The debate is officially over ....

"Rick 1966 wrote:

The Dolphins have at least won a couple SBs and the Chargers have at least been to one. The Browns and Lions are the teams who are really cursed.

The Atlanta Falcons have entered the chat:

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

The Atlanta Falcons have entered the chat:

They've been to two SBs. Yeah, they lost that heartbreaker but at least they've been to one recently.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

They've been to two SBs. Yeah, they lost that heartbreaker but at least they've been to one recently.

They're the only other team that I follow. They lost one Super Bowl after being up 28-3 and lost the other after their NFL Man Of The Year winner was busted for picking up a hooker just a few days before the game.

BTW: My late Pops was a Browns fan and man, that fan base is loyal. Every year, it's the same. If they expect big things, they underplay and wind up with a mediocre team. If they think they'll suck, they'll overplay and have a mediocre team. Dolfans have no clue what other fanbases have endured. With that being said, we deserve better than we've seen on the field for the past 20 years.

Of course, we've got way more to appreciate than most teams in the league so we're not cursed at all. But man, it feels so good to have hope again.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

They're the only other team that I follow. They lost one Super Bowl after being up 28-3 and lost the other after their NFL Man Of The Year winner was busted for picking up a hooker just a few days before the game.

BTW: My late Pops was a Browns fan and man, that fan base is loyal. Every year, it's the same. If they expect big things, they underplay and wind up with a mediocre team. If they think they'll suck, they'll overplay and have a mediocre team. Dolfans have no clue what other fanbases have endured. With that being said, we deserve better than we've seen on the field for the past 20 years.

Of course, we've got way more to appreciate than most teams in the league so we're not cursed at all. But man, it feels so good to have hope again.

I used to root for the Browns just because they were lovable losers and you had to hope they'd do well. Then they did the whole Deshaun Watson thing and I can't root for them anymore until he's gone. Which may be 3 years or more.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

I used to root for the Browns just because they were lovable losers and you had to hope they'd do well. Then they did the whole Deshaun Watson thing and I can't root for them anymore until he's gone. Which may be 3 years or more.

I was about to swear off of the Dolphins had we acquired Watson. Then, Atlanta tried to get him and I was ready to swear off of them. Then, my Dad's team went so deep to get him, they gave a credibly accused sexual predator the largest guarantee in league history. I now am the only one in my family who roots against Cleveland.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

I used to root for the Browns just because they were lovable losers and you had to hope they'd do well. Then they did the whole Deshaun Watson thing and I can't root for them anymore until he's gone. Which may be 3 years or more.

I used to feel the same way about the Browns, but I’d add in that I always wanted them to get revenge on the Steelers, because they owned the Browns and the fanbase never let them forget it. The Steelers have one of the most obnoxious fanbases in all of sports, and I love when they get beat and cry about it.

Of course, by signing Watson, they no longer get any sympathy.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

I used to root for the Browns just because they were lovable losers and you had to hope they'd do well. Then they did the whole Deshaun Watson thing and I can't root for them anymore until he's gone. Which may be 3 years or more.

Honestly, I hated Cleveland ever since Mel Kiper ranted about how Miami was stupid for taking Ted Ginn Jr. over Brady Quinn. That hate seeped over to every Cleveland sports team and Notre Dame.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

#1: Justin Herbert played with Austin Ekeler, Keenan Allen and Mike Williams for his entire career. For their first two seasons, nobody thought Tua's surrounding talent held a candle to Herbert's. In fact, we stripped down the roster in a total rebuild prior to Tua's arrival. If the talent caught up in the past two seasons, each had two years to do it with a superior roster.
#2: Herbert is 29-31 over his career; Tua is 29-16. Tua's 5 comebacks are because he's seldom losing late in games and doesn't need to come back.
#3: Were you one of the ones agreeing that Tua needed talent and better coaching to succeed or were you suggesting that he didn't have the traits of a successful QB? If you thought those were excuses for Tua in years 1 & 2, then you're shameless for trying to make them explanations for Herbert's lack of success now.
#4: It's cool that you would pick Herbert. We're here to discuss things and if we all agreed with each other, the place would be rather boring, wouldn't it?

That is what gets me about this site. Excuse was Tua needed talent and better situation around him. Now he has those and suddenly Tua is the one that is great and those other things have nothing to do with it. Then the same people bash on Herbert for not having the same things they claimed Tua needed. Very interesting how peoples views shift to fit their views.

