standard for final say, no GM in the league has final say. Parcells acted as the de facto owner on day to day business.
The Dolphins were careful to word both Bill Parcells' and Jeff Ireland's contracts to where Jeff Ireland had final say authority on personnel and that Bill Parcells' power did NOT infringe upon that. They had to do that because Jerry Jones didn't want to lose Jeff Ireland prior to the 2008 Draft, he wanted him to finish up that Draft and then go to Miami. In order to give Jones no choice in the matter the Dolphins had to make it clear contractually that Parcells does not have veto power on personnel. However, you are correct that Bill Parcells had the ability to fire Jeff Ireland. Whether you think that's a credible threat just because Jeff Ireland is exercising the power given to him in his contract and doing the job he was hired to do, that's up to you to decide. I don't think firing Ireland was ever a credible threat.
How can we debate this if a certain faction will just make up their own facts. Ireland built this mess. period. There really isn't much else to say.
Pretty much. His contract gave him final say. If he didn't use that, too damn bad. His own fault for being Parcells puppet. With 2 offseasons under his belt as the "not fake, totally real, super official true GM" of the Miami Dolphins, his apologists will have no excuses left as the Dolphins record gets worse 2 years in a row with no Parcells to hold Irelands hand.
In terms of "this mess," Ireland's gonna start looking real good if his developmental players -- Sean Smith, Reshad Jones, Chris Clemons, Koa Misi, Brian Hartline, Charles Clay, Mike Pouncey, John Jerry, and Jared Odrick -- all play better this year than they did last year, which is entirely possible. I think you have to remember just how young this team really is, which means it can make big leaps in performance if players develop like they can.
Not likely, but if by some stroke of pure luck it did, it would be interesting to see how all the people who claim Parcells was responsible for 2008-2010 try to pin all of that on Ireland somehow.
some of those players, are already showing signs of improvement and development. Others in that list, ...not so much. He would need ALL of them to pan out to help his rate of successes reach mere "competence". I don't think some here appreciate what a terrible job he has done. Don't forget that I jumped off the Ireland bandwagon THIS OFFSEASON. enough was enough.
But if you remember that he started a rebuilding project in 2008 or 2009, this could be the year when lots of that rebuilding starts to pay off, when players develop. Brian Hartline for example was drafted in 2009. If he plays as well this year as let's say Jordy Nelson did last year (which is entirely possible based on the progression of their career stats), now you have a different team. And that's just one example. What I'm saying is, the players a guy drafts in a rebuild have to be given enough time to develop to appropriately judge how well he did.
This is his SECOND "rebuild", with three incarnations along the way. Hartline as Jordy Nelson??????? Jordy Nelson caught 68 balls for over 1,200 yards and 15 TD's. I am gonna go ahead and say that he won;t come close. Just gonna go out on a limb with that one. LOL
Yes, it is true. Revert to link. There are enough facts there that show so. http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...and-other-factual-stuff&p=1843577#post1843577
Good point. Ireland already looks good in my eyes. With the exception of WR, the roster is fairly well stocked with young, talented players. We've got 2 1s, 2 2s, 2 3s and a lot of cap space for next year. If Tanne pans out we should have a good team for the next 4-5 years at least. I think some people ***** b/c that's just what they like to do.
Vontae and Marshall are gone for behavioral problems, same as Chad. Who else was let go that gives you the idea the the team is rebuilding?
Statistically, how does Ireland stand on his draft picks and free agents? And how does this compare to other team's front office success/percentages? Utimately wins and loses are the most telling statistics, and because we already know loses are prevalent it is a matter of deciding what are the likely factors. It is not as simple as I put it. If any of you have looked at these rates of success in terms of players making it to the roster please offer it. However, just getting players to make a roster doesn't guarantee a winning record. What part of this falls on coaches. Or any other factor not discussed here. Utlimately, what will get Ireland fired is if he fails to bring a winner to Miami.
What, none of the outspoken Ireland haters want to answer who hired our initial 2008 coaching staff? Why is that? Is it b/c the coaching staff is essentially responsible for dictating what personnel a team brings in based on scheme fit? Is it b/c the coaching staff is responsible for molding and developing the young players? Is it b/c Parcells, not Ireland, hired the inept coaching staff? Or is it b/c if you admit that Parcells hired the coaching staff, you'd essentially be admitting that he carried the most weight and had final say? Perhaps Parcells was paid $12 million to sit around and drink margaritas, fully leaving his reputation in the hands of a 1st time GM.
We ***** because that statement is as far from the truth as possible. On paper, this is the least talented team in the NFL. Rather easily I might add. On paper, so that could change. But the chances are very slim.
What the Ireland apologists fail to answer is how the hell does Parcells having final say have anything to do with Ireland not a being qualified GM? Why is that? How does not having a backbone enough to stand up for your contractual rights of final say make him a qualified GM? I take it you prefer "GM's?" How does the team's record getting worse in his one year without Parcells with the team nearly guaranteed to even be worse than year 2 make this man a qualified GM? I take it you're a fan of losing seasons? How does the least talented team in the league make this guy a qualified NFL GM? I take it you like bad players? How come his apologists refuse to accept the very, very, very likely scenario that Ireland and Parcells were in joint agreement on most moves? Why do all his apologists want to keep this guy around when he's proven absolutely nothing but failure, when there are more qualified individuals out there? "GM's" over GM's again, right?
lol please...the only similarity Hartline and Nelson will have this season is the color of their skin.
Can you tell me the winning lotto numbers, too? I'm fairly close to a convenience store and can get right over there once I hear back from you.
Vontae Davis trade doesn't sit well with me. Sort of pushed me toward the anti, because I just cannot wrap my arms around the logic of doing that trade. But, I am not totally pro or anti either way. I just try to look at every aspect of his tenure on a case by case basis.
