The Jeff Ireland Discussion Thread

strong and/or deep enough at certain positions to qualify as decent overall. Obviously we have holes and needs, but what team doesn't. Plenty of teams win SBs despite having a weak link somewhere. People thought the Niners were talentless before Harbaugh arrived; then all of a sudden you began seeing their talent emerge, and now much of that team looks loaded.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong but I was under the impression the dead cap space this year is what's helping us have $60 million in fun cap space next year, some the year after that, as well as relieve contracts of unneeded players (Bell & Carey) which saves us money in the long run despite taking an immediate hit for doing so.

 

first of all we got a lot more holes than just WR. secondly, we had this grand canyon sized hole at WR going into this past draft with 4 picks in the first 3 rounds and Ireland still didn't address it.

we have SOME building blocks in place, not most.

the current issues we have are due to our current GM's failure to hit on picks in the draft or sign the right guys in free agency. our WRs suck because Gates, BJ Cunningham, Turner, Wilford, Wallace, Fuller, Moore, Kevin Curtis, Pruitt all did nothing. Chad Johnson didn't even get a chance to do anything. Hartline is average, not a deep threat, not a red zone threat, not a playmaker. the only legit WR we had Ireland traded away and replaced him with Legadu Naanee.

we have no pass rush opposite Wake because our 2nd round pick cant rush the passer. our TE group is limited because Fasano is average, Clay isn't developing fast enough and Egnew cant even get on the damn field. the right side of the line is still questionable because Jerry, Garner, Hicks, Columbo, McQuistan, Proctor, Feinga all sucked, Carey was too old, and we drafted a weakling left tackle and tried to make him into a right tackle and he's just not ready right now.

our secondary aint **** because our set of 5th round safeties have done nothing but get hurt, drop interceptions, take bad angles and blow coverages, we traded away our most talented corner, gibril wilson sucked, so did culver, benny sapp, and eric green, and on and on and on.

bottom line, you give a superior GM the ammo we have in free agency and the draft and in one offseason he can turn this team around.

 

At most positions I'm not happy with our depth. We could use depth improvements across the board, but for the starting 26, inc nickel, punter, kicker, LS, the main things we need are Martin to play up to his potential, and better WRs. Right after that, I'd love to see us get a ball hawking safety, at least one. Jones and Clemons are workmanlike, play the run decently most of the time, but not playmakers. It has been since Brock Marion in 2002 that we've had a safety get 5 ints in a season, and Brian Walker in 2000 that we had one get over 5.
Arturo Freeman and Sammy Knight had 4 each in 2004, and right now even that amount would seem huge.
Let's not even talk about the ability of our corners to pick off passes. Smith has 3 in 48 career games. Marshall has 17 in 97 games.
We should not be satisfied with the defense's ability to take the ball away from opposing offenses. Am I wrong here?

 

Just from the position that he is in his 2 nd year with total control..

Released Ronnie Brown...excellent move.

Released Bell..aging player with a good replacement in Jones..

Will Allen..youth movement, injury riddled.

Vernon Carey..cut fat *** underachieving in prime..excellent move..

Cut Crowder...excellent move.

Mike Pouncey...word is, like Sec said, " did things in the game that I haven't seen a lineman do in a long time"...Philbin.

Daniel Thomas...kid looked good to me..

Charles Clay..decent backup player, draft value..

Jimmy Wilson..

Kevin Burnett.

Jason Trunsik.

Rishard Marshall.

Has all 2013 draft picks.

Added extra high 2nd.

Added extra 3rd

Added extra 6 th..

Drafted franchise caliber Qb..

Jon Martin.

Olivier Vernon

Lamar Miller

Richard Matthews.

Marcus Thigpen..

No hit in Chad Johnson..

Fired old coach..

Hired new coach..

Resigned Paul Solai.

Reggie Bush..

That being said, it's about being a quality talent evaluator, I think what he's done in terms of good moves deserves him the benefit of the doubt til the end of the year, that way we can see what this years class looks like.

 

41 of the top 64 WRs in the league according to PFF last season, were drafted by the end of the 3rd round. So roughly 2/3s
11 of the top 16 were taken in the first 3 rounds. So it is not true that it's as likely to get a good WR late or as a UDFA

 

In what world does decent qualify as strong and deep ? Perhaps that is why you praise Ireland , and understood if that is your thought process. Who thought the 9ers were talentless before last year?

