Tannehill's Contract - Offset Language Snag

I think it matters, yes.

Ryan Tannehill is probably going to play at some point this year. He might not win this starting job but he needs to prepare and compete as if he will.

 

Well I hope he doesn't play this year, so that seems to be the crux of disagreement here.

 

Hey I agree with you. I HOPE that he doesn't have to play this year.

But look back historically at situations where the rookie top 10 or 15 pick ended up sitting the bench the whole year...and ask yourself if the Dolphins' current position seems to fit that mold. It's a good exercise.

 

Nope, he losses more if he hold's out, but they'll give it an old college try with the offset language.

 

You know, I was just thinking about this. The whole football world is now under the impression Ryan Tannehill is out of the QB race.

It would be pretty cool if Ryan made a genuine run at the job, despite everyone's expectations. Therefore, don't be surprised if on Hard Knocks it looks like Ryan is doing exactly that. This is television, after all.

 

I don't think historically you're going to find many situations in which a rookie has two veteran players who should be expected to start ahead of him on the roster. The Dolphins have appeared to have made a conscious decision in terms of roster building to ensure that they don't have to start Tannehill early.

 

The Dolphins have a 34 year old coming off back surgery that was so undesirable nobody even signed him the prior year and he was forced to sit out football, and a career backup on a backup's salary. Let's not pretend this is Aaron Rodgers being drafted onto a team that has Brett Favre, or Phil Rivers being drafted onto a team that has Drew Brees.

 

This is true, but Moore did have a better QBR than most of the QBs we'll be facing this year. I think the schedule is easy enough to where they won't be outclassed very often, even if the QB isn't a world-beater.

 

A few years ago, so did Kyle Orton.

I'm just saying that in most (all?) of the situations where you see a top 10 or 15 pick QB kept on the bench an entire year, there were some pretty different circumstances. The CLOSEST I can think of off the top of my head is when Cincinnati drafted Carson Palmer and continued on with Jon Kitna for an entire year. But I would personally describe that as a unique situation because Marvin Lewis literally declared right after drafting Carson that no matter what happens in camp (barring injury of course), Jon Kitna is the starter and Carson Palmer will spend the entire year on the bench. The Dolphins did not show that kind of decisiveness with Tannehill. Instead they said immediately he will compete on an even basis with both Garrard and Moore for the start.

 

Their respective career prospects are irrelevant. Label them whatever you'd like, but both players have fairly consistently played at a level acceptable for temporary rein-holders. There's a degree of uncertainty that they can both do it this season, but you're overstating it. Do you have any information that Garrard's back is potentially a reoccurring issue? Because as far as I know at least, he passed a normal physical with no winking or nudging.

We need one of the two to pan out, and I think it's more likely both are capable of being 80-something QB rating starters this season than it is neither of them.

 

I think he's absolutely groping to play this year, unless y'all believe we're going to the playoffs, as soon as we're out, he's in, no doubt.

 

Garrard was out b/c of injury. The year before the injury he was a 90 rated QB. Moore was an 87 rated QB last season. I can't think of a historical example of a rookie QB drafted onto a team with 90 and 87 rated vets ahead of him that was expected to start ahead of them. Both of those guys have question marks that make T-hill the future instead of them (Garrard: injury/age and Moore: poor fit), but on a one-year basis I always thought T-hill was unlikely to start this year particularly with a HC whom I expected would be inclined and strong enough to have the rookie sit. I never believed that T-hill being familiar with the offense would negate all that. IMO the speed of the game was still an adjustment that would take time. I was and continue to be a big fan of the pick, but I believe that QBs should be developed slowly. I think the slow method is more likely to produce the next Aaron Rodgers than the throw them in right away method. I believe that if Rodgers/Alex Smith had changed draft positions/teams/situations, that Smith would now be considered at least a top 10 guy and that Rodgers would have struggled and just started to show/fulfill his promise this last season.

 

I have to ask - at this point - does anyone think he takes over the starter role before the start of the season? By game 8? If we're mathematically ruled out of the playoffs? At what point does NFL experience out weigh getting thrown to the flames "too early"?