As for who had final say from 2008-2010, IMO, all we have to prove it was Parcells is speculation and supposition. Neither Parcell or Ireland has really come right out and unequivocally stated which one exactly had final say when both were here. So, since Ireland's job description says he did, I'll go by that, since it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise. As for the Pat White pick, and Parcells supposedly saying that was his idea, still doesn't mean that he didn't need to get Jeff to agree.
Saying he went along with it could just as well mean he didn't try to talk his protege out of it. He decided to let Jeff swim in the deep end there, without the floaties on his little arms, and the little fella's head went under and he got water up his nose.
An acquaintance of mine told the team he was working for that if they didn't use an upcoming draft pick on a certain player they could fire him or he would resign. They used the pick on the player ( late first /NHL ) and let's say he has since gotten quite a raise . It was warranted. It's your job to believe and to be right more than not , imo.
Are you sure it is another planet? It could be a moon. Some moons have alien life forms too. Pandora is a moon, and lots of aliens living there. Even one who looked a little like Zoë Saldana, but with a tail. I would hop into my space ship and go there, if I could find the one who looked like her.
Difference between final say in personnel and final say in coaching staff. We all can agree Ireland has final say now, but Philbin picked his own coaching staff.
Its a little more than speculation and a little less than 100% fact. Point is, in the face of the evidence and all we know, why would you take the word of an inanimate object, like the contract? Contracts are nothing but suggestions until the courts are involved, they do not inherently make things happen or not. It just seems people are saying facts, schmacts...because Ireland!!! Again, my position is that with all the obvious questions on both sides, just throw the info out, its tainted.
Or his other developmental player Vontae Davis. Oh wait, he's not here anymore. No great loss. We really didn't need another good solid cover corner, since the league has gravitated to primarily a rushing league. Wait. What?
IF???? That is a mighty big IF. Progression of career stats mean very little when the players being compared are not physically even close to the same.
I have proudly never seen that movie. Titanic either (though I did watch the clip of Kate's boobs). I refuse to feed James Cameron's ego.
Marve, I'm just gonna use your post to stuff everything onto. Sorry. The following are quotes or statements by either the organization, news affiliates, or people with knowledge of the Ireland/Parcells situation.
Titanic is about as interesting as watching paint dry, or a watching a soccer game. Heck, even soccer maybe more enjoyable than Titanic. I took a lady friend to see Avatar at the cinema, because she wanted to see it so much, and I was just being a nice friend. It was ok, if you're into tired old story lines put into a futuristic setting and get a boner from seeing spiffy special effects and really neato space ships and stuff. Not my cup o' tea either. I pretended to like it, just to keep the peace.
IMO, the original coaching staff Parcells hired was one of the significant roots of our woes considering the offense was built around Henning's pathetic, outdated scheme. When you tack on Parcells' strict blue print for drafting players to Henning's scheme & Tony Sparano, I'd say that's putting a lot of restrictions on Ireland as well as setting him up for failure. In '08, everything started with Parcells taking Long over Ryan (which I'm ok with) and then sending Henning, Sparano, and Ireland to scout Henne, and as a group they believed Henne was the best fit for Henning's worthless offense. Miami added the injury prone Smiley & drafted Shawn Murphy whom both seem like prototypical Parcells linemen. We also drafted Parmele & Lex, two prototypical Parcells type backs. From '08-'10, Parcells doubled up on draft picks 7 times (RB, WR, G, DE, CB, ILB, OLB). That type of strategy seems to not utilize the BPA approach, and we probably missed out on some talent b/c of it. Hence we end up with a receiver like Pat Turner being slated as Miami's 3rd round pick regardless of who was available (stated as such by Ireland). Comparatively, Ireland doubled up once from '11-'12, but that was coincidental b/c Rishard Matthews clearly represented BPA. In '09, Parcells took his pet cat pick, Pat White, and followed it up with another pet cat pick, John Nalbone, in the 5th round. That really hurt the team considering the talent available. Pat Turner seemed like the prototypical Parcells receiver to fit Henning's run-oriented, possession-style offense. If Philbin & Ireland ran the show, I don't see that same pick being made. '09 also saw a $42 million contract extension to Carey, a prototypical Parcells lineman. After Parcells stepped down, Ireland forced Carey to take a $26 million pay cut or face being released, making it seem like Carey's extension was Parcells' idea, and the reason we were handcuffed w/ Colombo might've been b/c Parcells stuck with Carey too long and made him too much of a priority despite his performance being on the decline. '09 saw the trade of Satele (a zone blocking center more suited for Ireland's preferred WCO scheme) and the arrival of injury-prone Jake Grove, another prototypical Parcells lineman. Shortly after Parcells stepped down Ireland cut Grove and followed it up by drafting Pouncey, a non prototypical Parcells lineman. This all points to Grove being Parcells' idea. In 2011, following Parcells stepping down: - we thankfully saw Ireland not re-sign Ronnie Brown & Ricky Williams (2 Parcells type backs), instead replacing them with an explosive runner/weapon in Bush and a zone runner in Thomas. - the release of Channing Crowder, a prototypical Parcells linebacker, and replaced by the more athletic, better-in-coverage Kevin Burnett (not a protypical Parcells LB). -Jason Taylor was re-signed, a move Parcells wouldn't have stood for, and he added 7 sacks from a situational pass rush role. IMO there's just too much stuff that seemed to have Parcells' finger print all over it, and now that he's stepped down there seems to have been significant change that I would've never expected if Parcells was still running the show, and if this much change has occurred since Parcells left, it makes me greatly question just how much (or how little) say Ireland actually had from '08-'10 b/c I'm looking at a very different type of team, schemes, coaches, drafting styles, and player blueprints.
