A) I'm not sure I follow the logic, B) ...so? There are some close to the program than think Steve Ross mandated that Ryan Tannehill be picked. IF that were the case, then obviously the "process" by which Ryan Tannehill was selected would have been flawed. Doesn't mean Ryan Tannehill is a bad quarterback, does it?
Just because Ireland did'nt hire sparano, and under the assumption that he did hire Philbin, are folks not giving him credit for seeking out Philbin, a coach that most folks seem to think is going to be good..If he found us a good coach how much should that account for in his end of the year evaluation?
When healthy, I don't think the CB group is a weakness. And by weakness I mean either below average talent wise or a clear impediment to winning on the field. I think Smith-Marshall-Carrol-Wilson is about average if you look across the league. Keeping Vontae would certainly have helped this season, but clearly the trade wasn't made with this season in mind (Marshall's trade either). WR I totally agree with, we suck there, and I don't buy the "couldn't know Chad would committ career suicide" line because Chad sucked too. All I would say is that the WR issue was clear to me after watching 1 day of training camp so Irish must have seen it also. He could have traded picks/doled out cash for some better talent but he chose not to. Instead he chose to sacrifice wins this year to save his ammo for later, so I'm willing to wait and see what he does with that ammo before I judge the decision. Some people disagree with that strategy and I respect that, its the people who don't understand that it was a calculated decision that I don't get.
Ok, so I know now where you stand on who hired Philbin..You feel strongly that it was a Ross /Peterson thing.?
I think this is really a good point, and why it's hard for some of us to include the whole five years into his evaluation.. I don't think he had say on who was going to be head coach, and I'm also not sure as to who hired Philbin..And how much Ireland was involved in..this matters when trying to determine whether he should be retained or fired.. Why do we not know the answers to these questions, why aren't reporters asking them?
Right, but if he didn't hire the coach, as some GMs do, and he didn't make the really important roster decisions, which is entirely possible if not probable, given that Parcells was in tow and Ireland was but a mere first-time GM under him, then how can he be held accountable overall for what the team did during that period? Now, if you allow for that possibility, and you allow for the fact that Stephen Ross is well aware of it via his communication with the parties involved, then you can see why Ireland has gotten a reprieve, and why the real measure of Jeff Ireland's performance in Stephen Ross's mind begins this year, with a new head coach and a new, first-round quarterback.
I got it. Ireland was a major factor in hiring the (failed) coach when Parcells was directly above him. But after Parcells was gone and Ireland became the top football guy, that's when he lost his high level of involvement and Ross/Peterson, who fired the failed coach that Ireland was a major factor in hiring, kept Ireland on board and hand picked a coach for him to work with. Perhaps Ireland is a damn good GM who sucks at picking coaches and isn't trusted by his bosses, or Ross/Peterson are total bafoons who keep crappy GMs they didnt hire and dont trust but excel at choosing good coaches like Harbaugh and Philbin(thus far). That's some John Grisham level stuff right there.
Like I said, why is it taboo for our own reporters down here to get some information on who the fu&$ is running this organization..there absolutely no public accountability.
I've said before that the only way you can make sense of this overall scenario regarding Jeff Ireland is to think Ross and Peterson, despite putting their heads together, one a billionaire and the other a man with decades of NFL front office experience, are stupid. At that point you're left in the position of being a fan on a message board, with little if any knowledge of the inner workings of the team, calling a billionaire and a long-time NFL front office guy stupid. Not a real smart place to be IMO.
I've asked the question in your first paragraph since the beginning if time it seems..it's the merry go round were on in this situation.. Logic tells me that this is the case..however, since he took over personnel at least the last two years, it's not looking that great for me.
1. It depends on what you believe to be the General Manager's job description. If you're primarily concerned about his ability to find you good players then you evaluate him on whether he finds you good players. If you want him to be pretty much your guy in charge of the organization including the hiring and firing of coaches then you take the coach evaluation into consideration absolutely, regardless of whether his finger was on the final trigger or not. You look at how he helped you in the assembling of good coaching candidates, etc. You take all of that into account. 2. At the same time...how do we know Philbin is a good coach? Are we able to separate the fan-optimism from the evaluation enough to maybe recognize that we don't know that one way or another yet? This time in Sparano's first year as coach, we loved him, ate everything up that he said and did, and were calling for him to be named Coach of the Year (which I believe he ended up sharing with Atlanta's head coach).