I ask because I know we were all optimistic early, but all reports thus far indicate our hopes won't be a reality this year. Curious if anyone is still on board the train of thought that hes our guy this year already...

 

So in 2007 the Dolphins uniquely positioned themselves to not force John Beck into playing early because they had Trent Green and Cleo Lemon.

 

I don't think he will, at all. I think they keep him on the bench until mid-season 2013.

 

If Joe Philbin is as big of a failure as Cam Cameron, then you will end up being correct. I have more faith in Philbin than that though.

 

I'd have to think about it a lot more obviously, and I'd have to see a lot more from the prospects involved in this decision. But personally I will say this. There are two MAJOR changes that have gone on recently. One has been slow developing, and the other has been sudden. They are:

1. The domination of elite quarterbacks over the game
2. The rookie wage scale

The rookie wage scale is the most sudden and drastic change and it makes it to where the risk-averse practices that we'd gotten used to over the past decade-plus, practices maybe we didn't even REALIZE were risk-averse practices, should now be repealed. Couple it with the domination of elite quarterbacks, you're forced to purposely try and challenge old ways of thinking. What is the REAL reason not to do exactly what you're supposing? At the risk of trying to re-invent the wheel, what is the real cost-benefit?

Right now I think if Logan Thomas or Matt Barkley are staring me in the face at that pick then yes I've got a hard decision because in my opinion not only are they better QB prospects than Ryan Tannehill, they're QB prospects you don't necessarily get a whack at every year. Not that they're "once in a decade" players, I'm just saying you as a team can end up going 10+ years where you don't have a valid whack at a player that talented. Look at Miami in the 10 years after Marino...you keep picking too low and then you have to accept these much less attractive risk-reward profile QBs, or just avoid the position altogether.

 

It's not that simple. There's some disagreement as to whether he didn't get signed because he needed surgery, or whether he had the surgery because nobody wanted him. I saw something not long ago suggesting that Garrard came to the Dolphins looking for us to sign him and it was the Dolphins that said no. But then if you rewind back to the time you get stories saying it was Garrard who had an offer on the table from the Dolphins and said no because he didn't like it. And by the way, Garrard himself said that, back then...quoted.

Either way the Dolphins were pretty much the only team that even took a sniff at him in 2011, and I certainly didn't see any teams taking a whack at trying to get him to sign in 2012 either. The Dolphins were out there flirting with Peyton Manning, Matt Flynn and Alex Smith, so from Garrard's perspective he had every incentive to try and go wherever he could. I think there was one other team offered him a chance to compete for the backup job. Miami offered him a chance to compete for the starting job. Meanwhile you have all these Barry Jackson quotes from all these NFL head coaches and GMs and they are NOT flattering toward Garrard at all. Quite frankly from the look of those quotes, they're flat shocked that Garrard is in the lead for the job right now.

The last full season that Trent Green had played prior to coming to Miami was a 90 rated season. You can say yeah but he only had a 74 rating in the partial year prior to coming to Miami, but the year before Garrard came to Miami he had a 0 rating because he was out of football. He called teams, tried to get signed, you can't deny it, nobody signed him, and he spent the year out of football. Also in 2007, the Dolphins had Daunte Culpepper on roster.

You could have looked at that situation with John Beck being drafted in the 2nd round and said there's no way Beck will be forced into action too soon, this is a unique situation where a rookie got drafted onto a team that already had TWO pro bowlers at quarterback. What a unique situation. John Beck will never play as a rookie, right?

Right?

 

So John Beck played as a rookie because Cam Cameron was a failure?

I disagree.

 

I realize I'm the one opposing your theory here, but surely there is at least a better example than that? Both Garrard and Moore in their last action were significantly better than Trent Green, much less Cleo Lemon coming into 2007.