 

If the attendance is an issue, they stand to fix that by adding talent much more than by firing Jeff Ireland. Your average fan is going to buy a ticket to see talent, not a new GM.

Firing Jeff Ireland would do little to inspire the average fan to attend games. It's only these eccentric goofballs who buy billboards and picket outside the team headquarters in Davie who would buy tickets because Jeff Ireland is fired, and those people are such fanatics they're buying tickets anyway.

Which newspaper headline is going to inspire more ticket sales to the average fan: 1) "Dolphins fire Jeff Ireland," or 2) "Dolphins sign Greg Jennings, Dwayne Bowe, and Jason Witten."

 

I disagree with the majority of this, but I would like to point out the flawed logic in adding an extra 3rd and 2nd. We got this picks for trading players that we gave up a he'll of a lot more for. Talented players too... not impressive at all.

 

Dolphins trade Brandon Marshall and Vonte Davis and show nothing in return for this year. Eschew impact FA's, tickets become scarce. Read all about it.

 

I don't think you understand what I said. The team has holes obviously, but it also has positions that are strong, some that are strong and deep. I also said that young players who have plenty of upside shouldn't be labeled as talentless just b/c they have some growing and developing to do. Considering there's no team in the NFL that's strong and deep at every position, never has been, nor will there ever be, I'd consider our entire team to be decent talent overall.

Perhaps b/c of your criticism of Ireland you choose to dismiss all our young ascending talent as being inferior despite them not having enough time to develop and reach their playing maturity. Tannehill, Martin, Odrick, Egnew, DT, Clay, Lamar Miller, Rishard Matthews, Sean Smith, Rashad Jones, Koa Misi, Olivier Vernon, John Jerry. All these guys are young, talented players whom you're obviously judging based on exactly how they are now rather than what they're capable of once they've had enough seasoning. For some reason you seem to assess this team as if it's an entire group of seasoned veterans.

much of the country, including many Niner fans IIRC.

 

Good thing football's not over after 2012 and moves CAN actually be made for the team's future, not just the current year.

 

And if someone were to debate you on the logic of that, what would probably ensue is a disagreement whose foundation consists of a philosophical difference regarding the importance of physical variables versus emotional ones, and we'd have no way of knowing who's right. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

 

Like I told someone else, perhaps you should complain to Marshall & Vontae for being problematic and/or distracting and putting themselves in a position to be traded in the first place.....

and perhaps you should express your contempt to Ross & Ireland for firing Sparano b/c if they didn't do that, they wouldn't have hired Joe Philbin, a coach who employs an offensive philosophy predicated upon spreading the ball around rather than feeding one primary receiver.

Based on Brandon Marshall's past actions, I'm not sure why you can't wrap your head around how disgruntled Marshall would've been in an offense limiting him to roughly 70 catches (which is what Jordy Nelson saw in GB) and with a rookie QB throwing him the ball. This isn't Madden football where the human factor doesn't need to be considered.

 

FYI he has decided to focus on building for next year and beyond instead of going all in this season.

I find it hard to believe that people can accurately identify what Ireland is doing w/o the having the slightest clue about why he is doing it.

 

I was actually a 2, two 3s and a 6. I'm not impressed either but I understand why it was done.

 

Young ascending talent? Really? On the Dolphins? That's one of the main reasons that people want Ireland fired. There is no chance we become a playoff team next year. You can't rebuild an entire roster in one year.

I wish I had more time to debate this but I have a busy life. Good luck with everyone debating Ireland's fate.

 

As a former season ticket holder for more then 30 plus years. The, "Dolphins fire Jeff Ireland", headline would put my butt back in the seat at the stadium immediately. As far as the Dolphins signing any of the players you mentioned, I would take a wait and see approach before deciding if I want to be a season ticket holder again.

You may not like my answer, but that is just how I feel. This team has more holes than the WR and TE spots. I am willing to give Ireland this year to prove to me that he knows what he is doing, but I will admit that I stopped buying season tickets a few years ago because I didn't like the direction this team was going under Ireland and Sparano. I happen to know many former season ticket holders who would be happy to once again purchase tickets, if Ireland were to be replaced as the teams GM.

