The Anti-Jeff Ireland Thread

If Pretty soon = 5 years, then yeah that's a pretty attractive job we got here

 

Right, its a selling point with accompanying pressure. You're essentially removing any type of built in excuse from whomever takes the job. They are taking over a team that is basically a clean slate.

 

I'll let you in on a little secret: I wasn't talking to you at all. It was only when you decided to deliberately misconstruct my statment that I took the time and effort to explain to you what it actually said. And lo and behold, then you go ahead and misconstruct my explanation

 

Number 1, it's a JOB period. Don't think there's many people on this planet currently turning down jobs. Number 2, a stockpile of draft picks and cap space is at the top of the list of how to lure GMs, especially the good ones.

 

You're saying that the new GM can keep his job without winning for 5 years?

 

I think you pretty much made my point. Whomever would potentially take the job would be someone willing to take any job.

 

What potential GM thinks like this? You think they would PREFER they walk into a situation where they have no ability to affect any change, so that they have an excuse for when they fail? Really? Come on, man. You can't be serious about that. Are you empathizing on this at all? Put yourself in their shoes. You WANT the situation where you can make your mark on the roster because you have confidence in your ability to do that. If you didn't, you wouldn't be in the position you're in to take over as a team's General Manager. On the contrary, your WORST fear is that you walk into a situation where everything is so complicated and screwy that you're handcuffed and can't change anything, and then you get blamed for poor performance anyway. This isn't complicated stuff, man.

 

Fine. So then you don't believe we have little talent on the team and that coaching got us to 7 wins?

 

GMs can create situations where they can create change. The more obvious it is to the public, the more pressure there is. We already have people saying this offseason will be the biggest offseason in franchise history. What type of expectations are born from that?

Just look how often the "he took over a 1-15 team" argument is used regarding this team.

 

By year's end Ireland will be on year 4 without winning, and many are arguing that he should be kept. At least that seems like what they're arguing for.

And this selling point doesn't exist anywhere in sports with any job, so it's unrealistic to put it up against the other sales pitch.

 

smh...

 

We had people saying this when Saban took over, we had people saying this when Cameron/Mueller took over, we had people saying this when Parcells/Ireland took over - and we'll have people saying this long after the next GM took over, too. It's what people in a playoff starved city do.

 

No, not really.

There's no one on the 2007 roster approaching the talent levels of guys like Jake Long, Cameron Wake, Karlos Dansby, Paul Soliai, Randy Starks, etc. and so on.

This is the Aug 6th official depth chart:

Basically if you take Ronnie Brown's contributions only for part of that season and ignore that Reggie Bush last year was more productive than anything Brown ever did, there's an argument he's better. Defensively, you've got what? Zach Thomas maybe?

 

Wow. So you really think GMs think like that. You think they'd prefer situations where they have a tougher road ahead before they can make their mark on the team. God bless you sir, but I think you've jumped three tracks.

 

No. I don't believe they prefer jobs with a tougher road. I believe they want jobs with low expectations. Its a lot harder to exceed expectations when they are very low.

 

Outside of Paul Soliai, you mean, I guess?

 

And Saban/Parcells left at the first opportunity.

 

Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert dislike this post

 

Also, I think its really hard to believe that Jeff Ireland would be making trades for future draft picks without some type of indication he would be around to actually benefit from those moves.

 

Yes. Because they realized that they couldn't deliver. They had no problem taking the gig; they had a problem with failing at the gig.

 

Did you see how Paul Soliai played in 2007? He was objectively awful.

There are some holdovers, but they are largely players that Parcells and Ireland deserve credit for. They developed those players. Paul Soliai had to be repeatedly disciplined and had a tremendous amount of technical and physical development. He was not a productive, good player in 2007.

The same with Yeremiah Bell. When Parcells and Ireland inherited Bell he was a 200lb. mediocre player who had 12 career starts in 4 years and got most of his career snaps a Nickel specialist. When they took over they had him gain 20lbs. and become a stereotypical strong safety, which is what he excels and made Pro Bowls as.

 

The obvious explanation is that Ireland's convinced that they can win with this team - and that winning will secure his job.

 

That doesn't make sense. If his job depends on winning this year, what benefit do the trades provide? Why not sacrifice the future to win now by trading picks and signing FAs?

 

You assume that Ireland's convinced we're a worse team this year after the trades. I would propose that this is a grave misconception.

 

I don't buy it. You make those trades because they make the team better overall, but not this season.

 

See, I don't buy that. You don't trade Brandon Marshall for a couple of thirds because you think that two thirds can make your team better overall than a WR like Brandon Marshall. You trade Brandon Marshall because you think that his antics are a detriment to this team right now.

