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The best article to date on this mess. Impartial...and well worth consideration.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by vt_dolfan, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    This article really makes you step back and think.

    I think Jason La Canfora has written something really good here.

    "The more I think about the way the Miami Dolphins locker room reacted to the Jonathan Martin/Richie Incognito situation, the less surprising it seems. On the surface one might think their sweeping approval of Incognito, the accused, and relative disdain for Martin, the accuser, is counterintuitive, but I believe it's actually just the opposite.

    Despite the varying accounts of these men, their complicated relationship and how seemingly at odds they are -- with Martin's claims of abuse or possible bullying opposite what his teammates say was the case -- perhaps there is an underlying truth that manages to account for that dichotomy. This topic is shaded deeply in gray, with very little in black and white, and facts, as they were, in short supply. Yet somehow, in the paradigm of an NFL locker room, could the perceptions of both Martin and the men he works with be grounded in versions of the truth all actually believe?


    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...nder-scrutiny-in-wake-of-martinincognito-flap
     
    gafinfan, 305, PhinGeneral and 7 others like this.
  2. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    The locker room is fine. The actions of 2 players are the ones open for opinion, judgement and punishment beit legal routes, NFL investigations and morals. Im just feeling bad for the team. They are the victims right now that i care about. Watched a Cam Wake interview 20mins ago on Phinsiders. I knew what was coming straight off the bat. Not the sack to win the game, not the 3 sacks, not the forced fumble, not the recovery. It was the question about this crap we've all witnessed in the last week. Its a shame and sad.
     
    the 23rd and vt_dolfan like this.
  3. Tar Phin

    Tar Phin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Canfora's article pretty much captures my thoughts on the situation. Nice find.
     
    vt_dolfan likes this.
  4. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I feel bad for the rest of the team, and I feel bad for us fans.

    We devote alot of our time and effort into this team...and we should be focusing on Tampa and trying to make a run at the playoffs like everyone else. Instead....we have this **** to look forward to for the forseasble future.
     
  5. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Good article.

    In an previous career I investigated workplace harassment claims. From my experience I would add the following:
    1) In genuine cases the perpetrator tends to only do the vicious stuff away from people who could disapprove, either with others who act the same way or behind closed doors. So it is common for other co-workers to be unaware of the true extent of the harassment. Quite often there is light hearted stuff done openly so when there is a reaction other co-workers feel that the victim is over-reacting but they are unaware of the true extent of the harassment.
    2) Human instinct is to protect the herd from outsiders. The initial reaction of the work group is to rally behind the accused perpetrator. Maybe also it is easier to believe that the alleged victim is being a big sook rather than to accept that you stood by and did nothing when you should have stepped in.
    3) Genuine victims only collect and retain evidence after it has been ongoing for a while, the first series of episodes is almost always dismissed. People with an enhanced sense of entitlement trying to claim to be a victim don't have evidence to back up their claims.
    4) In workplaces where the initial complaints are not responded to seriously the trend is for the victim to feel isolated and try to cope on their own until there is a catastrophic failure. Management only become aware of the true facts after the catastrophic failire, and their most common reaction is to cover their pimply white behinds.

    Things I would expect to see if Martin was being histrionic
    1) Many loudly repeated complaints almost all of which have no evidence of occurring.
    2) An enhanced sense of entitlement. An expectation for example that the OL coach change the entire methods because he knows better than everybody else how the Oline of an NFL tream works.
    3) A lack of effort to try to fit into the group.
    4) Evidence that they present as 'proof' of harassment does not objectively show bad faith or bad behaviour


    So far on what has come out fits the pattern of genuine cases better than cases of precious petals expecting the world to conform to them.
     
  6. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    I don't remember reading or hearing of Martin asking Incognito to stop what he was doing? Does anyone remember reading or hearing of it?
     
  7. Jagfish

    Jagfish Season Ticket Holder

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    LaCanfora isn't great, but that is a really well written and thought out breakdown.
     
  8. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    he and his lawyer have not claimed that. and they would have if it happened cause it would have strengthened their claim
     
  9. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    No, I dont . And, apparently neither do his team mates. This is why I have a hard time siding with Martin wholeheartedly because it appears he never once said " enough is enough". Incognito, as obnoxious as he may be, probably would never purposely hurt Martin to a point where it would cause a nervous breakdown. Also, I feel the fact that Martin sent Incognito a text saying its not the teams fault speaks volumes on this whole subject.This whole situation blew up when Martin decided to let his Mother hear the voice mail and if it was so bothersome to him why didnt he come forward with it months ago.?
     
