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Star Wars Episode VII

Discussion in 'TV, Music and Movies' started by Bruzer, Nov 28, 2014.

  1. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    Rose was actually one of my favorite parts of the last movie. I was sad that her part was minimized in this one.
     
  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    The Harrison Ford scene was one I actually liked.

    It felt like one of the few moments where it looked like JJ Abrams actually watched TLJ or TFA.
     
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  3. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Actually all three that I mentioned worked well in The Last Jedi, this time they didn't seem to click with the script, poor character development or maybe the The Last Jedi was as far as you could take them.
     
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  4. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    I liked it to a point because Hans Solo was always my favorite character in the series, it just didn't click for me though I did like the way Kylo found Ben inside him, the good won over evil.
     
  5. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    So apparently a late draft of Trevorrow's script just leaked this afternoon and honestly it sounds way better.

    Essentially, it had Finn and Rose steal a star destroyer and then get tasked to activate the old beacon in the Coruscant Jedi Temple to call a newly inspired (by Luke) gaxy together. While there, they are captured, but Finn escapes and convinces others to defect and make his own army to complete the mission.

    Kylo finds a Holocron on Mustafar, goes to a sith world and meets an ancient sith being (described as a Lovecraftian ghoul) and fights a vision of Vader, all while sarcastically tormented by force ghost Luke.

    Rey finishes training and she and Poe hunt down Kylo. She tries to redeem him but fails and it seems kills him with help from Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke. Then they go and lead the Resistance and reformed galaxy against the First Order joining with Finn and Rose.

    If I had to guess, Disney didn't like Kylo not getting redeemed and Trevorrow didn't want to budge but I have real knowledge.

    The whole script really sounds like it logically built from TFA and TLJ and made effective use of characters rather than shunting them off, going back to a dry well by ignoring TLJ and then shoehorning in Palpatine.

    I think Disney made a mistake. It would be interesting to know why they made the change.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  6. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    That does sound like it would have been a much more logical movie than what we got, and probably more fun as well.

    Its basically the opposite problem from the prequels. Then, you had Lucas doing everything he wanted, with no one apparently there to serve as another set of eyes, telling him what really worked and what didn't. Just a bunch of yes men. Now, you have too many cooks in the kitchen, no one person leading it all, and it becomes a mess.

    Its too bad that Star Wars doesn't seem to have anything like Marvel does, with one clear big outline laid out years in advance, all the movies sticking to that plan and keeping with the theme, and being produced by someone who knows exactly what needs to be done. With the Skywalker saga apparently over, maybe they can start fresh and do something like that from this point on.
     
  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I think Marvel gets way too much credit for having one clear big outline. They have a cool throughline that I love, however, if you really pay attention it is a big mess. Things started to make more sense after Age of Ultron.
     
  8. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Yeah I am guessing that they wanted to leave things somewhat open-ended to allow writers and directors more creative freedom, but at the same time, a basic outline or certain plot points probably would have gone a long way toward a more coherent vision. Bringing back Abrams was a mistake though.

    As I noted, RoS was enjoyable, but it could have been much much more. The decision to go back to Abrams who decided he didn't like TLJ and do an active retcon was a cash forward move by Disney that sacrificed a meaningful film to play it safe and throw out fan service better served for a TV show or "filler" movie like Rogue One.

    I think the Trevorrow script also shows some of what (imo) is wrong about arguments that Johnson didn't like Luke/The Skywalkers and wanted to kill the franchise - the idea of Luke sacrificing himself to inspire the galaxy ironically doing what he was dismissive of at the end of TLJ turning into an iconic theme of the final movie with Luke getting more screentime harassing Kylo sounds great. I also maintain that many of the "problems" of TLJ started in TFA where Abrams set up some interesting plot points but also neglected to include Luke at all and instead focused on ultimately meaningless ideas like Snoke and Rey's lineage. In the original scripting, Rey's parents remain nobodys, but appear to have been killed by Kylo under order from Snoke, making his manipulation and inability to come back to the "light" side more interesting as well.

    Ultimately, the Rise of Skywalker was a decent enough film on it's own, but as a continuation and final act of a trilogy imo it was a failure, even if it is still enough to be entertained. I likely will rewatch it more than the prequels, but not as much as the original trilogy or other two movies from the final trilogy.
     
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  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Agreed. Abrams is all flash and no substance. Star Wars is great because it has substance and character work. Those are Abrams two biggest weaknesses.
     
