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State of the Franchise?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Mar 3, 2021.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    A little hump day honesty - or 'ump day honesty - pardon my rant, but...

    I found the Kyle Van Noy move concerning.

    The guy was clearly a decent player and leader. The kind of guy you want. This isn't going to be a move that's perceived well by other players, I think. And honestly, this sort of thing, plus the leaked comments about Tua, makes me question the idea that Flores has successfully established a good culture in Miami. It takes a few years of consistency before a culture can be established, so the work done in one or two years can be destroyed. I hope that's not the case. It might not be. But I have some question marks about the state of the franchise right now.

    Fitzpatrick felt let down and didn't feel afraid to say so.
    Some unnamed players felt let down that the 'best player will play' rule wasn't followed for the QBs - and they also didn't feel too afraid to say so (albeit anonymously).
    Our first year OC left. Now his replacement is gone. Now we have two co-OCs.
    I really want Tua to succeed, but I'm a bit bothered about the amount of commercial/promotional work he's engaged in, it just seems premature to me (but other young QB's are the same, so maybe that's just how it is now).
    If Tua proves inadequate it won't look good for Grier. (And just to be clear, I consider myself still in the 'Tua camp' - just trying to be honest here).
    If Ross was involved in the Tua pick, that doesn't speak well of the franchise (but that may not be reality).
    CB Jones was paid big money but Howard seemed to be the better piece and it makes one wonder if Jones was worth it.
    What's more, there have even been rumours that Howard isn't happy and will look to renegotiate his contract or get moved.
    Now KVN is cut.
    They did draft, and have now re-signed, Sanders, so that looks like a good move (I won't be cynical here and expect him to fall off!).

    As concerns the KVN move itself, one would think it has to be purely financial, and although the COVID year and resulting reduced cap was unexpected, it doesn't seem to put Grier in a good light. If Van Noy was worth the substantial contract he was given then is he really the guy you cut just to save cap space? On the other hand, if he wasn't, then you screwed up the contract in the first place.

    I know we're still in the middle of a rebuild but this offseason is really starting to wear on.

    If this year or the next starts to fall apart and the Flores and Grier era is a disaster, I might be out of energy with the Dolphins and NFL.

    I think for me, beyond any one roster move, good or bad, the main concern is whether the culture in Miami really isn't what it was touted to be, or else if it is, whether Grier, through poor contract/cap management and/or the cutting of players central to the culture build, prevents the establishment of a winning team.

    What do you think guys? Am I wrong to feel this way? Am I overly concerned - or not concerned enough? Maybe these are just the expected ups and down that come with a full rebuild - hits and misses, and I just need to go on vacation until the season starts. :D - Anyone with a Caribbean holiday home they can lend me?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
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  2. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    We are just the first to do it... there will be many other teams that will make tough decisions like that one soon..

    i dont like it... but i feel like they were forced into that decision due to the lower than expected cap number.
     
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  3. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    I don't like or trust Grier. He's shown me no reason to respect his talent evaluation skills so far. I think we still don't have a top-tier talent evaluator.
     
  4. Destroyer

    Destroyer There for every play.

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    You should definitely be concerned. This organization has done nothing in decades and should not have anyone's trust. I think this season is heading towards disaster when we should be in the playoffs.
     
  5. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've had similar concerns. You need look no further than the last game of the season in Buffalo to see that something is not totally right. Nobody showed up. Even the defense, the strength of the team, didn't show up except to leave a big steaming pile on the field.
    Not the type of performance that would fill you with hope for the next season. As fans, hope is all we have, watching solid football moves being made and enjoying the results on the field. Getting rid of the leaders is something that Philbin would do.
     
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  6. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Its the state of the NFL. Not the franchise. This wont be the only surprise cut... wait and see what other teams are going to do..

    Honestly, the owners arent willing to budge taking a hit on their revenue, which is why the cap went about 20 million lower than projected.
     
  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    My concern since day one was that building a "perennial championship contender" means you have to nail almost everything perfectly every time (drafts, trades, personnel, front office, etc.). I felt like the owner got hustled with an impossible promise and so far, Flores is the only proven superstar in the building. He's found a way to get minimal talent playing hard and coming together.

