A lot of people have Terrance Williams as the #1 WR on their board, so I decided to take a closer look. I watched all the targets from six games across 2011-2012. Below are my notes in real-time as I made them, so you'll see my opinions actually change somewhat as I keep watching film. I would love people to post their opinions of Terrance, rebuttals, agreement, video clips etc. I like CK's idea of having a thread to put all of one particular player's info and clips in. That will be handy as the draft approaches. Here are my notes: Terrance Williams, Baylor WR (Games Watched: 2012 - WVU, Iowa State, 2011 - Texas, OSU, Oklahoma, Missouri) - nice size - comes back to help his QB when pressured - strong, beats jam nicely - drops ball - tackled easily after catch - doesn't seem to have that extra intensity to go get it when the ball is a little off target. he just gives up on off target balls. - curl, comeback are best routes on off coverage… occasional post seam from wide slot, or deep fade vs press. All routes Hartline already gives us. too Hartlinish for my liking. Just a more physically impressive version. What Terrance does with good measurables, Hartline does with great route technique. This suggests that with development Terrance is a better version of Hartline. - works out of slot to threaten seam when not outside, a bit versatile (not ideal in slot though) - Not a bad blocker! Even gets a pancake block! lol. love his blocking. - Catches better when he can jump slightly then tap toes. Sideline king. - Suspect that would translate well to the redzone. So far he's not showing up as a deep threat for TDs, so much as a 5-19 yard TD pass guy from inside the redzone. - not fast-looking - trips with open filed ahead of him for a TD. Lacks that last killer instinct to get it done. Very Hartline move actually. - YAC suffers because he entirely sacrifices his base to catch the ball, bringing his feet together for some reason so he has no balance after the catch, nor is he ready to run or change directions well after the catch. - Falls down a lot untackled. just seems a bit out of body control and unbalanced. - His slants are ugly, imo. Not crisp route. Concerned about how that translates in timing offense. Seems more valuable on the outside than slot, actually. - Majority of his catches he is headed back towards the LOS. You can't be a serious threat to Safeties that way. Why so few over the top of the defense plays? - Wow.. into his second game and all I can think is, if THIS is who we are discussing as the top WR this year it's a weak-*** class of WRs. This guy looks no better than a 3rd round projection to me in a great WR class, maybe 2nd round in an average class. He's a great 3rd receiver for a team, or a so-so 2nd receiver. - This guy is the #1 WR prospect to some people? Really? Put on some tape of Stedman Bailey and get back to me. - later in WVU game he starts to change my mind a bit with two catches over the top of the defense showing good ball tracking, soft hands, good body control. - As I suspected, he catches a nice redzone TD where he jumps slightly with his feet together to toe tap in the back of the endzone. I can see him being very useful inside the 20. - Actually, nice deceptive technique with his route on that back of the endzone TD… chopping his feet quickly fakes hips inside and gets the CB out of position for long enough to slip behind him to the outside for the back of the endzone fade. This guy could catch fades for a living, I think. - Goes to show why you need to watch more than one or two games to get a real idea of a player. If I'd stopped after one and half games, I'd have thought very little of Terrance. Now I'm seeing some of the skills and talent. - He looked like he had quicker feet and played faster in 2011 than in 2012. Did he put weight on or something? Where did that speed and quickness go? - Oh hell yeah.. he catches a crossing route in 2011 between two defenders, kicks it into another gear and is GONE for the TD. The same play, same positioning in which he was run down from behind the next year, and it doesn't appear to be opponent speed. He is simply moving faster in 2011 than in 2012 imo. - yet in 2012 highlights he seems to get behind CBs… I still think he lacks elite speed… and has more Hartline type ability to get deep. - looks like he gets on top of CBs from time to time because they have to respect his ability to catch underneath curls and comebacks, his ability to run a crossing or slant route, and his ability to really destroy their cushion by running hard directly at them and then breaking past them at exactly the right moment for them to be flat footed while they are unsure whether he will break in, back to the LOS or pass them. *Once on top of a CB, his height and frame help him position for the catch. - This guy is as effective as he is BECAUSE he can run all three routes / make all three types of catches (not necessarily technically great but he CAN do all three… which puts CBs in a bind, I think). If you mix these routes up all game long on his CB, or give him option routes I think he gives that CB fits. - Needs to run better routes, actually. It sounds contradictory, but he can run various TYPES of routes... but none of them perfectly. - Funny, I still am not high on him, but I see where he could be dangerous for a CB to deal with. - Great redzone toe-tap / drag your feet awareness. - Saw some 2012 highlgihts after and he showed more speed than I initially thought. Still, I wouldn;t consider him "fast". just a nice