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  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I think the two major problems with RoS, was that Abrams had to deal with the absolute **** that was TLJ and had to cobble together an end for Leia with already shot footage.
     
  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Gonna have to entirely disagree with that premise. The Trevorrow script shows that TLJ left plenty to work with. I get that you personally hate the movie and have some wild ideas about Johnson hating the franchise and whatnot, but while you dislike a movie, it objectively in no way left Abrams with nothing to go from.

    The Leia thing was difficult to handle. Honestly, I almost wish they had gone ahead and cut her out, the scenes with her felt very forced. I understand the desire to have her final film be a bigger role, but imo it didn't feel like a genuine performance (because it wasn't).

    Abrams is just not a good finisher, and not great with character advancement.
     
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  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Exactly. Abrams idea of character advancement is to have people talk about nothing and have the camera swirl around them with dramatic music.

    Nothing in the TLJ made Abrams "kill" chewy and then show him 5 minutes later completely O.K.
     
  13. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    Either way, what's done is done. These characters are probably all retired. My hope is that they take some time off, hire some really smart people who also care deeply about the material, think a long time about a great long term plan moving forward, and then work to put things into action for the next set of films. Do it gradually, give the characters room to breathe and grow, and don't try to cram to much into one movie.
     
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  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Abrams teed the franchise up for the next guy. Johnson, clearly, hated everything Abrams set up and did everything he could to destroy that Abrams' effort. Abrams returned the favor.
     
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  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Nothing in the Force awakens made Johnson do anything he did, from the stupid arc on that gambling planet, to Mary Poppins Leia, to the destruction of Luke's character.

    I'm not saying Abrams did it all right either. He didn't.
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I do not agree with that at all.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I don't think you paid attention the Last Jedi, because of the arc on the gambling planet and the supposed destruction of Luke's character was perfectly set up in The Force Awakens.

    You might not like the answer, however The Last Jedi at least looked like a movie that saw TFA.

    The Mary Poppins Leia complaint IMO is one of the dumbest. The shot wasn't the best, but a magic person doing magic was very much set up because she is magic.

    Unlike the in the ROS the Emperor, Rey being a Paltapine, A stupid @#$#@$ knife that exactly lined up with the Death Star wreckage to find a stupid McGuffin when Star Wars lore have so many stupid McGuffins, only to destroy that McGuffin a few moments later, to Storm Troopers leaving because of the force, to the waste of space no homo Po and Finn side women who one might be Lando's daughter, to Finn having something to say to Rey and never saying it, to thousands of ships and people coming from no where, to weird chanting people who came from no where, to so many dumb #$#$ing things.

    I hate the prequels due to their bad writing and bad editing and bad craftmanship, but they made much more sense than the stupid freaking Rise of Skywalker.
     
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  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    You cannot agree with it, but that doesn't make it not accurate.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    It also doesn't make it not not accurate.
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Like I said, I'm not saying Abrams did everything right. Force Awakens was vastly superior to the last two, however and I believe had Johnson not had a clear and obvious disdain for the Skywalker story and the stuff Abrams teed up, we'd have had a much better final three parter.
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Exactly, you agreeing with it, has no bearing on the reality of it at all.
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Honestly I think it is the fan reaction as the entire JJ Abrams third movie seemed to exist as to please the most fans.

    Even you though dislike The Last Jedi, it was critically acclaimed and does have a solid fan base.

    The Rise of Skywalker is critically panned and mostly has apologists and people who just like seeing Star Wars stuff.

    I do not see this "disdain" that you see. It doesn't seem obvious to me at all.

    Abrams failed because when it comes to character and story, he is not very good at either.
     
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  23. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Yes he tee'd up a sequel, but he did that "mystery box" deal he loves to do where he just poses a whole load of open-ended stuff. That Johnson decided not to view every single one through an obvious/cliche lens isn't a negative. And ultimately, he should be correct in that - Rey's lineage doesn't have to be important, and that theme would have come through in the Trevorrow script, where Kylo is revealed to have killed her parents and hunted down force sensitives for Snoke, and at the end she is shown teaching a new generation of force users a more balanced version than the archaic Jedi mantras that got wiped out in the prequels. Snoke was also not important, he was a side plot, a red herring - Kylo was the bad guy all along.

