The Jeff Ireland Discussion Thread

Players take time to develop! They aren't finished products at the points in their careers when you made those statements.

The view of this roster in the offseason was tremendously static. Almost no one was leaving any room for development.

 

Who's to say Philbin didn't take a look at the tape, evaluate where Brian Hartline was in his development, take into consideration the offensive scheme he would be implementing, and feel like Brandon Marshall's "replacement" was indeed BRIAN HARTLINE?

 

Who is replacing Hartline while he is replacing Marshall? Until we signed Gaffney, who has yet to play, it was Naanee. That is inexcusable IMO.

 

I'm not saying we should have kept Marshall. However I think you're creating a Wanny/Jay Fielder/Drew Brees situation. The infamous "What throws can Brees make that Fiedler can't?" line. I don't see how anyone can say Brandon Marshall doesn't do things Brian Hartline can't.

We are in serious trouble if we plan on counting on Brian Hartline to be our #1 WR into the future. We are going to have serious issues scoring points unless we add an actual #1 receiver. I have no issue with Hartline between the 20's as a #2 guy but he needs to be upgraded upon. If you put an actual #1 receiver on the field with Hartline as your #2 option and Bess in the slot you suddenly become a very formidable offense.

 

I find your new avatar, of the thief in some Islamic country, rather unsettling. I hope you do not keep it long.

 

Who said he wasn't replaced?.... or are you referring to the delay in replacing him?

If we replace him with a better receiver next year than we could've done this year, what will your stance be?

 

I guess what we do in next year's FA and draft will provide your answer, as will the yearly salary Hartline signs for.

 

It's Charles Clay, he has no hands. But I get what you're saying I just need to find a better picture of a guy with no hands. Its not as easy as it sounds.

 

the bottom line is we have 5 picks in the first 3 rounds to go along with all that cap space....but unfortunately I have no faith in the guy currently making the football decisions to hit on those picks or sign the right guys. sorry.

with the right moves, we can go from pretender to contender in one offseason. you guys really willing to roll the dice on this golden opportunity with Jeffy calling the shots?

 

100%. The Marshall and Davis trades certainly suggest that Irish feels he is on solid ground job wise.

If Tannehill pans out, we're not far away from being a good team. There's a solid foundation of youth a talent here, obviously need help at WR and a some reinforcements at CB would be nice, but I don't think firing the GM is anywhere in the immediate future.

 

100%.

Garrard is gone b/c Tannehill stepped up. Westerman and Hicks are gone b/c of Vernon and Shelby. Johnson beat his wife and embarrassed the organization. Nannee was garbage but he was on a 1 yr vet minimum contact, same as Johnson and Westerman, BTW. I won't be shedding tears over any of them.

 

I heard people talking about how we now have the NFL leader in rec yds, so maybe we did replace him

 

Couldn't agree more. Getting a group of homegrown players (Jones, Smith, Jerry, Bush, Thomas, Hartline, Starks, Clemons, etc) to play a little better is a lot more conducive to improving the team than signing a bunch of new guys, and cheaper too.

 

I agree we didnt "replace" him, but Megatron and Fitz were apparently unavailable. What I take issue with is the idea Irish is a noob who didn't know we had a problem there. Marshall caliber WRs don't grown on trees. You either draft and develop them, or over pay via trade/FA. Unfortunately there were no Marshall caliber wideouts in the draft, and Irish was busy doing other things, like getting a us a potential star at QB, shoring up a porous OL, and taking BPAs. If Ireland doesn't fix WR by next year then by all means, string em up, I'll bring the rope.

 

If we are to assume Hartline adequately replaces Marshall, then who replaces Hartline in his former role? If it is Bess, then who replaces him? Until we finally signed Gaffney, the vacancy in the WR corps was filled with Naanee and Chad, and to me that in inexcusably poor planning.

 

My stance will be we played the 2012 season undermanned at the WR position because Ireland filled the vacancy in the WR corps created when he traded Marshall, by signing a never was in Naanee and a has been in Chad. That is until Gaffney was finally signed. Now the team finally has 3 viable NFL quality WRs. A Gaffney type of WR should have been signed 3 months ago.

So maybe there will be a better Wr available next year. Well why not wait til 2014? Maybe there will be an even better one available that year. There was a season to play in the meantime, but I guess that's not important...

 

Maybe so. But I'm inclined to think the plan was to scrape by this season and continue building via the draft instead of over paying for a FA or trade.

 

Every GM makes errors. If you look at what Naanee did last year, it was reasonable to think he could replace the numbers Hartline had last year.

Now, should Ireland be taken to task more for making a single error such as that, or for drafting a 4th-round receiver and signing a UDFA who are currently performing among the league's best at their position?

IMO it's insane to "zero in" on one error and make a grand conclusion from it, without looking at the overall body of work, especially when successes such as Hartline and Bess are so glaring, and especially when ALL GM's make errors. What, is Ireland supposed to be the one perfect GM out of them all?

 

I don't think Jeff Ireland should have reasonably assumed that Chad Johnson would have committed career suicide, and right now he would have likely looked like a pretty reasonable addition in terms of price and probable output along side Hartline and Bess- He was unlikely to be a savior, but he didn't need to be.

Naanee was signed to be 4th string or worse for the most part.

 

and vice versa.

of course I will take it to my grave. I'm right. MrClean said it best. Hindsight.

 

All I will say is this, this type of offense that they insist on playing can really use a competent #1,#2, and #3 running routes. We still don't have that.

Keeping Marshall, or after trading him, replacing him with a better fit was still the best course of action.

 

Its impossible to replace someone with Marshall's ability in free agency. The closest one would be Vincent Jackson, and thats not a contract the team should be taking on.