blend of decent speed, decent size, decent hands, decent ability to flat-foot CBs or get them to turn their hips the wrong way for an instant (great timing at when to do this to a CB, which is why delayed option routes are perfect for him) Well, overall with this guy I come away STILL feeling like I need to watch more film. I started out saying he's a 2nd to 3rd round talent. Then I started questioning that with some of the catches. He plays bigger than he is, if that makes any sense. He's like a thicker, slightly faster Brian Hartline who will give you a few more TDs than Brian over the top. I think his versatility will really appeal to this coaching staff. Wouldn't surprise me if we took him in the 1st, though I am not on board with that at all. But I would much rather go all-in on Stedman Bailey at the top of the second round. I still don;t think Terrance is worth a 1st round pick in a decent WR class... and since this is a weak WR class, it's over-drafting him to take him any higher than the second round.
I think you're off in some of these. He is not Mike Wallace fast, but still he has plenty of speed. I don't think the comparison to Hartline is accurate at all. He has Hartline's chain moving ability, but he also has so much more. Main concern for him is that he indeed lacks a bit of physicality. This could be something to watch as that might impact his ceiling in the NFL. However, i liked him because IMO he is the most complete WR in the draft, and although he might not turn out to be a stud, i think his floor is very high. If we do not land Jennings in FA, i'd draft this guy. If we do get Jennings, i'd prefer Bailey then.
Nice write up, thanks. I've seen a few bits and pieces of Baylor games, not enough to really get a feel of him either. I like what I see out of him, but nothing that's particularly striking- and as I said, that's a limited opinion. What I do think that I see is an ability to stretch a defense, good size and decent quicks. If it were just a matter of speed Clyde Gates would still be a Dolphin and Marlon Moore would enjoy much more of a sense of job security. As to where he goes in the draft, that's a good question. Hindsite being 2020, his Baylor teammate from 2011 Josh Gordon would have been a really good 2nd rd fit for us if available imo, but that's water under the bridge. I'm guessing mid 2nd round to high 3rd rd for Williams. I like him, he's got size and good wheels, but there's nothing particularly compelling from what I've seen to warrant a 1st rd pick. BTW look at the 1st play on the clip below- that WVU #23 looks like Darrell Green closing in on Tony Dorsett the way he tracks Williams down. Williams looks decently fast until that guy comes flying in- either #23 is uber fast or maybe Williams is a bit slower than I think. Plus he did a Hartline at the end and just fell down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWudlePQytM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Hy5NJyqYg
The thing about Josh Gordon's success is that when Kendall Wright, Terrance Williams and Josh Gordon were all on the field together it was still very apparent that Terrance Williams was better than Josh Gordon. As for Terrance Williams' speed, he's a fast player. He threatens the field vertically every time he steps onto it. I saw the clip jim1 is talking about and it looks to me like as Terrance caught the ball he jammed his foot in the ground and stumbled, and that sapped his speed which he couldn't recover. Humans aren't built to get up to their top speed, de-accelerate, then quickly get back up to high speed. He's clearly running with a limp and was actually falling to the ground even before that #23 catches up to him. The thing I've always liked about him and I've said it a hundred times already is he commonly has a very narrow patch of grass to work with because Art Briles' offense involves such wide splits where both perimeter receivers are outside the numbers no matter which hash the offense is lined up on. He works that space between the sideline and defender expertly and threatens the defender vertically. If Brian Hartline had the speed to kill players deep then he'd be a much better player. As for the comparative speeds of Terrance Williams and that #23 (Brodrick Jenkins who supposedly runs a 4.50)...just fast forward to 2:06. Look how fast he eats up his cushion and how he blows right by him even though he got that cushion. The play at 2:41 is also a great example of what I'm talking about. Look how wide he's lined up to the sideline. To catch this ball either the QB has to place the ball with absolute PERFECTION on the outside shoulder, hitting the sidelines at the perfect depth, or Terrance Williams has to take that small patch of grass and actually get behind that defender and flat out beat him. Nick Florence has good touch but not THAT good, so of course he does not get the ball into the perfect spot, but Terrance Williams just beats the guy that bad. Pat Miller not exactly an NFL prospect but he is a senior and it would seem to me he started off with a pretty good advantage on Williams...but it didn't matter. That's what I like about Williams, by virtue of the position he's placed on the field when he wins, he had to do it the hard way. Then you look again at 3:28 and he's not only got a narrow patch of grass to work with, it's also a short field. He's got about 15 to 18 yards in front of him, with only at most 3 yards to the side, to get open against Brodrick Kyeremeh (who runs a 4.48) and catch the pass in the end zone.