    Abrams going tit for tat and essentially trying to erase 8 just felt kind of lame. At least they tried a few hand-waves, but JJ never should have been allowed to do 9. I am not saying they should have brought in Johnson either, but going back to the JJ well was always going to be what they perceived as "safe and fan servicey" and it turned out an aggressively OK movie instead of a great movie.

    I agree with Dupree - many of the things people claim to hate about 8 started with 7. Johnson didn't make Luke a recluse hiding away from his failure, JJ and Kathleen Kennedy and the team from 7 did that. Johnson simply explored that dynamic and then rebuilt him into an inspiring figure who was supposed to help motivate both the Resistance specifically and the galaxy at large with a heroic sacrifice (ironically by doing the one thing he said wouldn't work - the movie has TONS of parallelism of that nature). It was going to be bigger than him and a way to pass the torch.

    The Leia scene ... like who the ** cares? It was visually interesting and a new use of the Force we hadn't seen before. If you want to make the argument that they should have left Leia dead in space, I probably wouldn't argue, but I don't know if they had the time to re-edit the other scenes after her passing to do that. I do think it played a little more oddly because of the passing - I did kind of expect that scene to be her death, but I didn't freak out when she came back. It was also meant to be symbolic imo, kind of an angelic figure coming back to her wards to help guide them.

    The Casino scene I wasn't a huge fan of, but it had its place and the themes were relevant and necessary. It just wasn't as tight as it needed to be, and Rose and Finn made oddly poor decisions.

    We can certainly nitpick and quibble, but every SW movie has weird bits and strange bits and things that struggle to bear up under close scrutiny. The new trilogy simply isn't masked by nostalgia the way the originals were. I didn't hate Rise of Skywalker, I enjoyed it, I won't refuse to see it again. I just think it was something of a missed opportunity. Overall, I think Disney did a poor job of handling the sequel trilogy. I think the Mandalorian and Rogue One shows they can do some interesting and compelling stories, but I think they definitely need to get away from the Skywalker dominated universe (which Johnson tried to set up) to do so.

    The rumor I heard was the next set of media (including perhaps both TV series and a movie/movies) are supposedly set some 400ish years prior to the rise of Palpatine/prequel events. It may include a young Yoda, but otherwise have no real connection to the other stories and will explore the "High Republic" before the decline. I look forward to it, but hope they leave JJ on the sideline.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
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  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    And you saying it has no bearing on reality either.

    What is even the point of bringing up your point?

    We both have opinions. We come on a board to share them.
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I don't hate Rise of Skywalker. I do think it is very, very, very stupid.

    I want to see a Darth Bane movie or TV show.
     
  26. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Is he still cannon?
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    The Clone Wars are canon. His Holocron was found in one of the last episodes of The Clone Wars.

    If the show had a few more episodes, the showrunner was going to make Darth Revan canon. Which apparently, I just learned by googling The Rise of Skywalker made him canon by naming a Storm Trooper regiment after him.
     
  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    So Johnson subverting Abrams decision is awesome, but Abrams subverting Johnson's vision is hacky?

    Johnson, set the tone with the first shot with Luke throwing away the lightsaber. From there, they tried to make him a bizarre and different character than he has ever been. Even the reason for his self exile was retconned from Abrams' FA to a weird attempted murder plot, that doesn't even make sense in canon, because the same stuff (more or less, extremely powerful, darkness in him) was said about Luke when he was younger that he sensed in Kylo....and on top of that it was his family. For god's sake, Luke wouldn't even kill Vader who was full blown evil, but he considered killing Kylo before he even turned? Stupid, stupid, stupid decision by Johnson. Johnson did has much damage to Luke's character as the prequels did to Vader's character, in a third of the movies.

    I'm hardly the first person to complain about Forcey Poppins. I don't even mind so much the power, it just looked really very stupid. I mean, I also didn't like the sudden healing and resurrection powers in RoS, either. I don't like it when in world rules are broken or changed for plot convenience. But regardless, bringing up Mary Poppins wasn't because it ruined the movie for me, it was just evidence of another stupid decision.

    Look, cards on the table, I really appreciate the animal rights undertones in Rian Johnson's movie and a big part of that was due to the casino act. However, I felt like it was an unnecessary part of the movie.

    We can complain about the interconnectedness of the Skywalker and Palapatines, but that is literally what the last two trilogies we're about. This was ONE story in the universe. Johnson bucking against that, in the Skywalker/Palapatine saga, shows a disdain for that part of the story.