"FinFaninBuffalo wrote:

He is 1 for 6 this season......

Wait, weren't we told a single season\game didn't matter and what did matter was the entire collection of things? Guess, it depends on what is needed to make a point seem valid.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Good question. McDaniel's offense with Tua works because of Tua's quick release. Very few QBs could operate the current scheme as well as Tua is. With that being said, I'm sure Coach could scheme better for Herbert's strengths than Kellen Moore is (and Joe Lombardi did) and with some roster retrofitting, could have a similarly successful offense.

It all points to the fact that physical attributes are nothing if the player's not in position to utilize them. I feel bad about enjoying Herbert's problems because I don't dislike him nearly as much as I dislike all of the Monday morning draft experts who literally laughed at us for taking the guy we took at #5.

I think the bigger key is accuracy. I recall the Tannehill years and i would claim he was very inaccurate and was told it was not him, it was the receivers catch radius was small (LOL) Tannehill could never run this offense.

"Vinny Fins wrote:

We are really gonna pretend Herbert didnt have drastically better weapons than Tua for first 2 years. Ok.
Heres a stat:

herbert winning pct: .483
Tua: .660

thanks for coming. Give me the guy whose talent is WINNING GAMES.
Tua has less comebacks because WE BLOW PEOPLE OUT. Herbert leads the universe in one score loses.

So, you are saying the Dolphins are a better football TEAM then the Chargers? Would you agree bad teams tend to win less then good teams?

Not sure if you are old enough to remember all the Dolphins that died during off seasons. There for a while it was spooky.

"dolphin25 wrote:

That is what gets me about this site. Excuse was Tua needed talent and better situation around him. Now he has those and suddenly Tua is the one that is great and those other things have nothing to do with it. Then the same people bash on Herbert for not having the same things they claimed Tua needed. Very interesting how peoples views shift to fit their views.

Most fans aren't so stupid that they won't admit (in an honest conversation) that a QB has to be in an optimal situation to display optimal performance. But we get so tied into our narratives and previous statements that we'll go down swinging when it turns out we were wrong. Both QBs are good enough to win big but they both need the right roster and coaches to make it work.

Fact is, everybody can't do what Tua does well and everybody can't do what Herbert does well. You can't make one look better by putting down the other one and you cannot pretend that they don't both have shortcomings. Moving the goalposts is silly, but it's how fans comport themselves in an anonymous forum where nobody has to admit that they're wrong.

"dolphin25 wrote:

I think the bigger key is accuracy. I recall the Tannehill years and i would claim he was very inaccurate and was told it was not him, it was the receivers catch radius was small (LOL) Tannehill could never run this offense.

Coaches are an arrogant lot. Most of them try to pound square pegs into round holes instead of scheming to the strengths of their players. McDaniel saw an opportunity with Tua and ran with it. Most offensive coaches would use Tua the way Godsey and Studesville did and have him throw quick short passes to get the ball out of his hand before pressure arrives. McDaniel uses motion to get receivers in space further downfield and effectively took Tua from being a QB who averaged <6 YPA to one who gets >8 with some of the highest air yards in the league.

It almost sounds counterintuitive that you can have a downfield game and a short time in the pocket, but here we happily are.

"Silverphin wrote:

Honestly, I hated Cleveland ever since Mel Kiper ranted about how Miami was stupid for taking Ted Ginn Jr. over Brady Quinn. That hate seeped over to every Cleveland sports team and Notre Dame.

Honestly, I thought that same thing at the time. As it turned out, I was dead wrong about Brady Quinn. Not about Ted Ginn.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

Honestly, I thought that same thing at the time. As it turned out, I was dead wrong about Brady Quinn. Not about Ted Ginn.

Ginn had a respectable career. Not spectacular but respectable. 193 games, 412 reception 5742 yards and 33 TD's. 14 year career in the NFL.

"Finatik wrote:

Ginn had a respectable career. Not spectacular but respectable. 193 games, 412 reception 5742 yards and 33 TD's. 14 year career in the NFL.

Not worth the spot he was taken at.

"Rick 1966 wrote:

Not worth the spot he was taken at.

14 year career says different. I never understood this mentality. When it comes to 1st round picks:

• 16.7% didn’t play for the team that drafted them

• 37% were considered useless. They either didn’t play much or didn’t make the team.

• 15.3% were considered poor. Had limited playing time and didn’t do well in the time they had.

