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Tank for Tua is on

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by TheHighExhaulted, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Richmond Webb- 9th overall pick
    Keith Simms-39th overall pick
    Michael Oher- 23rd overall pick
    Maurkice Pouncy-18th overall pick
    Johnathon Ogden-4th overall pick
    Larry Allen- 46th overall

    Shall I go on? What did these teams have in common? Success...because they had a STRONG offensive line and drafted them realtively high in the draft...if not VERY high. We've not had a strong offensive line since we drafted Jake Long.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking anything away from the quarterback. He is indeed the most important piece of the offensive puzzle however, without a strong offensive line, I don't care who have in the backfield as QB, he's going to suffer (ala Rodgers and Ryan this season).

    There isn't a QB coming out in the draft this season worth taking a chance on. Best build the foundation of the house first before pulling the trigger on that fancy roof.
     
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  2. mbsinmisc

    mbsinmisc Season Ticket Holder

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    Damn you and your reasonable approach.
     
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  3. mbsinmisc

    mbsinmisc Season Ticket Holder

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    A Michigan guy pimping Wisconsin players, What has the world come to?
     
  4. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    How about we try a different example: New England Patriots.

    They've consistently had a good OL and often with players drafted in the mid/late rounds. Try this year:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2018_roster.htm

    Trent Brown LT, 16 games started, 7th round, 244th pick
    Joe Thuney LG, 16 games started, 3rd round, 78th pick
    David Andrews C, 16 games started, undrafted
    Shaq Mason RG, 14 games started, 4th round, 131st pick
    Marcus Cannon RT, 13 games started, 5th round 138th pick

    See what I mean? You do NOT have to spend anything more than mid/late round picks to build a good OL. Belichick is doing it the smart way: spend few resources on the OL but still make sure they're good. We should follow suit and use 1st and 2nd rounders on skill positions.
     
  5. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    And Bill Belichick has been the head coach of the Patriots for 18 years..inheriting an already solid offensive line from Parcells. Belichick has only had to replace pieces at a time. He's never had the concern of having to completely rebuild an OL. Not very many teams have the luxury of what the Patriots have had.
     
  6. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    What does it matter how he arrived at those units? Are you saying you cannot build a good OL with mid/late round picks unless you started off differently? That makes no sense. Whether you're building from scratch or not, NE (among other teams) has proven you can have a good OL without spending huge resources on it.

    Key is good coaching. That's how you get around having to spend lots of resources on OL and that's what we should do: go through enough OL coaches until you find one that can build a decent unit. I'd give each coach 3 years max.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
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  7. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    I gotta be honest, Wisconsin is O-Line University. I want all 3 of their big boys on the Dolphins ASAP. I dont trust the Phins to coach up an offensive line, so I want ready-made players.

    P.S.
    Wisconsin sucks at everything else.
    :2guns:
     
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  8. Berezo

    Berezo Well-Known Member

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    Will Trevor Lawrence not be available next year like Tua? If he is I would prefer Lawrence, that kid is going to be something incredibly special.
     
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  9. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Lawrence is just a freshman...19 years old. Let him be a kid first before forcing him to grow up...but I like this kid too. This is a kid I would sell the farm for!
     
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  10. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    If I'm not mistaken there's no 100% guarantee Tua is available next year. He could wait to finish college.
     
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  11. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I agree you don't HAVE to. Their starting QB is also a late rounder...you don't HAVE to take a QB early either.

    Granted OL IS easier to find later on, my point is just that they might be an excepyion.

    My Personal O-Line Guide:

    Tackles - Mid 1st or 2nd round, elite talent early 1st

    Guards - 3rd to 4th round - Elite talent late first to mid 2nd

    Center: 2nd or 3rd round - Elite talent mid first

    Obviously if you can get a guy later who starts that is a gift, I just wouldn't bank on it. Those are the kind of guys who are forced to step in often due to injuries, sometimes they perform.
     
  12. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Except that the OL should be seen more as a unit instead of a collection of players with individual talent levels.

    The Dolphins OL in the Tannehill era is actually a great example of this. In 2012 we had Jake Long and Mike Pouncey, two really good 1st rounders, together with Martin (a 2nd rounder), Incognito (3rd rounder) and Jerry (3rd rounder). Clearly we over-invested in the OL compared to its production. And individually 3 of those 5 players were good to great. Yet the OL wasn't good. Why? Because you need to see it as a unit rather than a collection of individual players.

    In fact, the Dolphins OL has had either 2 or 3 1st rounders starting on the OL EVERY year since 2012, but with crappy results. Sometimes it's comical in terms of investment relative to production. In 2014 we had 3 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders as starters on the OL!!
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2014_roster.htm

    That shows two things: 1) we've way over invested in the OL relative to production, and 2) you can't just look at the talent level of individual players on the OL and infer how well the unit plays.

    What you call an "exception" is looking at the problem the wrong way. It's not so much about individual talent level than about coaching because you don't just sum up the abilities of the individual players to predict performance of the unit.
     
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  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    To me, it shows that they're focusing on things that don't matter in linemen. Hundreds of very solid linemen graduate every season and there's a ton of possible talent out there. How many of our scouts focus solely on linemen though? (my guess- zero) That's a problem when you're drafting for the most important position on the field.....you can't treat it like an afterthought and then expect to bring in a solid line.
     