    I'd be all for Johnson telling us a different trilogy in the SWU. Just like I'm all about the Mandalorian. I just don't understand, ****ting on major characters all while saying the point of the saga shouldn't be the point of the saga at movie #8 of 9.
     
  29. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I guess I just don't see it in the same light. In no way, shape or form do I consider anything about TLJ "****ting" on anything.

    Yes, it is a different Luke, one who is decades older, who came off an early high point (the Rebels win, he redeems Vader) to a low point (he felt unable to stop Ben's dark side leanings). He wasn't going to kill Ben, he just didn't know what to do, and made a rash decision (rash decisions, hmm) to confront Ben who interpreted it wrongly and attacked.

    The throwing of the saber was brilliant imo. Yes, it was a subversion of expectation, and Luke even explained as much when he asked Rey "What did you expect, me to come in swinging a laser sword and save the day?" If that's what JJ and Disney wanted, they should have put that in from the start. But again, the great twist is that after tearing himself down, he DOES come to the same realizations as he had in Jedi and came back and saved the day by swinging around his sword. He died a hero with a fully realized character arc, showing struggle and internal conflict and regret for his past. It was JJ who left Johnson with the need to come up with a reason why Luke ducked out on a galaxy in need. Losing his pupils to Snoke and then - if just for a moment - forgetting his way lead to a disaster. After all his success, all his glory, having a shot like that could easily destroy a person's will. TLJ was a journey of redemption for Luke as much as it was a story of adventure and heroism for Rey and the Resistance.


    Ultimately, if JJ, Kennedy and Disney wanted this trilogy to be full of Lightsaber Luke hacking and slashing his way through the galaxy, that should have been made clear to start with. Frankly, it would have likely been a weird combination of fun yet boring, kind of like the prequels in a way. Duel of the Fates from Episode One was a great lightsaber battle, but it was surrounded by so much nonsense that it just kind of all fell flat.

    I think it's totally fair to say that you didn't like the interpretation of Luke as portrayed, but saying things like it was intentionally done just to be spiteful or whatever? Nah.
     
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  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    :amen::amen::amen::amen:
     
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  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I think it is odd that we are acting like there is no middle ground between hacking and slashing Luke and attempted murder Luke who drinks blue milk fresh from the tap because SUBVERSION!!!!!!.

    I wasn't asking for a hacking and slashing Luke either, btw.

    He died a coward who never left the island. He destroyed the Jedi order and essentially sent a force-fax.

    You are also telling me that Johnson didn't dislike what came before his movie, then tout the fact that he purposely subverted all of it because he wasn't left anything to work with.

    And none of that even includes the fact that Johnson purposely separated the main 3 characters for the entirety of the movie never letting them actually grow their bond.

    And again, I am not saying RoS was great or even that good. I disliked a lot of it, but Johnson killed that franchise for me.
     
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  32. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    He didn't leave because he couldn't - they poignantly showed his X-Wing sunk, but that didn't stop him. If he didn't die a hero that is again on JJ. The Trevorrow script clearly indicates that Luke's sacrifice became known to the galaxy and a rallying cry. And there was no attempted murder - he was not going to murder Ben. They showed that scene 3 times, once from Luke's faulty perspective (he just wanted a friendly chat), once from Ben's faulty perspective (THIS is where Luke wanting to murder Ben is shown. It is false!) and then the truth - Luke didn't know what to do. A moment of rashness appears where he sort of considers it, but clearly drops the idea as the absurdity it was, but at that point Ben wakes and panics/gives in to his dark impulses and attacks Luke. I am literally watching Return of the Jedi and it really mirrors the similar scene in Return were Luke is contemplating killing Vader before he decides against it. With Ben, it was a flash and it was gone, it was never a serious idea, he just didn't know what to do.

    No not at all. That he didn't do simple or cliched followups doesn't mean he didn't approve of the setup or had nothing to work with. I am saying, however, that some of the decisions you seem to disagree with started in Episode 7, not 8. And I liked 7 quite a bit, and 8 a lot more. 8 built on the important things (the Kylo/Rey dynamic, Luke's character arc, the plight of the resistance, the theme of the ordinary person/anybody becoming a hero or doing great deeds) more than the unimportant (Rey's parents, Snoke's origin story). JJ is a pretty good starter, it's where the mystery box storytelling works best. He threw a number of things out there, Johnson took what he felt mattered and tried to advance that while smartly tossing other bits (like Snoke's death leading to the bad*** fight with the guards, then to Rey/Kylo force gripping the saber, then to Hux about to shoot Kylo - funny as hell!) to the wayside or even incorporating them into themes.