    Personally, I felt like Tua was unproven simply because of how awesome that Alabama offense was. I'm rooting for the kid so hard and I do think he's going to make strides in year two, but it's going to be a process. That worries me because our super-young team HAS TO BE in win-now mode to take advantage of those big contracts on defense. In a few seasons, those rookies will be entering their second contracts and we'll have tough decisions to make- you can't pay everyone these days. That means we have to continue to draft almost perfectly or the wheels start coming off the bus.

    I'm generally optimistic and I think we have a playoff team next season IF Tua develops some AND we get a reliable WR1 AND if we can keep this defense largely in-tact...yet we've already lost Van Noy. I have a feeling Howard is next and that one is really going to sting since he's virtually unreplaceable. So it's really tough to say who this team is past next season; so much depends on Tua really.

    I won't say that I'm nervous because I do have a lot of faith in Flores making it all work, so I'm expecting a winning record in 2021. But that doesn't mean we'll be making a deep playoff run and if it doesn't happen by year 4, this entire tear down will have been pretty much for nothing. The other aspect is that the Pats and Jets will both improve next season....NE gets their defensive starters back and the Jets just can't get any worse.....so time is really of the essence. To make Grier's words ring true, we have to have a great year this coming season and I don't know if it happens. We'll be good, but we need this team to be great for the timelines to fall into place.
     
  8. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I’m not gonna let one cut change my opinion but let’s just say I’ve had my doubts with Grier. I couldn’t be any happier with Flo but Grier has had too many misses to make me feel comfortable.

    The 2017 draft was a complete waste. The 2018 draft yielded us a kicker, an average LB and a good but not great TE. That doesn’t even account for selecting Tua over Herbert or the fact that we had 3 1st round picks last year, all of whom were underwhelming. We cannot afford to not have them develop or miss on this draft too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
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  9. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    One thing to consider is that the lower cap number is something that is not just happening this year, but it will be happening years down the road. There are going to be some penny pushing, the likes of which we have never seen in the NFL.

    This is going to be a very frustrating offseason for the NFL players.
     
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  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If I had to guess, we made the move anticipating to make a run at Watson...or they felt Van Ginkel was a suitable replacement on the cheap. The goal is to turn these rookies into leaders so maybe that makes sense all by itself; it doesn't feel that way though.
     
  12. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Van Noy is not going to be the only "big name" player cut this off-season.
     
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  13. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    It doesn't matter what other teams do or have to do. The question is, did WE have to do this? Our cap situation isn't so horrible that we have to cut someone like Van Noy. Clearing cap just to clear cap is asinine.
     
  14. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Sure. It's not really the 'big name' aspect that bothers me. I just wonder why him and not someone else, and then in the midst of all the other things. It's just a general concern about things.
     
  15. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    I'll start to be concerned when we sign crap in FA and really stink up the draft. There are things that are not ideal, like the OC thing and we could have been a little better in the draft, besides that I think we're looking quite good since Flores took over.
     
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  16. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I said after 2018 that we should drive a brinks truck to ozzie newsome.. especially with all those picks..
     
  17. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I think the sentiment is totally fair. Whether you love what Grier and/or Flores have done so far or hate it, this is their put up or shut up year.

    We all felt great after Sparano's first year but he couldn't sustain it. Will Flores prove different or just a rehash? This is the year we find out.

    Although it seems this offseason has dragged, it's actually barely begun. So it's fair to view the KVN cut with a raised eyebrow, but we also need to see how we follow it up, and how many other teams make similar cuts. Who will we bring in? Who will we draft? Which guys take a leap?

    The final measure is if we are a playoff team or not. If we are, that's a major sign we have a solid front office and coach pairing. If not, then we should be very concerned, certainly with Grier but also likely Flores.

    This is the year.
     
  18. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Given Van Noy's injuries and stats his cost put things over the top given Van Ginkel's performance with limited play. Compare their stats and Van Ginkel made more plays with less playing time. That is always a formula to lose your starting position or to get cut.

    Van Noy: - 61.6 overall grade
    - 811 snaps
    - 31 total pressures
    - 60.4 run d grade
    - 27 stops


    Van Ginkel: - 79.3 overall grade
    - 479 snaps
    - 19 total pressures
    - 77.6 run d grade
    - 22 stops
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
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  19. ripper1961

    ripper1961 Active Member

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    The draft this year will be a big indicator. We can reap some huge rewards with this draft if everything goes well. I am going to stay optimistic till then.
     