Interesting point as per the slip, but I don't know. It looked to me as more of a slight misstep that he had a good 15 yards diagonally to recover from. Then he just started to stumble and fall down in the last few yards, but from my point of view #23 had already closed in on him like a cheetah. Giving your point of view the benefit of the doubt, maybe WVU should send the other two DBs in on the play to track camp. As per Gordon, as far as I can recall I've only seen him play with Cleveland. He looks pretty darned good to me, but I can't really have an opinion as per Gordon v Williams while at Baylor. Kendall Wright seems more like a pure burner to me with better quicks. I've seen a bit of Williams here and there, and the best that I can recall is stuff like him getting open deep down the left sideline against UCLA the other day. Nice stutter at LOS, break left and accelerate. He looked good- that's not a whole heck of a lot to go on, but I like what I saw. He looks good going across the middle to me, but nothing to write home about. I wouldn't be disappointed with him in rd 2, but as always it depends on who else is on the board at the time. As per the play at 2:06, you can't really see the whole play from the clip. The play started from about the WVU 37 iirc and what happens between those two is largely out of frame. #23 can obviously run well and that was indeed a short patch of grass to work with. Kudos to Williams for making the play, but you just can't see from that clip all that he did on that play, and to what extent to credit him for gaining separation- I don't know what #23 did for most of that play, I can't see it. Nonetheless, Williams got the job done, to his credit. At 2:41- looks like the DB stumbled a bit at the end- I'm trying to go over it again because it's a low quality picture, but I'm having a slow internet day and youtube is locking up on me. Regardless, I agree with you as to the vertical threat aspect that Williams brings, and that's what I like about him. Williams can break off the line well, use his speed to gain separation, track the ball and make the catch. That's what I see when I think of him for the Dolphins- stutter step, break wide and up the sideline and make the deep catch. Stretch the defense.
Agree to disagree, looks pretty clear to me he jammed up his foot during the catch and never recovered from it, was actually limping while he ran. There's a replay which shows the entire route and interaction between the two players. Jenkins gives him an 8 yard cushion and begins back pedaling immediately at the snap. Williams gives a subtle fake to the inside getting Jenkins to swivel his hips slightly to the inside but then Williams pushes to the outside and when Jenkins flips his hips to stay with him, he's beaten. Fine bit of subtle route running and a fine show of pure vertical speed. He's stumbling because he's been beat and so he grabs onto the back of Williams in clear pass interference (which is why all the flags were thrown) and starts getting dragged along for the ride.
I actually really like the Roddy White comparison. He is still my favorite WR prospect in this draft. Big fan of Williams. Agree with that he has a very high ceiling and will be able to contribute right away from year one. Saw a couple of interviews with him and think he fits the mentality that our coaches and GM want. Also when you watch him you can't help but think that he is a "football player" a type of guy Philbin would want.