 

Surely you can't be serious. Jason Taylor just came off a DPOY season. Joey Porter was in his prime and went on to have a DPOY caliber season in 2008. So here goes:

Paul Soliai can either be Paul Soliai or Keith Traylor at the time
Cam Wake = Joey Porter in his prime (1 year prior to his DPOY caliber year)
Dansby = Zach Thomas. But this one you got.
Randy Starks = Jason Taylor coming off a DPOY season

Let's not forget:

Yeremiah Bell in his prime - Better than any Safety we have by a country mile
Vernon Carey in his prime
Renaldo Hill - Better than any FS we currently have
Andre Goodman - Better than any CB we have other than Sean Smith
Channing Crowder - who you love to defend - equal to Burnett and at least as good as Misi
Matt Roth - not too shabby

Chris Chambers - twice as good as anyone not named Bess
Marty Booker - twice as good as anyone not named Bess
Wes Welker - do I really need to explain?
Ronnie Brown - in his prime is at least as good as Bush

All you had to do was think medium hard about it, Disgustipate

 

If anything, Tony Sparano and his staff developed those players.

 

Brandon Marshall is a detriment to the team, for a couple of reasons. Primarily being a PITA for coaches, and setting a poor example for players. But if you are in "win-now at all costs" mode, then you tell your coaching staff to get the hell over it, because your job is on the line.

And I certainly see your argument in the Marshall situation. But the Vontae Davis trade is absolutely a move done with the future in mind at the expense of the immediate future. When you combine that with the fact we barely spent in free agency, it tells me that Ireland is convinced he'll be around this offseason.

 

Any harder to believe than when Randy Mueller was doing the same in 2007?

 

So bad coaching causes 1-15 but not 7-9 because that was lack of talent? I'm trying real hard to understand your guys point.

 

Keith Traylor in 2005 and 2006 was close to Paul Soliai now. 2007 Keith Traylor was broken down.

Joey Porter was not a very good player 2007, and was a noted scapegoat that people inexplicably decided was miscast playing DE. The Dolphins got mileage out of him 2008-present by using him in a way he previously wasn't used, but he was a bad player in 2007.

Randy Starks and Jason Taylor don't play the same position. At all.

Yeremiah Bell was not in his prime. He was a largely unheralded player who had a different build and play style when he was turned into the Pro Bowl player he became in 2008.

Renaldo Hill you might have an argument on, actually.

Channing Crowder and Kevin Burnett are pretty close in terms of overall contribution for that time period, but Burnett is better, and a full-snap player.

Matt Roth was not a good player in 2007. He was miscast as a +/- 300 pound 2-gap DE, it wasn't until he was moved to OLB by the staff you're throwing under the bus.

Chris Chambers circa 2007 was years removed from being more productive than Brian Hartline, and less reliable.

Marty Booker is pretty comparable to Davone Bess.

Yes, you do need to explain how Wes Welker circa 2007 is at all comparable.

 

Ok, let me see if I can get this right:

Both rosters sucked. Bad coaching is the difference between a bad roster going 1-15 and a bad roster going 6-10

 

Yes, that's more accurate, I misspoke. However, you've got to give the personnel people credit for keeping them, Soliai especially.

 

Which resulted in the owner handing the keys to the franchise to Bill Parcells. Do you think Stephen Ross will acquiesce that much power to someone?

 

I don't think Ireland's in "win-now at all costs" mode. I think he's comfortable that his team can win enough games not to make this an issue to begin with. I also happen to think he's wrong.

Of course he's convinced; but that doesn't mean we have to be too, does it? I also think that we have to get over the notion that the Davis trade was a rebuilding move. They had him demoted to #3, the coaches clearly didn't like what they saw from him, and someone came knocking who obviously valued him a lot more than they did and was prepared to pay for it.

 

WTF?

Really? You said:

I pointed out that that was ridiculous.

Jason Taylor came off a DPOY year.
Joey Porter went on to have a DPOY year the following year.

I was simply stating that you couldn't have been more wrong.

You then went on to do your strawman bull**** and say that I compared Jason Taylor and the position he played to Randy Starks. Absolutely ridiculous. My point was obvious. Jason Taylor in 2007 was at least as talented as Randy Starks is in 2012.

 

I just don't see someone who's job is in jeopardy taking any chances.

Its not a rebuilding move, but it certainly was done with the future taking precedent over the immediate. A 2nd round pick is of no value to Jeff Ireland if he isn't around to use it.

 

Thank you. But i'm still a little confused. I'll see if I can explain why.

You claim the 1-15 roster had more talent then the 6-10 team. So, how many more wins do you see for each roster if they each had better coaching....and you'd have to think that 1-15 would have a higher win total, based on your take about them being more talented. Or am i still not getting it?