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The Henne-delphia Experiment

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by The_Dark_Knight, Aug 15, 2011.

Had Henne been drafted by a strong quarterback developing team, his level of play

Poll closed Aug 22, 2011.
  1. Would be better

    45 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. Would be about the same

    14 vote(s)
    23.3%
  3. Would be worse

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  1. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I keep reading all of these threads on Chad Henne, where he's belittled by critics, praised by supporters....arguments being thrown left and right as to why he should be our starting quarterback and other arguments why he should be thrown away like yesterday's diaper.

    So I pose the following question to put to rest the abilities of Chad Henne and hopefully we'll see with some objectivity where Chad Henne's talent truly lies...

    Had Chad Henne been drafted by a team known for their quarterbacks...New England, Philadelphia, San Diego, Green Bay...would Chad Henne's level of play be better, same or worse?

    I'm eager to see the answers and the reasons behind them.
     
  2. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    far better
     
  3. madforrit

    madforrit New Member

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    You're basically asking whether teams known for developing QBs develop QBs better than teams not known for developing QBs.

    Yes, Henne, or any QB, would be better with better coaching.

    I also think Henne would have done better with more time to sit and learn and less pressure (a la Aaron Rodgers behind Favre). Another season behind Pennington would have done him good I think.
     
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  4. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    There's a method to my madness with this thread and poll Mad...just let it develop please :up:
     
  5. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    easily better, something I've been saying for awhile.
     
  6. Oghma

    Oghma Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nature vs nurture?

    It's hard to argue against the proposition that Henne (or any quarterback) would be better with better coaching.

    On the flip side though - which teams are the better ones? As I'm writing this and thinking about the teams you listed, I'm almost changing my mind. Green Bay and San Diego developed 2 qbs recently, but spent high draft picks on top tier talent to do so. New England have Brady and that just seems like a once in a lifetime fluke. Meanwhile, are Philadelphia actually good at developing qbs? I've yet to see any evidence
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Fairness TDK, I'd say there are only 3 teams that are known for developing Qb's: Pats, Philly, GB, so I'm not sure who would fit your bill.
     
  8. Oghma

    Oghma Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But this is exactly what I was thinking about - why are these teams noted for developing QBs?

    Pats - Brady and then who? Isn't our current 4th string QB a former Pats draft choice?
    Philly - who have they developed? McNabb is really it. I'm 100% not sold on Kolb.
    GB - this is probably the strongest case of the three - they've done a great job with Rodgers.
     
  9. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    Cassel did well when he had to fill in and they got a very good return out of him.
    Hoyer usually does OK in the limited time I've seen him.
    Feeley - made him look so good that we gave up a 2nd for him.
    Kolb - made him look so good Arizona just mortgaged their future on him.
    Vick - made him look like a QB for the first time in his career instead of a glorified HB.
    Garcia - made him look like a good QB again, the first time in around 3 years.

    I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Vince Young ends up looking like a good QB and they end up getting a 1st back for him.
    You have plenty of Dolfans clammering for Flynn as well.
     
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  10. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    Philly - McNabb, A.J. Feeley, Kevin Kolb, MICHAEL VICK. Andy Reid also coached QB's in Green Bay (Favre, Brunnell, Hasselbeck).

    It doesn't matter so much how well they play after they're traded or elsewhere, but that they play well enough for Philly. And that's the beauty of it. Usually their absolute best years are with Reid.
     
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  11. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Add Detroit and maybe Texas as well.

    A "developed" Qb is one who was taken later in the draft and winds up starting and playing well, or a low level FA, or they were able to trade a Qb they developed:

    Philly-Feeley, Vick, Kolb
    GB-Rodgers
    Pats-Matt Cassell
    Detroit- Shaun Hill, Drew Stanton
    Texans-sneaky but they washed Rex Grossman, and Matt Leinart was semi sought after this offseason
     
  12. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Philli definitely for their team, they get the most out of them, it doesnt matter if other teams cant it also makes my point is we have been horrible since Shula left at developing qbs, under shula we made Mitchell look good.

    Pats developed a 6th rd qb into the best in the league, Cassel never started a game in college yet kept the competitive when Brady went down and now looks good in KC.