I actually really like the Roddy White comparison. He is still my favorite WR prospect in this draft. Big fan of Williams. Agree with that he has a very high ceiling and will be able to contribute right away from year one. Saw a couple of interviews with him and think he fits the mentality that our coaches and GM want. Also when you watch him you can't help but think that he is a "football player" a type of guy Philbin would want.
I like this guy. He's quick off the LOS, reminds me a bit of Chad Johnson. Quick feet and fast. He seems light, I wonder if he'll have a problem with press coverage in the pros. He runs a nice post route shown at 1:47 and 2:17, shows good speed and ability to separate. I also like the way that he concentrates and looks the ball into his hands when catching. I think that he'd be a good fit for what we need in a vertical threat and I'd be happy to get him, maybe a 3rd or 4th round guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIs0pFOkR74
I was thinking of starting a thread on him later. Handful of reasons why I like him that extend beyond the obvious stuff like playing at a faster speed than the rest of the field. He's quick-twitch and explosive enough off his first step that I'm not certain corners would want to spend a lot of time pressing him.
I think that starting a thread on him would be a good idea. It's that quick twitch explosion in him that reminds me of Johnson- in his prime Johnson was one of the best coming off the line that I've ever seen, and he was still good at it in the limited time he was in Miami. It's the first thing that I noticed about Wheaton, and to me those qualities carry a lot of weight.
I'm not sure I see any Chad Johnson in Markus Wheaton aside from the uniform. I see somewhere between a Mike Wallace and a Tiquan Underwood.
I think that Mike Wallace is a good call, honestly I have no idea as to Underwood. The Oregon St. connection aside, it's Wheaton's quick feet and explosion that got my attention and brought Chad Johnson to mind. They're also pretty similar size wise, but I'm thinking that Wheaton is thinner. I've been thinking Terrance Williams vs Markus Wheaton- my gut reaction for Miami is Wheaton. Williams does have more size to him, but Wheaton's qualities seem to fit well with what we need at WR, specifically speed and explosion. And I don't mean that to discount the other important stuff like concentration, hands and route running, which seem to be the past and future dooms of Clyde Gates and Marlon Moore. That being said, it's still in my mind how nicely Williams busts it up the sideline. I'd have them both on the radar.
I think Williams over Wheaton all day personally. Wheaton is faster but I like the size of Williams and think he translates better. More well rounded and better hands.
I could see it both ways. My thought process is that Wheaton quenches that metaphorical thirst in terms of speed/explosion/quicks. Then I think of Williams and see the size and deep speed and I see what could be a true #1. Given what the Dolphin WRs currently bring to the table, I lean towards the speed and quicks. As to hands, to me they both seems to catch the ball smoothly, and with Wheaton he seems to focus on the ball and look it in. Personally, I need to see both of more. I'm interested in what kind of frame Wheaton has, because 6-1 180 lbs seems thin, if those numbers are accurate. I have no idea if he's been injury prone or not.
You would know far better than I. All that I can say is that I have both on the radar, I want to learn more and I could see each of them as being solid additions.
I think they're different players. Personally I'd rather have Patton over Williams, and in that regard I'd prefer Wheaton opposite as Patton's compliment. 3 guys in the 2nd round I want very badly. Patton, Da'Rick Rogers, and Wheaton. I'd even be a hoarder and take all 3. lol
I still think that the most talented and complete WR that I've seen in this draft class is Da'Rick Rogers. The off field baggage stuff is a bummer.
Even taking the attitude stuff aside I didn't see enough from Da'Rick Rogers in 2011 to make that kind of claim. I don't think he's very fast.
He's the most talented IMO, and with the potential to possibly become the most complete. I feel the most complete receiver is currently Patton or Allen. I'm not so worried about the off field baggage at the moment as it could very well prove to be a character builder for a kid who previously was naively experiencing the star athlete's version of God complex b/c on the field he's nothing but competitive fire. He's got the similar kind of fire I thought Dez had coming out.
I thought he looked like a 4.5 guy who could sneak into the 4.4s if he puts in the training.... but it's been a while since I've watched him play.
