Sports Buzz ....Tanny gets rave reviews...Scout disses our WRs

I tend to believe that between the TE, RB's and WR's Miami will move the ball just fine through the air. The key is red zone performance. If someone steps up in that area the offense will be improved. I'm already bored with the fantasy football mentality that we must have a # 1 WR.

 

I said it was a perfect marriage of his skills and that offense, even though the offense didn't require a great receiver. Maybe I under estimated how well known he was outside this region. When I say relatively unknown I speak from a fan base standpoint and not from a team personnel standpoint. It is obvious that most teams knew who he was. I do not have rose colored glasses on regarding the receiver corp. Hard to do that when the best possible fits for this offense are all young players, most rookies. Miller and Egnew being rookies as well, it might be safe to say the most reliable guys in this offense to start with will be Bess, Hartline, or Fasano, and not to forget, Bush. And beyound the youth of the players, is the fact the offense is new. That will be a tough enough transition. If this team goes 500 or better, then that will be a major accomplishment.

 

Personally I think all this stuff about not needing good receivers in this offense, and/or this lack of talent at the position being great because there's no true #1 receiver...I think it's hogwash. I think it's optimism getting away from reality.

I don't care what system you're running, you need receiving talent. There's no system out there that rewards a lack of talent as opposed to having talent. If there were, every single team would run that system. And then once they did, you'd be back to square one with the teams that have better talent doing better than the teams without talent.

This isn't a good thing. It's a bad thing. But you can't do everything at once and Miami had to prioritize the quarterback position because it's far more important. Look no further than our own history. This receivers unit is eerily similar to 2008's receivers unit. Clyde Gates = Ted Ginn, Brian Hartline = Greg Camarillo and Davone Bess = Davone Bess. I know people are going to try and say so-and-so is better than so-and-so, blah blah blah, whatever, they're right in the neighborhood that matters more than the minutae in this case. But anyway 2008 featured the worst WRs unit the team has had in the years Ireland has been year, but it also featured the most success the team has had in the years since Ireland's been here. Why? Scheduling and quarterback. Chad Pennington had a renaissance, gave us the best quarterback play the team has had since Dan retired. That's the more important thing to address and the Dolphins used a valuable resource trying to make sure they address it long term.

This is a long term building project. Ryan Tannehill is going to need to spend 2012 learning rather than performing, one way or another. I hope he stays on the bench and is only put on the field in select situations designed for success. We can tackle the receiver position in future years, once we have a better idea of which guys are going to be worthy assets in this system and which are not. My feeling is Brian Hartline has a future in the system but Davone Bess and potentially Clyde Gates do not. And right now the rookies have a hell of a fight on their hands to even be NFL worthy, let alone worthy of this system.

 

I don't think it's hogwash. I also don't think that saying we don't need a #1 WR is the same as saying we don't need receiving talent. Nobody is saying that we should just do a fan lottery and start whatever lucky fans pick the right numbers. You still need receiving talent. Philbin just seems to prefer to have three receivers that are capable of producing 60 receptions rather than one who produces 100 receptions and two that produce 40 receptions. There are also some differences of opinion as to how close we are to having those three receivers and whether enough was done in that area. Personally, I feel we have two receivers capable of that production level in place and two (Gates, Egnew) who might be able to fill that third production slot. I also think that Bush has some unique talents that will take up some of that burden. I don't see it as inconceivable that we'll get enough production from those three. And IMO, whether those guys are successful at filling that third production slot this year is pretty irrelevant. I see this as a building process where the right decision was finally made to try and address the QB position first. If our third production slot only produces 30-40 receptions this season, that's a small price to pay. I believe in developing players. I think we've added enough receiving talent to give us a reasonable chance of getting the level of production we want out of our passing game. I would always prefer more, but I think there's talent there. If the receivers we have show enough then I will happily go into the season with just those guys. If they don't look ready then we'll pick up one of the dozens of veteran WRs that will become available as the other teams cut guys. And then next year I'd look to add more receiving talent. Actually, I'll probably look to do that regardless.

 

I think it's bull **** that this no-talent situation is viewed to somehow be better. The bottom line is the Green Bay Packers have two guys in Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson that have the talent to be #1 receivers. They're not talent poor at the position, they're talent rich, but somehow this is held up as the example that a talent poor team like Miami should look up to and feel better about thier talent poor status. It's like saying we're OK at the receiver position because after all, look at what the St. Louis Rams had in 1999 through 2001, they had nobody special, just a system that spread the ball around and was plug and play, blah blah blah.

 

Jennings..Nelson..best one two punch in the league imo.

 

I'm not aware that anyone said that.

 

Exactly. But because there are two of those as opposed to just one, we're supposed to believe that the cadre of Brian Hartline, Davone Bess, Clyde Gates and some 6th-7th rounders plus UDFAs are better for us than if we had Brandon Marshall or someone with real talent. It's just not equivalent. They have two Brandon Marshalls. We don't even have one anymore. We need to get some!