    I don't entirely disagree with this. I do wonder if Disney tried to introduce too many characters though, it's really hard to juggle 5+ big roles. Essentially, what JJ did in 7 was focus on the new trio firstly, then drop Han/Chewie into the mix, while Leia kept a backseat. Johnson mostly paired everyone off with their opposites to drive each other. Poe and Leia, Finn and the newly created Rose, Rey and Luke.

    I dunno man, that sucks. I don't really understand such a visceral reaction, hope you can enjoy the unrelated stuff they are doing. Maybe try rewatching from a different perspective, read some positive articles on it and view through a new lens? Remember that for it's time, Empire was considered kind of a weird black sheep as well, but may have matured the best of the 3. Ultimately though, no movie will thrill and capture every viewer. Sometimes, for some people, it just doesn't work.
     
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  33. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Season 7 of Clone Wars was super satisfying. Imagine if Filoni had written the sequel trilogy. A missed opportunity for sure.
     
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  34. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Rewatched Episodes 8 and 9 again. I still understand some of the frustration with 8, but overall, it's an excellent film, and absolutely gorgeous. Johnson knows his stuff in that department.

    9 as a stand-alone film probably would have been ... ok. But as the continuation of a series of films it did an atrocious job. I kind of like it, but also kind of really dislike it. Bringing back JJ and giving him free reign to essentially completely retcon the prior movie - which was good! - was an egregious error. It just made everything worse. Just so many hard to suspend disbelief moments and things that make no real sense. It was essentially just a glorified fanservice movie.

    Anyway, got around to the final season of Clone Wars on D+ and it was pretty solid stuff. The Bad Batch episodes were fun, even if the characters were over-exaggerated. Some of the Ashoka episodes were a little slow, but once you realize how close they are to the Episode 3 movie, it get's very intense very quickly. The final episode was super dense, and the
    where Rex and Ashoka bury their former clone compatriots, then Vader shows up some time after they are gone and finds her lightsaber. Whew, that was some cinematic quality stuff right there.

    IMO if you liked the prior seasons you will definitely enjoy the last season. If you didn't like them, probably not changing your mind. I felt it was fun to see the concurrent paths these characters take alongside the prequels. While I still think the movies themselves are largely garbage, the cartoon adds a ton of depth and characterization and emotional investment that was missing.
     
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  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I found it sad that with a few tweaks it could have been a fine movie. Plus the elimination of the dagger. I hate the dagger. I hate the dagger so much. More than the special bullet in Batman v. Superman.

    Rise of Skywalker just cemented my feeling that JJ Abrams is not that good of a director.
     
  36. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    Honestly, I've been thinking about it, and I like the prequels more than 8 or 9. Not they they're excellent films, but they were fun all the same, and still are for the most part today. They can be silly, and there are certainly places that are even cringeworthy watching them now, but they moved and mostly made sense within their own conext.

    On the flip side, 8 and 9 might be really well made films, but they take it to the opposite extreme, being too serious, too slow and too dark to fit in with the rest of the movies up to that point, IMO.

    I watched a few episodes of The Clone Wars when it started, but I couldn't get into it. It wasn't what I expected or was looking for, and went in directions that I wasn't interested in. I haven't gotten back into it since.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I am one of the weird people who really like 8. I like it a lot. I love the question it asks. I like the way it answers most of them. I like how it plays with 7.

    While there are some things I don't like about it, for the most part I love it.
     
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  38. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I watched 8 straight through again last week, and just don't have a positive feel for it. There are parts that I like, especially at the beginning, but it just doesn't move the way that I want it too, and I just flat out dislike the direction that they took most of the characters in. I thought that 7 set things up really well, and that it could have been awesome from there on. But no dice.
     
  39. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Dec 11, 2007
    Maybe that is the difference. I thought 7 did not set things up well. I felt mostly empty after watching 7. It was enjoyable, but had way too many questions.

    I love the killing of Snoke for instance. I thought that was perfect.
     
  40. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    That specific instant in 8 was very good, though in watching it again, I feel that they made it too obvious what was going to happen instead of having it be a surprise. And the idea that Ray and Kylo then fought together was cool.....but the fight itself wasn't all that well done, and the aftermath of it was a real downer.
     
    Dol-Fan Dupree likes this.

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