He looks like the total package to me, speed included. 1st clip- shows a burst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26UYATqb7ZI Look at the physical play here at 1:30 and some nice sideline deep separation shown 3 times- the last one clearly shows the Oregon DB grabbing his sleeve, he fights right through it, but the pass was too wide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF3BUyakyag Hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMruCW43-Io That's a pretty sick catch 2011 Tennesse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BHOXRyDLuw I can't think of any aspect of Rogers' game that I don't like.
The thing is, how often do you see someone who has a lot of off the field baggage actually use that as a character builder and "change his stripes" so to speak?
Rodgers is a very good player with an attitude problem.. If he comes out, My guy for this offense, is Robert woods, the detail of his route running alongside what these coaches desire in this scheme is a match imo, his hands and athleticism are Very good as well..I think he'd be a great pick in the 2nd. Don't let Marquise Lee talk you into staying buddy..go make that money son.
I remember coming away from a handful of Robert Woods games asking 'Why is he so touted?" I have to sit down and actually take some notes and see if I still feel that way when I watch his targets. He left me tepid last time.
Some intriguing stats on Terrance Williams: Courtesy of The College Football Experiment While some may not put much stock into the numbers, all 5 of the receivers that are in the NFL on this list are productive NFL players. Some may argue against Danario Alexander, and while he has had his injury issues, he has emerged as San Diego's best receiver over the final half of the season with 33 receptions for 563 yards and 6 touchdowns. Also, only two players in the past 10 years in college football have averaged more yards per reception while also catching at least 60 passes than Terrance Williams -- Kenny Britt and Lee Evans.
I hate to nitpick because the touchdown is a good play. However, it looks to me like even though he did a great job cutting to create a favorable angle for himself, both DB Brian Jackson (4.52) and scarily the linebacker Bokemo Lokombo (4.68) were kind of gaining ground on Da'Rick Rogers before he reached the pylon. If the track were just a little longer he's caught most certainly by the one and maybe even caught by the other as well. And I think at 2:08 you're going to look at that play and say, see he beat that guy vertically. That's true, he got a step on Terrance Mitchell. The problem? Mitchell mostly recovered what he'd lost and was staying stride for stride with Da'Rick Rogers. What's the problem with that? The fact that according to NFL Draft Scout Mitchell's last campus 40 testing was a 4.62. No argument from me there. That's a sick, man-amongst-boys type catch. Love it. But the obvious question that comes to mind is, what NFL team does Tyrone Prothro play for? The truth is I took a look at Da'Rick Rogers' work in 2011 and came away thinking he might be even better than Justin Hunter. More consistent, anyway. But the more I thought about it the more I realized that says more about Hunter on the negative side than it does Da'Rick on the positive side. It probably also says something that JUCO Cordarrelle Patterson comes in and shows Hunter up in 2012 just like I felt Rogers did in 2011. When you really get down to brass tacks with Da'Rick Rogers though I can't help but wonder if he's a lot slower than people think. His attitude is certainly a problem and I find that bad attitude guys often show up poorly when it comes to the testing period at the Combine and the like. I can only speculate why (e.g. not taking the training seriously) but even if he did put in the work then there's a possibility he looks worse on a track than people realize anyway. I'm very particular about calibrating speed because you can't just evaluate it in a vacuum. In the last video actually the first touchdown on it is from the 2010 season, but the rest were 2011. Let's go through them so that we have an accurate idea what we're looking at. 1. The first deep touchdown from 2010 was on North Carolina's CB Mywan Jackson who runs a 4.52 and moved from wide receiver as a freshman in 2009 to corner as a sophomore in 2010. 