    GB says enough should be qb college in the NFL. Seriously Rodgers and Favre n 17 years, good avg.

    Thats just my point, if after 12 years and how many qbs, when does teh organ take blame for not developing a qb? Why didnt JJ draft a qb when he came in if he didnt think Marino had a lot left? Wanny? Saban? Cam? how much does this team emphasize qb? We need as a team to consider who we have what does he need, where is lacking and what can we do to help him overcome?

    Teams dev qbs (good dev teams) by understanding what they have and what that qb needs to succed and creating an environent to help that. They are also consistent with their message, their actions mimick their word.
     
  13. Oghma

    Oghma Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I suppose I was looking from the perspective of what "developed" QBs have done after they've moved on which is why I was dismissive of Philly. I guess though, what they do after they leave is of zero relevance to the team that develops them.

    And I flat out forgot about Cassel.
     
  14. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He would have been better. I've almost come to the conclusion that these guys are John Grude-esque, as in only capable of taking proven veteran QBs and filling them in to create winning seasons. I don't know if they are capable of developing a young QB.

    However, I don't believe he'd have been a Pro Bowler, but much more advanced than he is now.
     
  15. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No doubt he'd be better IMO. We've done a piss poor job of handling all of our QB's here recently. You can't argue that.
     
  16. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Take the number of teams that you feel like can develop a QB then divide that by 32. If that percentage is small then the majority of the NFL is in just as much trouble when it comes to developing QB as the Miami Dolphins.

    EDIT: I agree with PhiNomia below me. That is the reason why Henne would be better.
     
  17. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Well, he'd have had a running game and a quality system to mask some of his deficiencies. I don't know that he would've been BETTER - but he wouldn't be the sole focus of the offense like last year, so his faults would have been masked much better.

    So while I don't know that he'd necessarily be a way better QB, there would have been a perception of him being a way better QB.
     
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  18. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Chargers probably get a nod here. Rivers and Brees. Neither played lights out when they first came in.
     
  19. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I think he would be better.....or lets say....appear better.

    Would Chad Henne be a great Qb...if he were say...a system QB. One who thrived in a particular system...vs another. Great QB's like Brady and Manning...I believe could almost do well in any system short of a system that uses a running QB.

    I think those teams just do a better job of building an offense around a QB's strengths......just as I believe Daboll's system will fit Henne much better.
     
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  20. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I vote yes that Henne should be rendered invisible and teleported to another NFL city.

    Wait, is that not what we're talking about?
     
  21. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This is almost as impossible to answer as "would teams that develop QBs well have drafted Chad Henne?".
     
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  22. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Gailey of the Bills stands out as a quality QB coach, also, who gets the most from his QB play. The Shannahans are another QB friendly duo.

    So true, one has to wonder if a QB friendly team would have drafted Henne in the first place.
     
  23. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, he was falling until the 3rd round when we stepped in. He was what, the 57th pick?

    If we had passed who knows where he would've ended up.
     
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  24. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    huh...coaches can make a difference in developing a player? Who would of thunk it...

    I voted Henne would be about the same. I think getting to learn from Chad Pennington was like going to Philly, GB, NE.

    Now if the question was has the system Henne played in held him back I would have voted "YES!"
     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Better, but still not very good IMO.
     
  26. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO there are several keys to developing a QB. First of all is the evaluation. I don't think there are more than a handful of NFL people who know how to evaluate a QB. When you speak with scouts you hear as much inane b.s. as you'd hear on a typical message board. I think that a franchise QB has to have certain characteristics:

    Athleticism: I don't mean the ability to run around, but the ability to extend the play and throw with his hips under him. Brady, Marino and Montana were great at that. Rodgers does that but also runs. I could go on, but the point is that no great QB has lacked that ability.

    Toughness: This encompasses confidence, leadership as well as physical toughness.

    Ability to see the field: This is what many end up calling "it", that seemingly innate feel for where the opening will be. Some claim that this can't be taught. I disagree. Some guys have it naturally, but most anybody can be trained with enough experience.