  10. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I think it is safe to assume Martin's lawyers are very good, what with both of his parents being Harvard Law grads. They will release their evidence when it is right for their case to do so, not when it suits the media searching for a story.
     
  11. Sippi

    Sippi Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Excellent article. Actually I think it's the best written piece on this whole fiasco that I've read.
     
  12. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    That text tells me that when Martin left he intended to come back fairly quickly and that he did not want to make waves because he knew that if he started pointing fingers that his situation would become worse. He had already complained to Philbin and Incognito had still continued with stuff that Martin felt was inappropriate.

    As for Incognito not wanting to cause a nervous breakdown, the type of person who does this type of thing lacks sufficient empathy to understand what they are doing is wrong - otherwise they wouldn't be doing it in the first place. So if Incognito is someone who will harass Martin, he will keep on doing so until Martin breaks or he his forcible prevented from doing so.
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    That part didn't happen
     
  14. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    This is one game where everyone loses. Including the NFL.

    ANd my take is that it's Martin's Mother's character and influence that is driving this... Everything hit the fan when Mom found out.

    Every time I say that, I feel like we're discussing a child.
     
  15. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    How did you reach that conclusion? And,what you say Martin did NOT want to do is exactly what he DID do. I`m confused as to your reasoning, not debating it, just confused.
     
  16. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I reached that conclusion because it is what I saw time and time again when people suffering actual workplace harassment decompensated. It is very unusual in genuine cases for the victim not to make a statement like this.

    The mental process is to think that they just need a break for a few days and that if they complain things will be much worse when they get back. So they want to keep things patched up and nice and not to burn any bridges behind them.
    It's only when they need more than just a day or two away from the situation to resolve the problem that the full story starts coming out.
     
  17. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    That's just one of many of the things that leaves you asking WTF? Hiding behind his mother and having her fight his battle, real or imagined, while he reportedly is receiving emotional therapy for someone make crude jokes and teasing him. It all feels so Elementary or Jr High...
     
  18. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The evidence as I understand it is that Martin had taken his problems to Philbin in training camp. There is also evidence that the coaching staff gave Incognito the green light to harass Martin i.e. asking Incognito to toughen up Martin, which based on the tweets we have seen looks as though it was taken as licence to harass Martin.

    The evidence that it continued after the complaint was made to Philbin is that Martin left camp over the table incident. People are resilient and they don't snap and fail unless they are under placed under continued stress. If Martin was under stress over coaching who would have broken over a coaching incident, if he had come apart over relationship issues we would be talking about Martin the wife beater. The fact that it was an incident designed to humiliate Martin orchestrated by Incognito strongly implies that these sorts of incidents have been ongoing throughout the season.
     
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  19. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The guy acting like junior high is Incognito
     
  20. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Martin went to Philbin with his personal problems, which according to reports, had to do with his individual desire to continue playing the game. Philbin's statements were that he was never alerted to Martin's issues with being bullied around the locker room, the stance his legal team is taking now.
     
  21. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Pauly, with all due respect, you're missing some of the finer details and context that led up to where we are now.
     
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  22. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Interesting that he didn't "snap" until after he lost his starting LT position and was told to move back to RT or be benched. A move he didn't want to make as he complained about having to play RT last season.

    You're jumping to conclusions on anything being "designed to humiliate" Martin. There is no evidence of that. By all accounts he was treated as all others were. Same crude language, jokes, and treatment. The difference is in the way Martin handled things.
     
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  23. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    They both are to varying degrees. Cogs is an immature, testosterone driven a****** and a total d***. He is like the "Steven Stiffler" character. But he is like this to everyone. He lacks a strong moral compass, but he also fights his own battles and can be contrite.

    Sadly, he is almost a classic case of Aristole's tragic character - a man who is neither good and just, but whose misfortune is brought about by committing an injury or a great wrong leading to his misfortune...
     
  24. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Not everyone can handle that kind of thing. The problem is that Incognito seems to have no ability to recognize that not everyone is some meatheaded jock. Just because he wasn't treated differently doesn't make the behavior acceptable.
     