2. The second big 58 yard play was against University of Buffalo's CB Cortney Lester who was at the time a redshirt freshman. He bit badly on the double move and while he stayed stride for stride with Rogers, he couldn't recover lost ground. I don't know what Lester runs. I do know he's not exactly on anyone's radar for the NFL. 3. The next play looks better because he actually beats people with speed there. He once again has Cortney Lester trailing him and actually this time Lester gets the better of Rogers on the long run from a speed standpoint. On the other hand, Da'Rick cleanly outruns #3 Josh Copeland the safety from Buffalo. Copeland is trying pretty hard but Rogers flattens out the angle and he wasn't gaining ground on Rogers, he was slightly losing it. What's the problem with that? Josh Copeland ran a 4.87 at his Buffalo pro day. 4, 5 & 6. At this point it's becoming obvious that redshirt freshman CB Cortney Lester of University of Buffalo cannot handle Da'Rick Rogers in man coverage. Add two more touchdowns to the count against Lester. But really, a quarter of your season highlights video is you beating the man coverage of University of Buffalo's redshirt freshman CB Cortney Lester? 7. Now we're into some MEAT. Show me some work against Alabama. Now he makes a nice, physical catch here against DeQuan Menzie. But is it me, or does he look pretty slow compared to Menzie? Which is strange because Menzie only ran a 4.59 at his pro day. This is not a play where he showed any kind of speed. 8. Much better here. Going up against Alabama's Dee Milliner who will rightly go in the 1st round this year, beats him on the slant. Credit to Rogers on this, ran a good route and got the separation. I don't think there was ever any question though that Milliner was going to easily recover his lost ground. 9. That's a nasty physical play against the Honey Badger of LSU. That was straight up physical size, strength and superiority. He jacked Mathieu up in the jam and moved to the inside where the Honey Badger with his 4.54 speed took a while to recover the ground he lost, and when he did, he couldn't bring Rogers down physically. But if you're specifically trying to look at this to calibrate SPEED, you will note that the 4.54 Honey Badger DID make up his lost ground. 10. This is obviously just a totally blown coverage by Cincinnati. Not sure it should even be in highlights except that it's a touchdown. 11. Nice little underneath route against what looks like it could've been Stephon Gilmore who was bailing off the snap. But within context, and again I realize this is going to sound like I'm nit picking, he had 4 catches for 35 yards on the day. I can and did show plenty of clips of Derek Moye catching passes underneath just like this against Dee Milliner and Dre Kirkpatrick...didn't help him make the team as a UDFA. If it's not within the context of a larger body of positive work against this high quality corner then little underneath routes like this aren't going to be super impressive. 12. Another nice little sideline route against what looks like Arkansas freshman CB Tevin Mitchel (4.52) with S Tramaine Thomas (4.53) coming over to help. Not sure a route and catch like this is going to put speed on display. Rogers did a good job in this game with 5 catches for 106 yards. 13. Again no doubting Rogers' physicality. Breaks a tackle by it looks like true freshman S De'Ante Saunders of Florida. 14. Here again we have Da'Rick Rogers being covered by true freshman De'Ante Saunders. He uncovers off the scramble drill and Saunders has trouble catching him and recovering lost ground. My question to you though is, how much do you learn about Da'Rick Rogers from a play like this when you consider Saunders was a true freshman who ran 4.59 at his last campus testing? Why did Florida feel fine about having true freshman Saunders with 4.59 speed shadow Rogers around the field? 15. What a fantastic display of physical authority with the football in the air as he catches a touchdown against Cincinnati with both S Drew Frey (4.58) and S Wesley Richardson (4.74) bearing down on him. It's a zone and he found the spot between the zones. My question is, does this play show you anything about his speed? 