I think Brian Hartline is a good player and he'll stick around a while in this system. He plays all three positions. He's faster than people realize, so he can hit you deep in certain situations. He's got great balance and pretty good quickness, so he can play the slot and get open that way. He shows very good ability to pull in passes on the sideline and toe tap. This is not a system that relies on specialists, it relies on generalists...and that's Hartline's game.

I don't think Davone Bess fits longer term because he's not really a mismatch player, not really a guy that is suited to play all three receiver positions. I think of him as more of a specialist than generalist. Same with Clyde Gates.

To the extent that I have hope for Rishard Matthews and Derek Moye, it's because I see the kind of versatility and perimeter ability this offense covets in their games.

 

I agree that the WRs haven't done anything to warrant much confidence, but at the same time I don't think you can compare Brandon Marshall to what we're looking for. There is a good chance Brandon Marshall would blow up 5 games into the season. And I don't mean "blow up" in a good way.

 

Very good wideouts. They also have the benefit of a great QB throwing to them.

However, back to my point... Jennings and Nelson aren't exactly Fitzgerald and Megatron.

 

I think Brandon Marshall's "blow ups" tend more toward the off season than the regular season. I think he's produce just fine in this offense. But there's no point paying him, a veteran, like $10 million a year while you wait for a young quarterback to get good.

 

They're closer to being Fitzgerald or Megatron than any player on Miami's roster is to being Jennings or Nelson.

 

They may not be those guys but, I think a lot of folks discount their talent level, I would take Jordy over Marshall, as a combination Fitzgerald/Floyd should give them a run.

 

Yea I dont get it either. People keep saying GB doesnt draft WRs high. But Jennings was a 2nd rounder. And despite having Jennings, Nelson, James Jones and Donald Driver, they selected WR Cobb in the 2nd round. Not sure where these people get that GB doesn't value WRs...so Miami won't neither.

I think the obvious reason we didn't acquire top WRs this off season was #1 cap and how high they went in FA. And #2, we had to many needs, to fill them all in one off season is unrealistic

 

I would say that going into 2008, nobody thought about Jennings and Nelson as a great 1-2 punch. Jennings best year to that point was 53 and 920. That isn't hugely different than Bess' best year of 79 and 820 playing with much worse QBs. Nelson was a former walk-on who became 2nd round pick after one great year at Kansas State. The best comparison is probably Matthews 6'2" 215 4.44 (Nelson was 6'3" 217 4.45). I wouldn't say that Hartline is as well thought of as Driver was, but I would say that I believe he has the talent to equal the 72 and 1012 that Driver produced that year. Their next most productive receiver in 2008 was TE Donald Lee with 39 and 303. I see several players on the roster that could potentially surpass that. So I'm not saying that we're set at receiver. I'm saying that we're not that different than in terms of talent and potential than GB was in 2008.

 

Last year our WRs "accomplished":

[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]REC[/td]
[td]YDS[/td]
[td]AVG[/td]
[td]LONG[/td]
[td]TDs[/td]
[td]YDS/G[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]280[/td]
[td]3425[/td]
[td]12.2[/td]
[td]65[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]214.1[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Anyone want to bet our WR corps beat those stats this year? Because I'm willing to guarantee they do.

 

I would agree that GB does target WRs in that second round range and that this year we had many needs and had to prioritize. I just think that this draft was particularly deep at WR and that a guy like Matthews might have as much talent as some of those 2nd round guys but slipped due to his injury and the deep draft. I also think that Gates is a guy with enough talent to produce at those levels. Will they? It all comes down to evaluation and obviously people have different opinions on the level of talent at WR. I wouldn't say that we have a Jennings level talent on the team. I believe that Jennings is capable of more production if he were on a team that funneled more passes his way. But I would say that we have receivers and other skill positions on the team that are capable of producing as much as GB did in 2008 using a similar system.

 

The level of talent is not known at this point due to lack of experience. We do not know what talent is on the roster. I will say that I am not wearing rose colored glasses. I would find it amazing for this team to go 500, but I expect worse. I do know Philbin wants to develop his own talent. That will not happen over night. And most of the wrs on the Packer roster were higher round picks(2nd round). Driver and Jones I believe were drafted lower. They have talent. The 49er receivers had talent including Rice. But given the "farm grown" approach I keep hearing about, I doubt the Dolphins will trade or sign a big name receiver, and allow some of these younger guys to develop. I don't disagree that Bess might be in some trouble. Wallace and Moore possess more size and speed. I like Hartline. Not especially excited about the new receiver signed. In an idea universe I would love for guys like Fuller, Moye, and Matthews to develop from point one. A better way to argue the talent thing is to say that maybe first round receivers may not be a necessity, even though Rice was a high first rounder. Green Bay had an excellent scouting department. For all the failures in Miami in the higher rounds other than the first, Green Bay has done well. All semantics. Anyone who plays in the NFL today needs talent. Decent speed, route running, use of feet, and flexibility. It will be interesting to see how Philbin compensates for lack of experience at wr.

 

your right we don't truly know what's going to transpire amongst some of the younger players, but I don't think Wallace and Moore have shown enough in their 3 years here to keep me from drafting some more,so drafting the wide receivers, we're a must, I just would of went higher in the draft for specific players. I thought the weakness was pretty substantial..