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  20. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I mean it's great that Van Ginkle looks so promising ... but now we have a hole after him. Instead of 2 good players, we have one.

    The whole story is yet to be told, but by being the first to make a move (or at least the first to be exposed as making a move) we opened ourselves up for criticism. Would have been better to hold it under wraps for a week.
     
  21. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Well, I'm not in the building and haven't heard anything, but I did read a report that they told Van Noy they were going to move on and trade or release him, and he nixed their trade efforts by leaking that he had been told we were releasing him.

    That might explain why it wasn't held under wraps.
     
  22. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    We shall see about 2020s draft soon enough. Three raw 1st round picks will typically result in uneven 1st year play. Grier did hit on the offensive line, upgrading every position the last two years. KVN cut not concerning at all, injury and production did not equal to cost. I am concerned about the OC turnstile.

    Beating bad teams put the Dolphins in a position to make the playoffs. Not drinking the cool-aide just yet. Beat someone, like the Bills first.
     
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  23. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  24. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Too much "Lemming" juice and too many "Lemming" droppings.

    A bunch of whinners and not too many winners in these posts!

    WE HAVE A TEAM THAT IS IN IT'S ASSENDANCY!

    What they did last year with the personnel that they had was nothing short of astonishing! ALL that and people are complaining - it boggles the mind.

    Since the hyperbolic boo-hoho has begun, let me point out a few obvious events that have occurred over the last two years.

    1) We have consistently improved as a team, based on our W-L record. I don't want to hear any tertiary complaints while this team, as a whole, keeps improving. Constantly improving is all that really counts.

    Some of you got your feelings hurt because the team cut or didn't draft your favorites. You know what they say in Russia about that kind of stuff? Toughski ****sky, and I agree with that.

    2) We have been put in the position to have very large drafts with several 1st round picks in the last draft and this upcoming draft. This speaks to how well the Front Office has DONE IT'S JOB!!!

    3) We have improved the overall personnel on this team across the board using last year's draft and an intelligent use of free agency i.e solid players on short contracts at reasonable (not too high) salaries.

    4) There has been nothing done to make me feel this upcoming draft and free agency will be any different. It always begins by taking steps to reduce our cap, which means trading off or letting some relatively good but expensive players go.

    I'm a homer, so what! Last year I predicted our W-L record accurately - Did you?

    I wasn't a fan of any particular QB to be drafted and I certainly had reservations about Tua due to the severity of his last injury. With that in mind, when we picked him I was happy enough with Fitz that I felt letting Tua sit for a year and learn and heal was the way to go. The coaches didn't see it that way and brought him in eventually to play. He played OK -not great or terrible and this was behind an undeveloped offensive line, which while improving, still needs some major step ups in improvement to allow any QB to be truly effective. We are getting there but are not there yet.

    This brings us to this years draft, cap space and free agency situation.

    1) We are all set to have another large draft with multiple 1st round picks. We are not in cap space hell like so many other teams and if we continue to draft reasonably well and to use free agency wisely, we are going to improve our team even more this year. I predict we will go 11-5 and possibly 12-4, depending a lot on how well we place in our division. This is not easy to predict with the teams in our division all catching up and beginning to surpass the Pats.

    2) It will be interesting to see how well we get set up for next years draft, but we won't know too much until the 1st game of the upcoming season.

    I see consistency of the front office and the coaching staff as the most important indicators of who we are and how we are doing.

    In the end, it's the W-L record that will tell the tail, not a bunch of "Lemmings"!!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  25. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Getting all those picks means nothing if you can't turn them into star players..
    The jury is still out but the last 4 1 s in last 2 drafts have turned into even 1 star player yet.Wilkins will never be that so will see what happens with the other 3.
     
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  26. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    First of all, it's "whiners." Second, posts on a message board don't win or lose anything. Players and coaches do that.

    No, we have a team that had one good season. If they're actually in their ascendancy (note the spelling), then we'll have another good season and make the playoffs this time.
     
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  27. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    @Irishman - You know you're on the right path when they don't address your well written post but instead just point out spelling and grammar mistakes. Great post.
     
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  28. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    No, I did address his post. You chose to ignore that because you have no argument. I addressed the parts I had a problem with. If I didn't comment on the rest it was because I didn't need to. Why don't you tell us which parts of what I said you disagree with instead.
     