16 & 17. We are certainly getting warmer now with Florida true freshman CB Marcus Roberson (4.52) covering Da'Rick Rogers first on a slant and then on a skinny post. 18. Nice little underneath catch against Vanderbilt, whom he had a monstrous 10 catch, 116 yard and 2 TD game against. If he did a lot of that against Casey Hayward, that would probably be the most compelling piece of evidence in favor of Da'Rick Rogers in all of these videos and indeed quite possibly in all of his work both at Tennessee and Tennessee Tech. Here however, Casey Hayward is not on him. And be honest. The guy that tackles him #31 Javon Marshall looks plain faster, does he not? He ran a 4.48 at last campus testing. 19. Another nice underneath catch against Vanderbilt sophomore CB Steven Clarke (4.52). 20. A nice route and catch against Middle Tennessee State sophomore CB Kenneth Gilstrap, who is flying so far under the radar there isn't even a campus time on file for him. 21. He clearly beats the aforementioned Gilstrap deep here. Gilstrap's closing on him with the ball in the air might've had more to do with Da'Rick's tracking the ball and slowing up, but then again it might not have. Still. Kenneth Gilstrap? Really? 22. Gilstrap gets his revenge by outrunning Rogers after the catch on the crosser. Rogers never broke stride, Gilstrap was just faster. 23. Can't tell who this is against really but it's another catch against Arkansas in a soft zone. 24. He got Kentucky senior CB Randall Burden pretty good here. Created a lot of separation. Randall Burden was NFL Draft Scout's #72 rated corner in the 2012 Draft and ran a 4.62 at his pro day. 25. Here is actually the most positive example of Da'Rick Rogers' speed in all the videos. What you have here is Da'Rick running through and into Arkansas FS Tramain Thomas' zone on a deep catch. At the point of the catch there's a good 10 feet of separation between the two but they're running to the same spot. The problem for Thomas is he closes that distance and Rogers stiff-armed him in the face, slowing him down considerably. This cost him speed-wise and he had to re-group. Because of that I'm not sure I like the idea of calibrating Rogers' speed against Thomas' 4.51. You have two guys in trail trying their best to cover lost ground and their running wasn't affected by any actions on their part. One is #14 S Eric Bennett who, if you watch, is really being outclassed in the speed department. His last campus timing had him at a 4.60 in the 40. But the other guy is #31 SS Jerico Nelson. He was running step for step with Rogers and actually closing a very small amount of distance until Rogers had to slow up to avoid the corner from the other side of the field. The thing about that is...Nelson ran a 4.56 at his pro day this year. 26. He had Vanderbilt junior CB Trey Wilson (4.53) tucked into his hip pocket all during the route, but he just physically out muscles him with the ball in the air. Obviously this is a tough guy for 5'11" and 195 lbs type corners to deal with, physically. 27. The most impressive catch of the collection BY FAR. Here he's finally got a high quality corner on him in Casey Hayward in the end zone. They get physical with each other, Rogers pushes him to the ground (I don't think illegally) and then makes a stupendous one-handed grab. Incredible play. This is how I see Da'Rick Rogers. He's a physical specimen with great size, frame and physicality. He's got explosive qualities. He's capable of insane catches. But underlying all that is a player that really plays at about 4.55 speed on the football field, if not even a little bit slower than that at times. And while I think his combination of physicality, great hands and explosiveness would make him compelling in a Miami uniform, especially since that is one of the two main traits we're missing in our receivers unit at the moment (the other being speed), the question was whether Da'Rick Rogers would be considered the best overall receiver talent in the 2013 Draft class if not for his checkered past. I think the answer to that is a pretty clear no. He offers a lot of what a James Jones of Green Bay offers, both on the plus side, and on the negative side. He can pluck a ball out of the sky, he can beat a guy by bullying him around physically, and he can make a pretty keen cut every now and again...but he's got 4.55 speed and doesn't quite honestly have very much tape of him going against corners of any kind of quality whatsoever.
