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The debate is officially over ....

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by FinFaninBuffalo, Nov 27, 2023.

  1. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Ginn had a respectable career. Not spectacular but respectable. 193 games, 412 reception 5742 yards and 33 TD's. 14 year career in the NFL.
     
  2. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Not worth the spot he was taken at.
     
  3. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    14 year career says different. I never understood this mentality. When it comes to 1st round picks:
    • 16.7% didn’t play for the team that drafted them
    • 37% were considered useless. They either didn’t play much or didn’t make the team.
    • 15.3% were considered poor. Had limited playing time and didn’t do well in the time they had.
    • 10.5% were considered average. These are mediocre players that had starts or significant contributions over 2-3 years.
    • 12.3% were considered good. These could be mediocre or average players that were multi-year starters, Pat Elflein or Christian Ponder for example, or perhaps some genuinely good players that didn’t last all that long for the team that drafted them- Sidney Rice for example. This is where the AV metric can over-rate a player based on the number of starts, rather than their performance while on the field.
    • 6.9% were considered Great. This category is the first that includes undeniably good draft picks. In order to be considered great, they would’ve had to play for the team that drafted them into a second contract, and also performed well over those years.
    • 1% were considered legendary. These are future Hall of Famers, multi-year All-Pros among the best in the league for most of their relatively long careers.
    And so only about 8% of draft picks are players that really make much of a difference beyond replacement value, and only about 30% see much playing time or make a significant contribution to the team.
     
  4. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    care to explain what the heck a "single season/game" means? 6 is a collection of things.... Looks like you are trying much too hard to be contrarian without any real point.
     
  5. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Herbert has a very good supporting cast. Far far better than Tua had in his first two years. Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
     
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  6. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    The Dolphins were NOT a better team in 2020 or 2021. During that time Tua's winning % was 62% and Herbert's was 47%
     
  7. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Still true.

    Nobody is saying this. In fact, the point was that Tua could be great with a better supporting cast and coaching staff. Well.... that turned out to be true.

    The shift wasn't from the Tua supporters, it was from the Herbert supporters (side note, it is ridiculous to have vocal supporters of another team's quarterback on this site). They claimed that the supporting cast WASN'T the issue during 2020 and 2021. They claimed Tua supporters were making EXCUSES (you even used that word again). Now that Tua is out playing Herbert, suddenly it IS the supporting cast that is the main issue. The claim is now that Tua is carried and Herbert is held back...... Very interesting shift indeed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2023
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  8. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Herbert owns you.
     
  9. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    how does that compare with the other rounds of picks?
     
  10. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    what is the validity of your comment? The poster constantly goes on and on about Herbert. No one else is really saying much about him. Why continuously bring him up ? Seems like the poster is trying to convince himself that Tua is better.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2023
  11. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    so you are now admitting that the cast around him made him great and he is not great without it?

    side note, you are the on that keeps bringing up other QB's
     
  12. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    For me, this debate has been over since last season.
     
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  13. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Not what I said at all ....

    If you don't want to compare Tua to Herbert (something anti-Tua people were desperate to do for 2 years), maybe stay out of the thread created for that purpose?
     
  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    He doesn't need to try.

    If I want a pretty thrown ball that looks great on a highlight, I will take Herbert. If I want a qb to run an offense, I will take Tua.
     
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  15. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    ??? It shows right on list of threads who created it.....
     
  16. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    All of his replies in this thread have been "interesting". Seems like he is trying to hard to be contrarian.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2023
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  17. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    You should thank me. If not for my responses this thread would have died a long time ago. My apologies for responding and wasting everyones time.
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Must be tiring to be him
     
  19. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Apology accepted. Waste it just a bit more by actually answering the original question with a simple yes or no answer. Did Miami draft the right guy? IMO, yes. Your opinion?
     
  20. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    DFD and FFB knock it off.
     
  21. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    ?? not sure what you are referring to. I have been completely civil.
     
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  22. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The main thing Tua has over Herbert is that he's an integral component of one of the best offenses in the league. Herbert is now in year 4 of being the same solidly above average, but not elite QB from a production standpoint. It doesn't seem like you could put a team around Herbert (realistically with salary cap etc.) that would perform as well as you can with Tua.

    It's really a Philip Rivers situation all over again. Chargers will be lucky to ever sniff the SB with Herbert. At least with Tua we have a decent chance. Yeah, the debate is (mostly) over, pending future seasons of course.
     
  23. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Herbert is Tannehill 2.0
    Statue in the pocket. Slow reads. Checkdown king.

    With that being said, the debate is far from over or settled. Herbert is FAR better than Tannehill was early on and has tremendous upside. I wouldn't bet against him. If he plays for 15 years his career is really just getting started. On the flip side, the light turned on for Tanny in 2016 before the knee injury so maybe Herbert's ceiling has already been reached.
     
  24. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Guys like Herbert and Allen aren't going to get any better. What you see is what you get with them. They have peaked. They aren't suddenly going to learn how to read a defense and throw the ball with touch.

    You can't rely on physical traits forever. Ask Cam Newton.
     
  25. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I've been trying to decide on a comp for Herbert. Maybe Jeff George? Herbert's not nearly as arrogant as George was, but (besides maybe Baker Mayfield) who is? George never got a coach who could take advantage of his bazooka and it remains to be seen if Herbert ever will.
     
  26. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Peak Jeff George
     
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  27. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Definitely not Jeff George. IMO, he was a gun slinger that never took the game seriously enough. Herbert is a big QB with a cannon arm that checks the ball down at a very high rate. IMO he is terribly underwhelming given his physical attributes.
     
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  28. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    Keenan Allen is 1st in receptions, 2nd in yards, 3rd in yards per game (behind Tyreek and Jefferson) and 5th in TD's yet people seem to think Herbert suddenly doesn't have any weapons anymore.
     
  29. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the debate isn't over:

     
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  30. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention Ekeler's 43 touchdowns the last 2.5 years.
     
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  31. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    JuStIn HeRbErT dOeSn'T hAvE hElP!!

    [​IMG]
     
  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah, any claims about Herbert not having a good surrounding cast are revisionist history. Prior to this season, a bunch of outlets were projecting Herbert would finally break out with the extra investment into his surrounding cast + new OC Moore. And yet Herbert puts up the same efficiency stats as in years 1-3. He's simply not an elite QB. Good, but no way elite. Except for the uncertainty of future years, we definitely made the right decision with Tua.
     
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  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    This is my first year playing fantasy football and I quickly learned that Ekeler is one of the most valuable players in the league in terms of fantasy points. Pure stud that does a little bit of everything.
     
  34. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Chargers fans treat him and Keenan Allen like dirt on X. It's crazy how much they blame them and not Herbert.
     
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  35. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    This is such an incredibly ignorant thread. One of the worst I've seen in awhile.
     
  36. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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  37. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Naw. I've seen much worse much more recently.
     
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  38. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    A little Schadenfreude never hurts. Herbert with a no TD, 75 rating against NE (who are now 2-10.. **** that Belichick!) lol.
     
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  39. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Ekeler had 14 carries for 18 yards...that's shocking. NE must have played a great defensive game.
     

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