That's the disconnect. Ireland and Parcells made those decisions together and Ireland was on board with every one of them except one or two.
Then why would Ross and Peterson put their heads together and come away with the idea that Jeff Ireland's involvement with personnel during that part of his tenure warranted his continued employment?
I'd imagine some of it has to do with the rules that Parcells had in place in regards to dealing with the media, at least during his time here. Recall that as soon as Parcells left, Ireland, Dee (maybe Ross too) and Co. made rounds to local newspapers, had some more press conferences, etc. in an effort to become more transparent. I think that was in the wake of the so-called "protest" across the street from Dolphins HQ. The rest of that...well, just look at who some of the beat writers are. Barry Jackson's leaked a few things in his Sports Buzz over time. But he's the only one. I wouldn't trust Omar or Armando if they were passing along that kind of info, would you? As far as Jackson reporting such things, for instance, Pat White being a Parcells pick. I'm fairly sure another one was Parcells forcing Ireland to recoup the 2nd rounder he lost when he traded for Brandon Marshall in 2010. I also think that front office structure is one of the reasons there's a lot of bad PR when it comes to Miami. The structure, at least during Parcells' time here, was so shrouded that you don't know who is responsible for what, and we still don't. You've seen that echoed by players like Joey Porter, Channing Crowder, and Ryan Clark, at least in terms of Jeff Ireland's dealings. If you believe Michael Lombardi, the front office structure is why Jim Harbaugh never seriously entertained coming to Miami. There's a reason Peyton Manning and Jeff Fisher didn't come here either. I think a majority of that has to do with either the structure of the front office - working with Jeff Ireland, Jeff Ireland himself, or a combination of both. I think Stephen Ross made a major mistake when he didn't get rid of Ireland with Sparano. He could've cut bait right there and gotten himself somewhat clear of the mysteries of that tenure. He didn't, and I think that's why you heard things like the rumor that Ireland all but told Mike McCoy he was going to be Miami's coach, only to see Joe Philbin hired the next day. Regardless of what Ireland's rosters have or haven't done on the field, he's certainly generated far more bad PR than good. That, and the talk that Miami's always got a "good team" and that the "playoffs are the goal" etc. and so forth. If they called a spade a spade and just said that Miami was in a rebuild mode, I think at least some fans would have more patience. Miami's not done that publicly to my knowledge. With one more loss, they'll have achieved the longest streak of non-winning seasons in franchise history. Yes, franchise history - 4 in a row. There's only one major constant that's been around for that era, and that's Jeff Ireland. That's why I think he's the "scapegoat" as many people want to call him, but with "General Manager" as his position title, he's viewed as the architect of this whole thing (even if in reality he didn't have final authority over picks, signings, etc. Maybe he did, as you said, we don't know). But all that's been mounting through the worst stretch of non-winning in franchise history. Something's got to give.
A) What does Peterson have to do with this? There's never been any real evidence that Peterson has been involved in any of this. B) I don't know. Why did Steve Ross undermine Tony Sparano by publicly interviewing a potential replacement, and then give Tony a contract extension something like 10 months before turning around and firing him? Was that a GOOD idea? Are we assuming that because Steve Ross did something, it must have been a good idea?
Whether it was a calculated decision or not, where we disagree is whether or not Ireland should be left in charge for another year. Why should this team take a wait and see approach on a guy who has already been part of a failed rebuild? Why should this team take a wait and see approach with someone who so epically failed in free agency this season? Why should this team take a wait and see approach with a guy who has been a public relations nightmare? Why should this team take a wait and see approach on a guy who has failed to address several key skill positions over the course of 5 season? I also respect your stance. I just don't think it's worth the gamble to give a man who has "failed" up until this point another shot. I've seen nothing to make me think Ireland won't keep "building" this team with more antiquated Parcellian methodology.
He also turned around and fired Sparano off of the same contract. Why didn't he fire Ireland as well? Clearly he was disappointed in how the team had played and thought a major change needed to be made. Why didn't that change involve firing the GM as well?
Because how much he was a part of it is the key question. Do any of us know? By contrast, do you think Stephen Ross knows? There is a gamble as well in hiring somebody new.
Maybe he was just as snookered by a mirage 6-3 finish as you and many were that he thought we had more talent then we did.