• 10.5% were considered average. These are mediocre players that had starts or significant contributions over 2-3 years.

• 12.3% were considered good. These could be mediocre or average players that were multi-year starters, Pat Elflein or Christian Ponder for example, or perhaps some genuinely good players that didn’t last all that long for the team that drafted them- Sidney Rice for example. This is where the AV metric can over-rate a player based on the number of starts, rather than their performance while on the field.

• 6.9% were considered Great. This category is the first that includes undeniably good draft picks. In order to be considered great, they would’ve had to play for the team that drafted them into a second contract, and also performed well over those years.

• 1% were considered legendary. These are future Hall of Famers, multi-year All-Pros among the best in the league for most of their relatively long careers.

And so only about 8% of draft picks are players that really make much of a difference beyond replacement value, and only about 30% see much playing time or make a significant contribution to the team.

"dolphin25 wrote:

Wait, weren't we told a single season\game didn't matter and what did matter was the entire collection of things? Guess, it depends on what is needed to make a point seem valid.

care to explain what the heck a "single season/game" means? 6 is a collection of things.... Looks like you are trying much too hard to be contrarian without any real point.

"dolphin25 wrote:

That is what gets me about this site. Excuse was Tua needed talent and better situation around him. Now he has those and suddenly Tua is the one that is great and those other things have nothing to do with it. Then the same people bash on Herbert for not having the same things they claimed Tua needed. Very interesting how peoples views shift to fit their views.

Herbert has a very good supporting cast. Far far better than Tua had in his first two years. Not really sure what point you are trying to make.

"dolphin25 wrote:

So, you are saying the Dolphins are a better football TEAM then the Chargers? Would you agree bad teams tend to win less then good teams?

The Dolphins were NOT a better team in 2020 or 2021. During that time Tua's winning % was 62% and Herbert's was 47%

"dolphin25 wrote:

That is what gets me about this site. Excuse was Tua needed talent and better situation around him.

Still true.

"dolphin25 wrote:

Now he has those and suddenly Tua is the one that is great and those other things have nothing to do with it.

Nobody is saying this. In fact, the point was that Tua could be great with a better supporting cast and coaching staff. Well.... that turned out to be true.

"dolphin25 wrote:

Then the same people bash on Herbert for not having the same things they claimed Tua needed. Very interesting how peoples views shift to fit their views.

The shift wasn't from the Tua supporters, it was from the Herbert supporters (side note, it is ridiculous to have vocal supporters of another team's quarterback on this site). They claimed that the supporting cast WASN'T the issue during 2020 and 2021. They claimed Tua supporters were making EXCUSES (you even used that word again). Now that Tua is out playing Herbert, suddenly it IS the supporting cast that is the main issue. The claim is now that Tua is carried and Herbert is held back...... Very interesting shift indeed.

"FinFaninBuffalo wrote:

Herbert has a very good supporting cast. Far far better than Tua had in his first two years. Not really sure what point you are trying to make.

Herbert owns you.

"Finatik wrote:

14 year career says different. I never understood this mentality. When it comes to 1st round picks:

• 16.7% didn’t play for the team that drafted them

• 37% were considered useless. They either didn’t play much or didn’t make the team.

• 15.3% were considered poor. Had limited playing time and didn’t do well in the time they had.

• 10.5% were considered average. These are mediocre players that had starts or significant contributions over 2-3 years.

• 12.3% were considered good. These could be mediocre or average players that were multi-year starters, Pat Elflein or Christian Ponder for example, or perhaps some genuinely good players that didn’t last all that long for the team that drafted them- Sidney Rice for example. This is where the AV metric can over-rate a player based on the number of starts, rather than their performance while on the field.

• 6.9% were considered Great. This category is the first that includes undeniably good draft picks. In order to be considered great, they would’ve had to play for the team that drafted them into a second contract, and also performed well over those years.

• 1% were considered legendary. These are future Hall of Famers, multi-year All-Pros among the best in the league for most of their relatively long careers.

And so only about 8% of draft picks are players that really make much of a difference beyond replacement value, and only about 30% see much playing time or make a significant contribution to the team.

how does that compare with the other rounds of picks?

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

EDITED

what is the validity of your comment? The poster constantly goes on and on about Herbert. No one else is really saying much about him. Why continuously bring him up ? Seems like the poster is trying to convince himself that Tua is better.