 

Then I suspect you aren't an average fan. I suspect rather that you're part of the far smaller group of folks who would do such a thing, which means I doubt strongly that Stephen Ross would base any of his major decisions (such as firing his GM) on what you would do.

In other words, Stephen Ross stands to get more butts in the seats by signing Jennings, Bowe, and Witten than by firing Ireland IMO, despite the fact that those butts wouldn't consist of you and a relatively small group of others like you.

 

Neither player they got unreasonable returns on. They didn't get as much as they paid a couple years earlier, but they got fair market value for a player that they had good reasoning to move

Brandon Marshall was available to the Dolphins because he is an *******. The deal was made on the assumption that a change in scenery may potentially result in him no longer being as huge of an *******. That clearly did not work out, and the Dolphins are lucky that they were able to recoup that much of the cost for him. Two second round picks turning into two 3rds and 2 years of pretty good play is not an awful exchange rate. It's not ideal, but it's a **** of a lot better than Marshall being terrible, Marshall being rendered unable to play for extended periods of time through suspension or injury, or him doing something that would force him off the team for less. Those were all very plausible outcomes.

Vontae Davis there is even less grounds of complaint for. We drafted him in the 1st round, he didn't live up to expectations, and we got a 2nd for him. If you think that's bad, you should probably go look at a draft that is a couple years past and see how many players would actually draw that same round in trade now. Most of Davis' peers in the 2009 1st round would not draw a 2nd round pick in trade today.

 

The season ticket requests have been going down for several years now. A few years ago the Dolphins traded for Brandon Marshall, yet season tickets sales continued to decline even after this trade. I agree that winning will take care of the fans showing up at the games. I just think that a lot of the fans who have decided not to renew their season tickets are just completely frustrated with Ross and Ireland at this time.

The Dolphins went 1-15 in 2007, but season ticket sales actually increased a bit in 2008 because, Wayne Huizenga hired Bill Parcells to run the football team. Even though this eventually didn't turn out well for the organization. The fact that Huizenga made changes at the top after the dismal 2007 season showed fans that he was willing to do what was necessary to bring a winner to Miami.

There are over 20,000 season ticket holders who have stopped buying season tickets over the past few years. If you don't think this doesn't have a lot to do with Ross and Ireland, you obviously are completely out of touch with the sports fans in the South Florida area.

 

My family has had season tickets for 32 years. We renewed this season during the Peyton Manning chase. I guess we continue to be suckers, but the end of the line is coming.

If Ross brings back Ireland then that could be the last straw. Espescially since they want your money before they actually sign anybody, so I have to gamble over a grand that we might actually sign Jennings/Wallace/whoever. The last two years I've gambled that we'd sign Harbaugh and Manning. Came up snake eyes both times.

 

You put thoughts in your posts, and take time to write them out nicely, so I'm going to disagree with the bolded. Respectfully thats my opinion.

I don't know what you see in Martin. I don't think he'll ever be the mauler than most RTs are. He has been woeful at RT thus far.

Our TE trio is not good, the problem is, Fasano and Clay show up at random times, and they drop the ball(literally and figuratively) too often for this level. And I won't say Egnew has been dreadful, if you say he won't be a pro-bowler one day. The jury is out, he's a rookie.

The RB group scares me. Bush is a baller, but has been injury prone. D. Thomas has been a disaster. Injury prone, soft, and bad. We gave up draft picks to move up and get this guy with a high pick. He has been nothing short of a disaster, and his nail in the coffin turn over last week was typical of him. Slaton has been a nice surprise, but Lamar Miller has been a bit disappointing.

Sean Smith gave up a big TD last week. I am still waiting for him to jump to the next level. We're into the season and he hasn't done it yet.

Jones is getting better against the run. Still bad in coverage. And I would be hard pressed to find a team Clemons starts for.

The part that frustrates me about the last bolded part is, we HAD the corner. And we gave him away for a 2nd. Even if Vontae never reached his full potential, he was still very very good. Its not going to be easy to replace that kind of talent. Now Nolan Carroll is on the field more than he should be. What was a good unit became a thin and decent unit.

 

Well no, he hasn't. Pre-season really doesn't matter, and he did a pretty reasonable vs. the Texans.