The problem with Marshall is he has a mental illness, and has a history of berating teammates and coaches. I think there is a valid argument that his presence would be detrimental to a rookie QB, despite his ability.

 

You don;t have to replace him completely. I am speaking of a competent replacement, meaning NOT Chad Johnson (washed up) or Nannee (wish he was washed up).

I am talking about using a first day draft pick or a Robert Meachem type, or flipping a pick for a Santana Moss, Nate Washington, etc...

Main thing being, I believe that once you take a QB high, you better make every effort to make sure that he succeeds.

 

I certainly agree. I think if you look at the draft, most of the picks went to helping the offense. You could make an argument for a Meachem or Manningham type.

 

Actually it's more like refuted foresight.

 

I won't mention the error of trading a solid starting corner, recently drafted in the 1st round, because some probably think I mention it too much, and replacing him with someone off the waiver wire. Though if you are the one who believes Stanford is Davis' equal, then you probably think we are ok there. Sure, we got a 2nd rounder next year, but there is the small detail of having a season to play in the meantime with a less talent at the corner position. Though if you believe we had no chance at the playoffs either way, then maybe you think the draft pick will net a better player than was traded, so it's a good deal. Maybe it's just me, but I'd have rather gone into this season with the best players possible. Maybe RJ Stanford will end up surprising me, and prove to be Davis' equal this season. Then if that be the the case, I will bow to the greatness that is Ireland. Erin go Braugh, and all that stuff.

I looked at Naanee's numbers from last year, and maybe it's just me, but I didn't consider him a reasonable replacement for Hartline's former role.

 

or...not ignoring Reggie Wayne completely....

I thought he was done. Boy was I wrong on that one.

 

I agree. The first steps are giving him a running game so he doesn't have to win games on his own, and giving him a decent OL so he doesn't get his head beaten in.

 

not really. If you use a non-biased critical eye, our complaints are getting smarter by the week.

The two moves/non-moves can be the difference between a playoff berth or not.

 

My sentiments exactly. I'm glad someone else refuses to be obtuse on the matter.

 

And I'm sure if we fail to make the playoffs, it'll be confirmation of whatever viewpoint you brought to the table initially.

...in your mind at least.

 

What I don't understand is that many of the posters that were critical of Ireland have been littering the boards today and last night with posts admitting they may have been harsh. Admitting that this team is performing much better than expected. Praising Ireland's acquisitions like Reshad Jones and Koa Misi. Heck, even Fin-O was joining in.

But at a position where Ireland was clearly negligent, even in hindsight, we could barely get even the slightest bit of admittance. In fact, it's bordering on denial at this point.

Yesterday, Charles Clay was lined up as our 3rd WR in 3 WR sets. Charles Clay.
The only 2 WRs on the roster that had the ball thrown in their direction were Brian Hartline and Davonne Bess.


It's ok to be a little critical sometimes. This is one of those times.

 

And the team won in large part because Brian Hartline and Davone Bess made plays.

The problem with the preseason "foresight" was that it didn't allow for the further development of Bess and Hartline into the players they are, and they are among the league's best.

Instead, the sentiment was along the lines of, "how can you go into the season with DAVONE BESS and BRIAN HARTLINE as your starters?"

Well, not only can you do that, but you can also have them perform among the league's leaders and win games for you.

So now the focus has shifted to "Ireland didn't replace Marshall with anyone who could BACK UP Hartline and Bess," in order to preserve some degree of "correctness" in that preseason "foresight," while ignoring the GLARING personnel coup of finding league-leading wide receivers in the 4th round and off the street.

Hello?

 

So you've gone from complaining that we're one of, if not the worst, teams in the league, to complaining that we could possibly miss the playoffs. Deion Sanders couldn't backpedal that fast.

 

Which is entirely valid and a mistake on Ireland's part. Who cares where the focus was before and where it is now.

Replacing Marshall with anyone who is worthy of getting passing targets in an NFL game would've been better than what Ireland did.

Just because hindsight has proven that replacing Marshall with another Marshall-type ability wasn't necessary does certainly not mean that replacing Marshall with an NFL caliber receiver was not necessary. And yet, it's like pulling teeth for anyone who was not critical of Ireland to admit

 

In debate it's called "moving the goalposts."

In essence his "field goal" will always sail right through the middle with plenty of distance, because the goalposts will continually be moved to ensure it.

 

In the heat of the "Fire Ireland" debates, when a fire Ireland thread was propping up every couple of days...There were people like me saying that we had a decent roster, that WR was the only position where we had a serious problem. "Ireland defenders, Ireland apologists, blind optimists, etc etc," is what I heard from the "realists". And now the realists who were screaming that we had a talentless bunch of crap for a roster are saying "Oh, Ireland sucks because we don't have any WRs."

Riiiiight.

 

Sure, and like I've said already, every GM makes mistakes.

However, not every GM pulls league-leading wide receivers out of the fourth round and off the street.

So in your overall evaluation of Ireland, are you actually telling me the mistake of Legedu Naanee as a #3 or #4 receiver should be given more weight than the tremendous success of landing Brian Hartline and Davone Bess as a fourth-rounder and street free agent?

 

What I see, is that even though most of the predictions were flat out wrong, they are clinging to one of the more incorrect ones about WR.

1. We have no idea how they tried to fill the Marshall void. They may have been met with prices too damn high for other WRs like Wallace.
2. CJ playing at 50% of his old self would make us 4-1. No one could have reasonably seen him getting in trouble with the law for the first time during camp.
3. They obviously wanted Gaffney earlier, but he wasn't healthy.

I think that many people were just flat out wrong about the potential effectiveness of our WR group and are overly naive about the possibilities of acquiring a top tier WR.