  14. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Martin and Jerry were flat out busts regardless of where they were going to play. They are an example of terrible scouting, neither had much talent to begin with.

    We also had bully gate and whatnot as well as Long and Pouncey who were injured and never quite the same. Not sure if it was that specific season with injuries, but regardless of that Id say that line was lacking in 2 of 3 spots at the very least, and badly.

    I agree to an extent, but ideally you'd wanted talented players that flt together. Also we didn't pay a 3rd for Incognito, he was a FA so Id say his draft status was irrelevant.
     
  15. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    That's not true. John Jerry ended up being one of the best linesmen for the Giants after he left the Dolphins. Giants never had good tackles so their overall OL play wasn't good but their interior line was decent. John Jerry should have been a bust in NY but wasn't.

    We're talking about whether to spend mid/low vs. high round picks on OL so it doesn't matter as much what WE paid for the guy, what matters is his original draft status.
     
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  16. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Also, coaching and QB play has a lot to do with o-line success. And the Pats have consistently had 2 of the best for the last 20 years.

    The Dolphins need to find the QB FIRST and then build around him.

    Go and get Murray.

    If he's taken too high and out of their reach, trade down, get another 1st in 2020, and draft Stick in this years 2nd round. Or...draft a good DL player with the 13th and draft Stick in the 2nd too.
     
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  17. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Not in this context though, because when you sign a FA you don't care about his draft status. Where he was picked is entirely irrelevant because we are talking about using our own resources. You judge a FA on his performance alone.

    Also you just said Jerry was the best on a line that also sucked....not convincing really.

    IMO You're kind of cherry picking. I mean you named the guys who weren't a problem with that line as reasons not to draft players highly? Everyone knows Long and Pouncey both played at an elite level before injuries and that Incognito is/was a head case.

    If the goal is to cherry pick, after work I can try and go through all the late rounders who never played a down.
     
  18. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Yeah they're all inter-related. A good QB also makes a bad OL look much better, and I do think some of that NE example I gave is due to Brady. Similarly, that Giants example is due somewhat to Eli, etc.. And while the Giants OL was decent in pass protection, they remained piss poor in run blocking until this year where they were great because of Saquon Barkley, and now they're one of the best lol.

    So yeah all those things are inter-related. And another reason to prioritize QB is that it totally masks a bad OL if you have a mobile one. I know Russell Wilson is a fantastic example and is almost unfair to mention, but Luck didn't have a great OL until this year, and just look at all the low round and undrafted guys on Green Bay's OL:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2018_roster.htm
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  19. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    The context is your post #51 (it's the one I responded to) where you outlined where we should pick different OL. So what matters here is draft status because you don't know a priori how good a player will end up performing.

    The line overall was bad, but that was mostly because of bad run blocking. Jerry and the Giants' line was decent at pass blocking, far better than the turnstile he seemed to be here in Miami.

    No, in that post (#52) I pointed out we've over-invested in the OL relative to production AND that you can't just look at the individual talent on OL to predict how the unit performs. The post I used to show you don't have to draft high to have a good OL was the one with the Patriots (#44). There's no cherry picking there because it suffices to show you CAN build a good OL without high draft picks.
     
  20. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Honestly Im kind of lost as to where we disagree.

    I agree that just taking talent and plugging them doesn't equal success on the line. If you can find that fit working at the grocery store, take them. I agree that there isn't a specific spot that you have to draft a player.

    I think my only disagreement is the idea of only relying on late round picks. If they pan out it's amazing, but you need excellent scouting to do so.

    I mean, at the end of the day a guard can either hold his own against a 300 pound DL or he can't. You can mask deficiencies at guard with a strong center for sure, but I wouldn't take a guy in the 5th and assume he can plug and play without great conviction.
     
  21. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Well.. like I said in post #35 I've got no issues using a high round pick on an LT for example. I just disagree with the idea of prioritizing OL over QB and other skill positions in the draft (high round picks). So as long as you agree with that we have no disagreement.
     
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  22. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    This.

    You either get Murray or you trade down for a future pick and draft a devepmental QB in a later round.

    Only if Murray is picked way above us and nobody wants to trade for the 13th pick do you pick another position in round 1, IMO, that should be the last option on the table.
     
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  23. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Well I definitely agree with that. This year I'm feeling kind of iffy about the QB class, but if the team likes someone they should be nabbing them for sure.

    I also won't fault them this season if they do something like sign Bridgwater as a test while we build the team though.
     
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  24. keithjackson

    keithjackson Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    #fishtank
     
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  25. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nobody’s gonna pass up being the #1 overall pick in the NFL draft to stay in school. When was the last time that happened? Rich kid Peyton Manning 20+ years ago?

    Tua’s gonna declare and Tua’s gonna get PAID!
     
  26. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    The dude from Oregon probably would have been #1 this year
     
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  27. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You underestimate the power of Tua's family.
     
  28. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You underestimate the power of money.
     
  29. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I didn’t know that. Was he being projected as such?
     
  30. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not really.

    If I had to bet I'd put my money on Tua declaring next year. However, it's far from being certain that he will.
     

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