I don't know how you can with one breath praise Vontae Davis and the next criticize Sean Smith.

This is based on the Texans game?

 

Actually season ticket sales plunged after Lil Nicky lied and bolted for Alabama, from 60k to 50k, then bumped up a bit in 08-09 then slid down to the low to mid 40's today.

Have to win ballgames, Tannehill probably won't win us many of them we need other players to step up in order to win them.

 

That number gets thrown around a lot. 40 mil. 60 mil. Its such a big number because it reflects our current lack of talent. We don't have too many guys were extending. As you and others alluded, its good for the future if a proper talent accessor is put in place.

You mentioned that we have had good drafts compared to the league? I don't see it. They have been abysmal, especially under Irish's known watch. Save for RT, show me one rookie who has stepped up and been a playmaker, been a force? Odrick, Misi, D.Thomas, not to mention the 3s, 4s, 5ths and beyond. Save for Pouncey, We got 1 guy in 2 years that is a championship caliber player.

Guys like Odrick and Misi, despite their high draft pedigree, aren't pillars of great defenses. Never gonna be T-Suggs or JJ Watts, not even in the same stratosphere. When you pass on Earl T, when you pick a guy in the first or high 2nd, they HAVE to be ballers. The only thing Ireland has proved decent at, is picking can't miss, highly touted, high position o-lineman.

 

Almost having Tannehill's career end is "reasonable" for Martin?

You can praise Vontae over Smith because he has been better throughout his career.

Agree on Jones. You can't attack his cover skills based on that game.

 

I don't see Sean Smith as a great corner, elite corner, blue chip, whatever. Would I be pissed if we traded him? You bet, because a plain old "good" corner is hard to find. And why I'm annoyed about Vontae. Those two would have never been the nest tandem in the league, but they were solid and way better than avg.

And based on the Texans game and prior.

 

What are you talking about?

He's been more consistent, but he's never hit the same upside either.

 

What am I talking about?

Whiffing on several blocks and one in particular where Watt almost committed a homicide on Tannehill.

 

What do you believe the organization's operating profit was last season???

 

It has to do with Ross and Ireland insofar as Ross and Ireland are held responsible for winning, which the team hasn't done enough of. However, that doesn't mean firing Ireland would yield any significant increase in ticket sales.

IMO winning, or the perception that winning is about to happen, would be the only things that would significantly increase ticket sales, and firing Ireland wouldn't do enough to cause either. I think you'd get far more yield from that from the vast majority of fans by adding talented players than by firing the GM.

 

If your correlating it with the coaches vision then getting those extra picks were because that's the new direction the coach wanted to go..

If your on board with Philbin then, his vision now has an extra 2 nd and 3rd to add to his type of players..

 

Forbes puts the operating income at 14.5 million - good enough for #26 in the NFL.

 

Funny how the team could be so inept and still turn such a profit.

 

Well fortunately for us we can do both.

 

Since I have no access to the Dolphins financial records, I would have no way of knowing the profits from last season. I am sure though, they made plenty of money, since each team receives millions of dollars each year from the television contracts.

 

You don't have to be a financial genius to turn a profit in the NFL. With all that TV money all you have to do is show up for work and you're making money.

 

Interesting how their rank in profit is about equal to their rank in overall performance. 7th from the bottom, and last season the W-L record tied for 8th from the bottom.

 

I agree 100% that the only thing that will increase fan support at the stadium is the team playing winning football. Unfortunately many fans just don't feel that Ross and Ireland are capable of providing a winning football team. That is the reason season ticket sales have continued to decrease over the past few years.

The problem is that many fans blame Ireland for the fact that the team hasn't added enough talented player since he became the GM in 2008. Of course adding very talented players would be better than firing a GM in an effort to increase attendance at the games. It just hasn't been shown that Ireland is capable of selecting these talented players in the draft or in free agency.

Dolphin fans certainly want the most talented player this team can draft or sign in free agency. A good percentage of these fans just don't think Ireland is the right man for the job any longer. Perhaps the Dolphins will show over the next 15 games that they are talented and that Ireland has done a good job of putting this team together. Great if that happens, but if the Dolphins once again finish below 500 this season, I see no way that Ross could stick with Ireland going into next season.