 

To me this is highly argumentative. It's like if you're cheating on your girlfriend and she becomes convinced you're cheating on her and accuses you, but you don't think she has very good evidence so you say she's just being paranoid because she doesn't REALLY "know" that you're cheating on her. Except you are. Just because CERTAIN people were not aware of the talent of guys like Jennings and Nelson, doesn't mean they were not even back then very talented players. They were, it was just unrecognized (by some).

I've asked you this before. Bottom line, no dancing around it, no argumentation or fancy hypotheticals or other ways of saying "you never know"...you have to bet your career on the answer of this question and it's a straight up yes or no question: there is a Greg Jennings/Jordy Nelson on the current Miami Dolphins roster, yes or no? Simple, direct, yes or no. Go.

 

So you think there are guys like Jordy Nelson and Greg Jennings on this roster? Yes or no. Don't dance around it.

 

Potentially, there could be guys like that after development. Moye, Fuller, and Matthews could be that good with development. Nelson and Jennings I believe were 2nd round picks. Obviously the three I mentioned were either low round or undrafted. I personally like the potential of those three. And I like Cunningham more than you do. Are they like Nelson and Jennings right now? Absolutely not. And Egnew is not like any of the Packer tight ends right now either. With that in mind, this could be a long year. I have no illusions about that.

 

I disagree with you there. Put either on a team where they are the bell-cow at wideout... and where they no longer have the league MVP throwing to them... and I doubt very seriously they'd be anywhere near as effective as Fitz or Megatron.

 

I answered that above. I don't think we have a Jennings comparison, but I do think we have a Nelson comparison.. I also think we could have our Finley in Egnew (decent chance) or even Brown (long shot chance). I would also say we have far more talent at RB that would carry some of the burden. I would say that we have enough talent at the skill positions (other than QB) to produce at GB's 2008 level. And I think that Tannehill has the talent to get to Rodger's level, but I don't think he could do that this year.

 

I can give you my answer. In my opinion, no.

Am I worried about it? Not in the least. I don't think the Phins are scary in the least, but they can be effective throwing the ball. They have enough guys to spread it around and move the chains.

IMO, they still need a true threat at Z, and a seam-buster at TE. Might have to wait until next year for those. However, as much as I hate to admit it, Marshall wasn't going to be that guy. Too much baggage, too many drops, too much finger-pointing to outweigh the talent.

 

No. You would have to be crazy to do that.

But I'm not sure exactly what that proves? If the WRs turn out to be Jennings/Nelson then that means that our QB is playing at a high-level. Essentially we would be a Super Bowl contender if two of our WRs turn out to be Jennings/Nelson.

You could apply the same type question to almost every team in the league. There are ~25 teams in the league that have glaring weaknesses.

 

It was a yes or no question. Fail.

 

So you believe that a few years down the road, Rishard Matthews is a Jordy Nelson. OK.

 

C'mon now, isn't your entire reputation built on "potential"? The whole point of scouting is gauging potential. Even what you're saying now is potential. How can Lee or anyone guarantee someone's success?

 

Relying on "potential" is a way of denying the simple reality that you do NOT think there is a player of that caliber on roster right now.

 

How can one answer without seeing what offense we will employ, and with limited game reps given to the players by the previous regime?

 

I think the Dolphins will be shown to have one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL during the 2012 season. There is not a single receiver in the group who scares the defensive backs on the opposing team. It would not surprise me in the least if the Dolphins don't once again have one of the lowest scoring offenses in the NFL.

I see this off season as below average when it comes to upgrading the overall talent on the roster. Hopefully after another season in which the Dolphins finish below 500 and probably in last place in the AFC East, Ross will finally see the light and decide to hire a GM who actually knows how to build a winning football team.

 

You just said that you think Miami is going to have a good offense.

 

I gave you my answer later in the text. Absolutely not.

 

We only have two WRs that have seen any real time though and none of them in this new offense.

 

It's a pretty simple yes or no question. You either think there's a player on roster with that skill level, or you don't.

 

See this is the problem. You ask if someone THINKS someone else has the skill or not, but then say you can't use potential as a factor. Not only that but who could say Nelson & Jennings will play like Nelson & Jennings coming out of college without using potential?

 

Why is that a problem? If I ask you if you think the world is ending tomorrow or not, are you going to bore me with a thousand words about the potential for it to go either way? Maybe there's a time and place for that, but if I ask you to cut the bullsh-t and tell me your prediction/evaluation, why can't you do it?

It's a useful exercise because everyon tries to not be wrong by couching themselves and talking about potential and hypotheticals, etc. Do you think one day we're going to be talking about one or two of these receivers as a Greg Jennings or Jordy Nelson, or not? Bottom line.

 

Most of the WRs we have, haven't played significant time in the NFL. Bess & Hartline we've seen enough of in the NFL to say, but none of the other guys really.

 

Based on current talent the answer is no. And that includes the guys on the roster prior to the rookies. I actually am less optimistic about them as the new kids on the block. I am optimistic Philbin can develop talent and that is what keeps me positive.