Thanks, great feedback. You make an interesting case. My basic feeling is that Rogers provides a compelling size/speed ratio, not that he's necessarily a burner, and he does look like the best all around WR to me. 4.50-4.55 sounds about right and he's at 6-3 215 lbs if I read that right. Tough over the middle, very physical , sure handed and he can get deep. You raise the issue of his speed relative to his competition, and it's a valid point. I'll put it this way- I was watching some film of Marquise Goodwin last night, and I don't remember who he was playing against, but boy did he look fast. Rogers looks fluid and fast to me, and I'd imagine if I saw him running down a football field with nothing else in sight except the field, he'd still look fast to me. But again, as to your point, it helps to see him run against known quantities as per DB speed. Again, my guess as to combine speed would be in that 4.50-4.55 range, and as a comparison the player who comes to mind is Mike Wiliams of Tampa Bay. Smooth athlete, not a true burner but enough speed to get deep. I was just watching some of this clip, and it has me thinking the same thing- Rogers can accelerate, nice burst, and he can move, especially for a physical alpha dog 6-3 215 WR. And this guy is an aggressive, physically dominating WR from what I've seen. I really have no issues with his speed as per these clips. Specifically: UNC around :30- he got open deep, I can't tell much other than that. The flea flicker after that play- nice little burst at the end, that's about all there. - the play at 1;10, catch across the middle from approx the UT 10 yard line- I don't know who that is- Duke, Buffalo- I can't tell, but Rogers looks like he's hauling there- even if you factor out the speed of the DB who can't keep up, just using the five yard field intervals as markers (30,35, 40, etc.) Rogers is tearing up some ground. -Alabama- I can't tell much of anything there not enough to see -LSU- is that #7 Mathieu? Interesting. Rogers caught it, busted accross the field and Mathieu caught him. he was able to accelerate while Rogers was catching the ball and has to (very) slighlty decelerate, no surprise to me there. They both look fast to me in that clip. UF 3:00- Rogers is caught from behind, but he's got two UF DBs in front of him, he was looking to maneuver imo, inconclusive 4:17 from about the 50 yard line- I can't tell what team this is, but Rogers beats the DB deep- inconclusive, even if I knew how fast the DB is you just can't see enough here. The best that i could say is that Rogers successfully got open deep. UK- look at the nice little moves at 4:55, the detail and fluidity Arkansas 5:02- I like this play for the purposes of this discussion. It shows to me that Rogers is fast, but he's clearly not stupid fast like Andre Johnson, who is just ridiculous for a similarly sized 6-3 220 lb guy. I look at this and think, ok I still like the speed, but I see a limitation here. And that's ok. BTW great TD catch at 5;31, we could use some of that. Again, to me this is a WR that scores high accross the board, with nearly ideal size, burst, quicks and solid, fluid speed. My guess for the combine: 4.52. Still my favorite WR. If not Rogers, I could still see Terrance Williams as a #1 for us, Wheaton I like quite a bit, but I wonder abut his physicality a bit, more so after the game last night. I might easily flop on my position on that one and go with you ranking Williams ahead of Wheaton. Marquise Goodwin- saw him last night, was impressed, looked some more, knocked my socks off. I have questions as to his overall productivity, but what do you think of this guy? I look at him and I see Jacoby Ford in size, build and speed and Joe Adams in terms of a slot replacement for Bess to inject speed into the passing game and a feared weapon for kick returns. This guy is blazing fast, tough, and heads up. And he's averaging something like 300 rec yards /year, not impressive on that count. Alen1 mentioned track&field taking away from football- that sounds plausible, it also makes me wonder how high his ceiling actually is. What do you think about this guy?
Williams is the 2nd best WR in this class IMO. The Roddy White comparison makes sense. I don't think he's as strong as White, but he could be a tad quicker than him.
White wasn't that strong coming out in the draft. He improved his game a lot there once he got to Atlanta. At this point, I would say Williams is a better prospect than Roddy White was when he came out.
Not going to make a new thread on Williams but add what I saw. Williams bread and butter is the short passing game. He is a big target and makes a nice security blanket but he is fast enough to beat his man 1 on 1. Its pretty rare for a guy to be his size but have that ability of stretching the field. His best ran routes are bubble screens, comeback, curl, and slants. Deep routes he needs work doesn't always sell his move. Has good hands but not great. He is a redzone threat with his size and does a good job getting physical with his defender. His versatility is really nice but needs some more work but I see him producing day 1 in the right offense. Williams would be terrific in our offense. I see him as a 2nd round guy but I saw enough of him to like him.
Totally agree. And I could see him taking Hartlines spot and providing a similar style of play, but with more deep balls, more redzone and endzone catches on contested balls. he is a SLIGHTLY better version of Hartline... which as a 2nd round value is FAR better than paying Hartline $5m or $6m a year! If we don;t get Jennins, I could totally see us getting Terrance Williams with 2a and Stedman Bailey with 2b. Okay, truth is, Ireland won't take Stedman because of his size. But that's a mistake.
I don't think he would have been personally scouting Stedman Bailey and Tavon Austin at the Pinstripe Bowl if was going to toss them out of consideration based on size alone.