    Accuracy: self-explanatory

    While there are minimum requirements for size and arm strength, etc., I see those four things as the holy grail of QB evaluation. Now if your guy doesn't have all of those things you can still win with him, but you need a better team around him. The key is a system that puts him in a position to succeed. I don't mean west coast vs. a Coryell offense. I believe you can win with many different systems. I mean using simple reads reads that let the QB choose between two receivers or just watch one defender. I mean route combinations and tags that get receivers in space. I mean putting talent around him that gives him easy throws. There's more, but I think those teams that develop QBs do that well. They basically put their QBs in better situations. They train their QBs how to see the field. Those teams also understand that offense is about expanding and exploiting the spaces in a defense so they put complementary talents in play that stretch the defense. The Jets did that for Sanchez with speed and possession WRs, a receiving TE and backs that could catch. You could also point to the Falcons with Ryan. Both the Jets and Falcons also protected their QBs with their use of the running game. I also think those teams do a great job of showing confidence in their QB. I think that percolates through the organization. I don't believe you ever tell a young QB not to throw an interception. You teach him how he should have read the play, but you never teach him to be scared of failure. I also think that once you have a developed veteran QB that you have the luxury of letting your young QB sit longer and that makes the developmental process much easier and more likely to succeed. I think the Dolphins failed miserably at giving Henne easy reads and of giving him complementary targets. They failed by abandoning the running game too often and they failed to show confidence in him. Now personally I have never believed that Henne was a franchise guy. I thought he lacked athleticism and accuracy. I have, however, been encouraged b/c his accuracy is better than I thought coming out and b/c he showed more athleticism in the game against Atlanta. I have believed, and continue to believe, that he is a guy you can win with. I think he could easily have as much team success as Ryan has had in Atlanta or Sanchez has had in NY. I think that if you shuffled any of those three players you end up with approximately the same team results. While I had both Sanchez and Ryan rated above Henne, I don't believe the difference is that big. By far the biggest difference is the situations they were in.
     
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  27. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    The further away you get from Dan Henning and David Lee the better chance you're development will be a success.
    These two would have ruined Marino. :wink2:
     
  28. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Thus far, 40 people have voted and 32 of you, or 80% feel his level of play would be better. So that in itself says you hold coaching, or the lack thereof accountable for Henne's lack of production on the field. I couldn't agree with that more. I've been screaming up and down until I was blue in the face that Dan Henning last year hung an anvil around Henne's neck and told him to go throw 40 times a game.

    But still, even with everyone voting as they have, there are still comments like the following posted in other threads about Henne...HENNE!! Not the coaching, not the teaching, not the play calling...but HENNE:
    All of those posts above about Henne and not a single one addresses the coaching that Henne's been mentored and groomed to be an NFL quarterback. To read all of these posts, you would think that we had the greatest quarterback coach in the history of the NFL and, well Chad Henne's just not stepping up and fulfilling his coach's expectations. Wel all know the difficulty college quarterbacks have in transitioning to the NFL and becoming starting QB's. Some possess the natural talent to do it ala Marino, Elway, Kelly, Manning but most rely on good coaching, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers.

    One of the moves I was hoping and praying we would make in the off season was to try and hire San Diego Chargers quarterbacks coach, John Ramsdell as our quarterbacks coach. Seeing the magnificent job he did with Phillip Rivers and Dree Brees, there's no doubt the man knows how to groom quarterbacks to fulfill their potential.

    Had we had a good proven quarterbacks coach and Henne still failed to live up to his potential, then there is no argument. He was given the best tools and every opportunity, but just didn't cut the mustard.

    80% of you agree that better coaching would make Henne a better player, so keep that in mind the next time you're ready to Pontius Pilate Henne and nail him to the cross. He and his performance is a reflection of his coaching.
     
  29. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    lol at the 1 person who said worse.
     
  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    well, one of them did wait till the 6th round for Brady, so considering they both came from Michigan and Henne was a 4 year starter, I'd say it's pretty possible.... if not probable.
     
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  31. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I feel he would've had a better chance to be a serviceable starter at this point in his career, maybe no ProBowl level, but not bottom level either.
    IMO he'd be in the position where people would be more optimistically acceptable of giving him another year to see what kind of development he continues making rather than the 1 foot out the door attitude we see now.