What's the gamble in hiring someone new? According to the objective analysis you claim to be so important, most GMs are average, including Ireland. If that's true, then the odds of hiring somebody particular worse than Ireland are pretty small. So what's the risk? Maybe you find the enxt big thing. At worst you have somebody comparable to Ireland.
I'll see if I can find something to back it up, but I think the real stumbling block was Ireland. Parcells wanted him in Atlanta, and the Falcons were hesitant for some reason. Atlanta may have had no issue with Sparano. But I'll admit at the moment I'm only going on memory here.
I don't understand the point of this line of questioning. He didn't fire Jeff Ireland PROBABLY because he truly believed that Jeff Ireland has done a good job acquiring good players. In fact, he said so multiple times. He said he believed that Miami underperformed their talent in 2011 and that they were not a 6-10 team. He said he expects to compete for the playoffs. How he came to be convinced of those things is anyone's guess but it's also not relevant. I once was convinced that Brady Quinn would be a good quarterback. Does it matter how I came to be convinced of that? It doesn't really matter, I was wrong either way, and being wrong was always an admitted possibility leading up to the draft, during the draft, after the draft, etc.
And there's the irresolvable point in the 2 sides of the debate. You choose to absolve him of guilt during the first couple of years, I choose to consider him at the very least complicit. My argument here is the same as it's always been for QBs. Just because there is a risk, doesn't mean you don't try and upgrade a key position when the incumbent isn't getting it done. GM is one of, if not the most important, positions on any team.
Some people acknowledge that Ireland was responsible for it all but still think he's done a good job.
The easy answer is because I dont have a fraction of the football knowledge, practical experience, inside info, or overall perspective as the man who's actually putting his livelihood on the line to make the decisions that we discuss casually, for entertainment, on this forum. But I suspect you want something more, so here goes. Our defense is for real. They have kept us competitive in all but one game this season despite the offense's efforts to give several games away. Dan Carpenter's missed FGs cost us two wins this year, we blew 5 4th quarter leads last year, we're 5-7 in a rebuilding season with rookies at QB, HC, and DC. We're a young team, with lots of talent but a couple of glaring weaknesses in a league where the line between 6 wins and 10 wins is incredibly thin. Those weaknesses are not easily eliminated, but none are, and ours (WR/TE) are IMO easier to address than most others. We have plenty of cap space and draft picks, and if this were Madden I would have simulated the season and gone straight to the draft/FA period after week 4 or 5. By then I had seen all I needed to see. We have what appears to be a long term answer at QB for the first time since what's his name. We're better and younger than the Bills or Jets, we're on par or better than the Pats with the exception of one soon to be 35 yr old QB. If we re-sign our difference makers, sign an impact FA or two and draft well we will be in position to be a good team for several years. Oh, and the Miami Heat. Nothing takes the sting out of a losing season in football than an elite basketball team.
IMO, at the end of the season Ross and Philbin should have a behind closed doors chat to determine Ireland's fate. He's spent a year working with the guy if he's willing to bet on his own future to save the guy, I guess we have to accept that. Then if things don't improve, clean house once again. Everybody should be on short leashes until the days of winning are restored.
I guess we don't have to worry about our place in the draft then. Enjoy even less fans in the stadium Ross? You going for a record low for a Dolphins game?
And how big were the weaknesses, functionally? We're still pining off of Vontae Davis potential rather than reality, and I don't think we've lost a tremendous amount even with Richard Marshall going down. It's unfair to judge Davis off of what he's done with the Colts, but I don't really think there's tangibly that much of a difference between him and whom we've had starting opposite this year. As for wide receiver, there's a pretty good chance that Brian Hartline and Davone Bess this year will be equally or more productive than Brandon Marshall, Davone Bess, and Brian Hartline last year.
Neither do I. This defense has a great defensive line, which you would expect from a team built with a Parcellian philosophy but it has been exposed and has continued to be exposed by the elite passing teams. It's a passing league so that's a real problem. I'll respond to your nutty Madden analogy . Would be a mistake to simulate then. We've learned a lot more about Tannehill, this defense and many other players and coaches over these past few games. Every game we learn something new, good or bad, about this team. Sadly, I don't follow the NBA or care much for it so this doesn't placate me very much. But I do wish the Heat well if for no other reason that they share a city with my beloved Dolphins.
I kind of wondered if Ross would try to have a one on one chitchat with Philbin about Ireland, but man, that would likely be a real uncomfortable conversation for Philbin. So much so that I'm really not sure Ross would do it, or if he did I don't see Philbin being the type to throw Ireland under the bus if he felt Ireland wasn't right for the job. I don't know. If a conversation did take place like that though, I would love to be a fly on the wall.