 

David Garrard's last action prior to joining the Dolphins was asking for a job and not finding one, choosing to undergo back surgery. Prior to that he had a 90 passer rating. Similarly Trent Green's last action before joining Miami was having a tough partial-year and getting his eggs scrambled. Prior to that he had a 90 passer rating too. So yeah I do think you can make a case that those two signings are pretty similar. Do I theorize that the Garrard signing will have a happier ending? Of course. But let's not kid around about what David Garrard's reputation was around the NFL at the time the Dolphins signed him. The NFL remains pretty skeptical that it's going to work out for us.

And meanwhile, can anyone tell me the real difference between Matt Moore and Kyle Orton circa off season 2011?

I'm just saying, listen to what DJ is suggesting. We get down the road, we've lost too many games...you going to keep putting up the 34 year old with a back problem that is performing mediocre? You gonna put out the Kyle Orton wannabe that intends to leave your team as fast as his legs can carry him when his contract is up? Or do you want to start finding out what you drafted at #8 overall so that you can make some decisions about what you need to do next off season?

If Las Vegas put out a line on whether Ryan Tannehill will have 50+ pass attempts this year, I bet that line settles at -200 Yes and +160 No. And if anyone wants to pretend that's unreasonable for me to think that way or that I'm somehow biased, all the power to them.

 

Trent Green was playing poorly before he was injured. David Garrard was not. I'm not sure what you're basing all these innuendos on Garrard's health on, either. He's had surgery, been cleared, and passed a physical. Unless there's some other information, or unless you're going to page KB21 to give a medical assessment I think it's pretty difficult to say it's a serious concern.

It's a possible outcome, absolutely. There absolutely seems to have been a purposeful attempt to make it so that if they do start Tannehill, it's because they want to, not due to injury or ineptitude.

 

Does that sound like a QB that deserved to start?

 

I think you are correct with one stipulation, the offensive line. If the offensive line is holding up he will play. I don't want him to come in and play for a 3-9 football team AND get his head kicked in behind a leaky offensive line.

 

Still unsigned. Tomorrow is first day of camp...

 

today is the day...

 

Players reported this morning at 8am. He's a 2 hour holdout. I hate applying that term to a man that has no contract but nobody's ever come up with a better term.

 

Although I wouldn't consider him a holdout until DJ's at camp with a sad face because he can't see Ryan Tannehill. So really they've got until tomorrow.

 

is he in miami ? probably , so he will be there in no time i guess, so he has until the first practice starts on friday

 

Cam Cameron was coming in as one of, if not THE highest touted OC in the NFL. How is that any worse/different than Philbins situation?

 

Im not talking about what he did leading up to his arrival. Im talking about what he did when he got here. He lost the team by the halfway point of the season.

 

Philbin hasnt even started the season. Believe me, I hope he does fantastic and is our coach for a long, long time, but I just don't see why the blind faith in Philbin...?

Although he never said "fail forward" or drafted Ted Ginns family or anything like that

 

He lost the team before he even met the players.

The team publicly called for Capers, from the second Saban left.

 

Philbin has already won the team over. Cameron never did.

 

RT is only hurting himself if he choses to remain unsigned after tomorrow morning, IMO.

As for the comparison of the Cameron 2007 season to the Philbin 2012 season theres a world of difference:
1. Beck picked round 2; Tannehill #8 round 1
2. Cameron knew Beck via film study only - Sherman has 4 years of coaching Tannehill
3. Cameron ran a Camp Med - no pressure no competition. Philbins camp by all appearances so far is full of both pressure and competition.
4. Cameron, from day one, didn't sit well with the fan base. He lost it with "Ted Ginn's Family!" - Joe Philbin on the other hand has been a model for the right way to connect with the fan base. I would bet this has carried over into how he is preceved by the players also - it did with Cameron as he had little or no control and it showed.

There is no arguement that Garrard and Green are like 2 peas in a pod - that could well be a weakness but to compare Moore with Lemon I think not! Moore is the much better player and person plus he has the backing of ALL of his teammates.

 

Philbin actually got to choose all of his coaches

 

Tru dat

 

I don't have any blind faith in Philbin. He could be a bad coach. It would be very difficult to be as bad as Cameron though.