    I think it's still possible that you're still entertaining the idea of another QB, but just not to where it's a priority (maybe a little more of the "wait and see type mentality").
     
  32. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    The problem I have is---- when I compare him to Freeman, Flacco, Sanchez, or Ryan, people think I'm trying to portray Henne as some great QB.

    But that's just not the case b/c right now I don't see those guys as great QBs. I see them average to good QBs (who still make too many mistakes when the pressure's on them) on great teams that have done an outstanding job setting them up for success.
     
  33. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I disagree. I don't think people are believing you're trying to make Henne look like a great QB at all. I think, putting words in the mouth's of a lot of people here, they just flatly disagree that Henne is as as good as many or most of those QB's.

    Other than Mark Sanchez, I'd agree that Chad Henne isn't on the same playing level of those players either.
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    No disrespect but now you're the one putting words in the mouths of a lot of people here....... and I say this b/c you clearly haven't read all the responses to my past posts.

    The belief behind my post was based on thousands of posts I've made this year and the subsequent responses to those posts...... so I find it insulting & somewhat arrogant that you completely dismiss this post despite not reading all the previous posts & responses that led me to my conclusion.

    You may not "believing I was trying to make Henne look like a great QB at all", but please don't speak for other members who have already let their feelings known. If you actually read through every post responded to me (and kept track of the members who unprovokedly attacked or belittled my beliefs or threads), you might be a little more tolerant & understanding of some of the stuff I say.
     
  35. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I meant that I was putting word's in a lot of people's mouths by saying that. Not you.

    And I'm not being disrespectful or arrogant at all. I'm being speculative sure. And I think it's pretty fair to say that I was involved in many of those discussions also. I don't think you believe Henne is a great QB at all. And I'm putting myself on record as saying that many of the same guys who share my sentiments (not including those "drive by's" or those guys that just say things to rile you up or that clearly are intended to piss you off, but those that are consistently replying and engaging in debate) just believe that those QBs are better than Chad Henne.

    I'm never understanding or tolerant of people saying some of the things that both of us have said. I don't think there is a place for it at all, which is why I'm reallly trying to improve the quality of what I say because it's a lot more indicative of the type of person I am...rather than me calling someone an idiot. That's not me, but I've done a poor job of creating that.

    I think I did a pretty good job and made a pretty substantial attempt to clear the air and bury the hatchet between you an I here:

    http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?64184-The-Henne-argument...why-does-it-exist/page4

    Now, if you care to hold a grudge or continue to maintain some of the same hostility that's your prerogative, but I'm cool man. We're going to disagree on this subject and that's OK. But, I will not belittle you with name calling, and I will make every attempt to respond to your posts and keep them in context.
     
  36. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    You reference a post that I made in completely different thread ("The Henne argument...why does it exist?"). I was addressing a completely different question. Talk about taking comments out of context. Why would I reference Dan Henning in a thread about "Why the Henne argument exists"? The sentence you pulled fro my post was addressing a very specific point of the OP. Also I don't feel like I have to state in every post I create about Henne that Dan Henning was a part, I stress a part, of the problem with Henne's play.

    Not to mention the logic is absurdly sloppy. This was a setup from the start. Now I know not to engage with you on any topic.

    I can't believe this is your method of operation. Good luck and best wishes to you sir.
     
  37. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Actually, didn't Green Bay choose Brian Brohm one pick in front of Henne?
     
  38. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Yes, they did.
     
  39. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And took Matt Flynn in the 7th round of that same draft.

    That is an organization unafraid of the QB position. Sure, Brohm busted but they might get a 2nd round pick out of Flynn come next off season.
     
  40. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly why did you copy and paste a post of mine from a different thread that DIDN'T have any relevance to Henne and coaching at all?

    That post addressed the question "The Henne argument...WHY does it exist?

    Seems pretty LAME and MANIPULATIVE...If you are going to criticize one of my posts at least refer to one where I was responding DIRECTLY to the topic I am being criticized for...WEAK!!! :no::no::no:

    Any chance you are employed in the Patriots video department or a Jets assistant whose job is to interfere with the opposing team during returns?
     

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