  25. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    I agree with all of that and I am not defending Cogs words or actions. I was saying there is no evidence that any one was sitting around designing actions and statements to go out of their way to specifically humiliate Martin.
     
  26. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Having everyone get up and leave the table when person X arrives is an action designed to humiliate someone. Whether it is an in joke played against a random person, a joke played because someone is ill, or part of a systemic campaign of harassment is the question. All three versions have been given and it remains to be seen what is the true version.
     
  27. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I think the tweets and voice mails that have been published so far pass that threshold. The half N---r comment might be able to passed off as jocular if you go out of your way to believe it is ambiguous, but the sister comment is something that could only be made with malice aforethought.
     
  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    A couple of things....

    1. Martin did not discuss Cogs with Philbin. He discussed his own issues and commitment to football., but he never brought up problems he had with Cogs.
    2. Martin snapped because he had just been demoted then benched.
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    None of that is true.

    I and my friends joke like that all the time. My wife and I even joke like that. It may not suit your sense of humor, but that does not damn something to be malicious if it wasn't.
     
  30. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    That prank was not designed specifically for Martin. That prank has been pulled in hundreds of cafeterias for decades. The players themselves said that they, including Martin, pulled that prank randomly on various other people, usually whoever was last to a table.
     
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  31. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    If you really believe any of that, you've had a sheltered life. I have heard much worst from friends joking about each other's Moms or sisters while sitting around having drinks and laughs.
     
  32. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Maybe.

    I'm just looking at things if this crossed my desk back when I investigated these things. I'm trying to analyse this as a workplace situation, not an NFL situation.
    The general pattern I see is that Martin is doing the things I would expect someone who has genuinely been harassed to breaking point to be doing. The general pattern of things coming from the Dolphins is that what I saw from workplaces that were clueless as to what they were doing was wrong.

    Of course the devil is in the detail, and facts may come out that may change how things may be seen. What I am saying is that if I were the Dolphin's insurer right now I would be very nervous and I would be looking for anything to exculpate me.
     
  33. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    obviously not... you can fool some of the people some of the time, etc.
    this is a premeditated event or a simple case of Martin finding the wrong way out of something he didn't want to be a part of from the beginning.very unfortunate for our team. I believe Jon Jon will go down in infamy in Dolphin history, whatever his excuse.
     
  34. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    You are missing the point that this wasn't said while standing around joking, that it was a voicemail left for someone. Also if you said something like that about to me about my sister in my kitchen you'd have a 10" Sabatier at your throat no matter how funny you thought it was.
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Your sense of humor is not the gauge of what was intended to be funny or not. Voicemails can be funny, btw.
     
  36. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    But you do not know the intent and you're reading things into this. Also, you seem to be a day behind. What the media did with the voicemails and texts is pull statements out of context and leave out the laughter and "lols"... Ritchie was laughing and making random statements. He also asked Martin to call him back, which Martin did. Martin also shared all of these in the locker room and laughed with everyone about them. If he had a problem with the VMs and texts, he should have taken them to his coaches 7 months ago when the VM was made.

    The media is manipulating this entire situation to date. You take yourself a bit too serious. That threat could also get you in trouble in your workplace...
     
    Fin D likes this.
  37. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Well excuse me for sticking my d*** in your sister's a**, but she wasn't as good as your dog.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Hahahahahahaha. I'm ok with that sense of humor. i thanked your post and everything.

    6 months from now, however, I'll go to the mods and tell them I'm not ok with that sense of humor and you offended me and I hope they ban you.

    Seem fair?
     
  39. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    You CANNOT compare a "real life job" where you have seen this kind of stuff with the actions that go on in a NFL locker room. You cannot compare the mental anguish suffered at the local furniture factory to the mental and physical stress this game puts on a person at this level. In what other line of work is your task to brutally dominate the man in front of you?

    The other thing you cannot do is attempt to say that the working conditions in the NFL should be no different than the working conditions at the local furniture factory. The one thing the NFL does not need to do is become tolerant to players who cannot mentally handle this league.
     
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  40. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    That sums it up and I believe time will tell that this analogy is exactly what happened except a more perfect analogy would have been to add ""if my mom sees this, she will get the mods to ban you"

     
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