I agree. I think some people on here are so happy that Sparano is no longer the HC, they would feel any new HC was a great hire. Philbin may end up being a very good HC in the NFL, but he is still a huge question mark right now. The fact is that the Dolphins are two games under 500 at this time, against what many considered a very easy schedule. If the season ended right now, they would end up in last place in the AFC East. Ireland supporters have maintained for a few years that there is plenty of talent on the roster, but that the Dolphins were a sub 500 because of Sparano. I happen to think there is a severe lack of talent on the roster and Ireland has done a terrible job as the teams GM. The Dolphins appear headed for their fourth consecutive losing season. Sparano is no longer here to take the blame. Either Philbin is no upgrade over Sparano or Ireland has provided him a team with limited talent. I would love to be a fly on the wall when Ireland meets with Ross after this season and he tries to explains to Ross why the team finished below 500 again. I guess Ireland will blame it all on Philbin and his coaching staff. Just like he blamed all the previous losing seasons on Sparano. Hopefully Ross will be smart enough to see the truth this time.
I thought the Vontae trade hurt our depth this year. Guys had to step up and take on bigger roles. Nolan Carroll hasn't been horrendous this year, but the guys behind him haven't been great. Richard Marshall wasn't playing spectacular before he got hurt, either. Hartline and Bess have limited skill sets. They're "between the 20's guys". Nice complimentary players, yes, but you need more. Brandon Marshall or no, the team needs a legit playmaker at the position. Can you get away with those two guys and a Mike Wallace? Perhaps. Either way, you're not going to build around them so there's definitely a hole there.
What's going on is that this team is not getting better. 1 Pro Bowler drafted in 5 years isn't getting it done. As a matter of fact, the draftee retention is abysmal as well. Here's a little chart I made using teams that have a competent front office and have/are building perennial contenders and then compared it to the 5 years Ireland has been at the helm. [TABLE] [TR] [TD="class: xl24"]Team[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, width: 64"]Picks[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, width: 64"]Roster[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, width: 64"]Retention[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25"]ATL[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]38[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]30[/TD] [TD="class: xl26"]79%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25"]BAL [/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]39[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]27[/TD] [TD="class: xl26"]69%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25"]GB [/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]42[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]28[/TD] [TD="class: xl26"]67%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25"]HOU [/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]40[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]25[/TD] [TD="class: xl26"]63%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25"]MIA [/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]41[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]21[/TD] [TD="class: xl26"]51%[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] As you can plainly see, not only are the good teams already better, they're moving further ahead every year. As a matter of fact, Miami has already released as many players drafted this year as the other 4 combined. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/
Maybe right, though I see Philbin in a different way. I see a coach who has no problem cutting ties with anyone who does not fit with what he's trying to do with this team. If he believes Ireland is hindering his team in any way, he'll do what he can to improve the situation. If we/Ross buys into Coach Philbin, I think it should be his call.
You're right. This year he would've had more than 70 targets by default.... but that's not the way Philbin prefers it to be. Don't you think GB has a lot of targets because they want to spread the ball around (as Philbin's philosophy states) rather than spreading the ball around b/c they have so many targets? It's quite possible that Brandon would've been satisfied with the number of targets this year, but that doesn't say anything about the future nor Marshall being in the disgruntled mindset of working with a rookie QB after recently tearing up the Pro Bowl and making a comment about his capability with a good QB (which doubled as a knock against Moore). It's just not worth the risk when you're trying to establish a new team mentality, improve its character, and develop leadership from your 1st round rookie QB, ya know. I absolutely adore Marshall, bought his jersey, and spent some money on five of his 2006 Exquisite Rookie Signature Patch cards, but he was simply too much of a potential risk, and if he didn't cost so much and weren't so much of a type A personality, that risk would've been palatable.
I don't think "depth" should be a huge consideration when you're talking about getting a second for a guy who is depreciating in value. You can use whatever labels you want, but their production pretty much is what it is. In the context of the "between the 20's" thing, that would be a whole lot more compelling if: A. It was actually in practice an problem, rather than a theoretical. B. Wasn't solvable by adding a mediocre red zone specialist. If adding Plaxico Burress circa 2012 fixes your problem, it wasn't actually a problem.