  29. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that you recognize it takes 2 to 3 years to see how a draftee turns out.

    My observation is that only about 1/2 of 1st round picks turn out well, and that is across the league. I suspect that there is an attitude among many 1st round selections that consists of:

    1) See I made it, so I don't need to change or improve myself in any way.
    2) I was selected because I am a star, not a star in the making.
    3) You picked me, I didn't pick you, so don't lecture to me.
    4) Same bad attitude, different word sets to describe it.

    Just my opinion, but it is consistent with what I've observed over the years.
     
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  30. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    1) "Players and coaches do that." Absolutely; of course they do that through the use of players.

    2) "No, we have a team that had one good season." The second half of your sentence is correct. The first part of your sentence, the "No", is grammatically correct but factually wrong.

    We started with a team that had been at the 1st stage of redevelopment. It's first year was one with a tremendous set of changes in coaching and personnel. That we won any games at all was a miracle, but what ever our expectations were, It was the starting reference to compare improvements to. Last year we had a winning record with another significant change in personnel having been involved. It was much better then the previous years team.

    That describes ascendancy!

    3) Your post did demonstrate two important aspects of my use of the English language.

    1) I'm a lousy speller.
    2) I understand the meaning of the word "ascendancy", and you do not.
     
  31. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You don't seem to have an argument either.
    "No, we have a team that had one good season. If they're actually in their ascendancy (note the spelling), then we'll have another good season and make the playoffs this time."
    If we have another winning season you agree with him. Not a huge leap there so nothing to really comment on except being the grammar police.
     
  32. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    I don't mind you being a bad speller. But the message board has a spell check feature, at least when you're using it on a computer.
    And yes, I do understand the use of the word "ascendancy," and one good season doesn't make it an ascendancy. We've done this before, gone from a very bad season to a winning one, even a playoff season...and then dropped off again. If we're really in an ascendancy, we'll do better next year than we did this year.
     
  33. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Wrong again. You'd think you'd be tired of it by now. We don't know we're in an ascendancy until we maintain it. One good season doesn't mean we're on an upward track, it means we had one good season.
     
  34. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    And that is another reason why I would unload those picks for watson!
    Like u said only 50 percent workout anyway.
     
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  35. M1NDCRlME

    M1NDCRlME Fear The Spear

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    Rick you don't consider what happened in that first season to be part of the ascendancy? I'm legitimately asking, not being snarky. The team was gutted and predicted to be the worst in NFL history. They started out rough and by mid-season started the upward progression with really good wins and improved teamplay. They finished the season with more wins than anybody imagined were possible. By all accounts the exceeded expectations.

    The progression carried into last season and, for the most part, they again exceeded most expectations (even with starters opting out because of the virus).

    To me that is a trend and absolutely a team that is ascending. If they **** the bed this season, well, that puts and end to the upward progression (hopefully that doesn't happen and would be rectified in the following season).
     
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  36. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    No, I don't consider it to be part of an ascendancy. I consider it a good sign that Flores is a good coach, but we had a better record the year before and would have had a better record that season if we hadn't dumped everyone. 10-6 from 5-11 is a good season but not necessarily a trend. If we go 10-6 or 11-5 next season, then we're in an ascendancy.
     
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  37. Drizzy

    Drizzy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Is it just me or are the one and dones starting to stack up under Flores...whether it's his staff (O'Shea, Graham, Gailey, Marshall, Flaherty, Guglielmo) or his players (Minkah, Rosen, Van Noy, J Howard, Breida).
     
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  38. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Naw, not really. I'm more worried that Flores learned the wrong lessons from Belichick, that high-dollar veterans are disposable and should be unloaded before they wear out. Belichick was only able to get away with that because he had Tom Brady as a QB. We don't.
     
  39. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    It could say a lot of things but I’m gonna take it as he’s learning to be a HC, recognizes problems/opportunities and then takes corrective action swiftly. It would be hard to put Minkah, Rosen, Howard and Breida all on Flores.

    I think it’s also important to acknowledge that this was a complete rebuild and finding plug and play FA is a part of that strategy, even though they aren’t long term solutions.
     
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  40. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Clearly, he's got more important 'FISH to fry - LOL
     

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